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Round 2, Vote 4 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
11-25-2012, 10:59 AM
  #326
Mike Farkas
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On Holecek. (Apologies in advance for my use of simplified Latin letters without Czech markings/letters/etc.)

http://sport.idnes.cz/dominik-hasek-...2012_sport_noc

From the Dec. 1998. A poll of 50 experts on Czech hockey (and Bobby Clarke, apparently) that vote on the best players in Czech history. I believe it says that Dzurilla was not included in the voting - is he not Czech? Is he considered a Slovak?

Mind you, this is from Dec. 1998. Already Hasek was a near-unaminous winner. Holecek did not place in the top ten, but was the second goalie behind Hasek - again, on a list that didn't include Dzurilla apparently.

Google translate of the article and the tables: http://translate.google.com/translat...rt_noc&act=url

Google translate of the poll members AND who they voted top-ten (in case you value some opinions higher than others): http://translate.googleusercontent.c...vV9It7BcO2pQQA

Of note:

How the coaches voted:
Vladimir Bouzek: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted (goalies): Hasek and B.Modry
Augustin Bubnik: Voted Holecek 7th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, J.Holecek
Vladimir Caldr: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Josef Cerny: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek, V.Nadrchal
Frantisek Dum: voted Holecek 10th, 3rd goalie. Voted: Hasek, B.Modry, Holecek
Richard Farda: voted Holecek 4th, 1st goalie. Voted: Holecek, Hasek
Karel Gut: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Ivan Hlinka: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Jaroslav Jagr: voted Holecek 6th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek, B.Modry
Vladimir Kostka: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek, B.Modry
Jiri Latal: voted Holecek 7th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Slavomir Lener: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Vladimir Martinec: voted Holecek 9th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Josef Palecek: voted Holecek 8th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Jaroslav Pitner: voted Holecek 8th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Rudolf Potsch: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek, Dzurilla
Milos Riha: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek, B.Modry
Antonin Stavjana: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek, B.Modry, J.Kralik
Ladislav Svozil: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Marek Sykora: voted Holecek 10th, 3rd goalie. Voted: Hasek, B.Modry, Holecek
Vaclav Sykora: voted Holecek 9th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Zdenek Uher: voted Holecek 6th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Frantisek Vanek: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Vladimir Vujtek: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek

I'll leave it up to interpretation...

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11-25-2012, 12:11 PM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I believe it says that Dzurilla was not included in the voting - is he not Czech? Is he considered a Slovak?
Dzurilla was Slovak. Actually voted best Slovakian player of century.

I have seen those individual results before. 5 players who played at the same time in front of Holecek in full results. 4.Martinec 5.Hlinka 7.Suchy 8.Jiri Holik 10.Nedomansky. On the other hand surprisingly weak rankings for defencemans. Pospisil as second best at 14.

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11-25-2012, 01:05 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanf View Post
Dzurilla was Slovak. Actually voted best Slovakian player of century.

I have seen those individual results before. 5 players who played at the same time in front of Holecek in full results. 4.Martinec 5.Hlinka 7.Suchy 8.Jiri Holik 10.Nedomansky. On the other hand surprisingly weak rankings for defencemans. Pospisil as second best at 14.
Yeah, for whatever reason, it was a very-forward heavy bunch past Hasek. Suchy at only #7 really stands out too.

They also put a big emphasis on "founders" of Czech hockey, with several players from the 1940s and 1950s ranking highly - like Vladimir Zabrodsky in 3rd.

A more recent ranking (from few years ago to coincide with the opening of a Czech museum) had Hasek, Jagr, Suchy, and Martinec as the standout four.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Thank you for the overview and historic perspective.

So the Zlata Hokejka award is not a strict domestic league award.

It is an all inclusive seasonal hockey award.
That's what it looks like in modern times, but it seems more likely than not that it was always that way. Not entirely surprising - the Soviet Player of the Year award was also all-inclusive.

The TIP magazine All Stars appear to be just for the Extraliga, though (or at least their name implies they are).

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11-25-2012, 01:47 PM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
On Holecek. (Apologies in advance for my use of simplified Latin letters without Czech markings/letters/etc.)

http://sport.idnes.cz/dominik-hasek-...2012_sport_noc

From the Dec. 1998. A poll of 50 experts on Czech hockey (and Bobby Clarke, apparently) that vote on the best players in Czech history. I believe it says that Dzurilla was not included in the voting - is he not Czech? Is he considered a Slovak?

Mind you, this is from Dec. 1998. Already Hasek was a near-unaminous winner. Holecek did not place in the top ten, but was the second goalie behind Hasek - again, on a list that didn't include Dzurilla apparently.

Google translate of the article and the tables: http://translate.google.com/translat...rt_noc&act=url

Google translate of the poll members AND who they voted top-ten (in case you value some opinions higher than others): http://translate.googleusercontent.c...vV9It7BcO2pQQA

Of note:

How the coaches voted:
Vladimir Bouzek: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted (goalies): Hasek and B.Modry
Augustin Bubnik: Voted Holecek 7th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, J.Holecek
Vladimir Caldr: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Josef Cerny: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek, V.Nadrchal
Frantisek Dum: voted Holecek 10th, 3rd goalie. Voted: Hasek, B.Modry, Holecek
Richard Farda: voted Holecek 4th, 1st goalie. Voted: Holecek, Hasek
Karel Gut: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Ivan Hlinka: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Jaroslav Jagr: voted Holecek 6th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek, B.Modry
Vladimir Kostka: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek, B.Modry
Jiri Latal: voted Holecek 7th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Slavomir Lener: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Vladimir Martinec: voted Holecek 9th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Josef Palecek: voted Holecek 8th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Jaroslav Pitner: voted Holecek 8th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Rudolf Potsch: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek, Dzurilla
Milos Riha: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek, B.Modry
Antonin Stavjana: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek, B.Modry, J.Kralik
Ladislav Svozil: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Marek Sykora: voted Holecek 10th, 3rd goalie. Voted: Hasek, B.Modry, Holecek
Vaclav Sykora: voted Holecek 9th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Zdenek Uher: voted Holecek 6th, 2nd goalie. Voted: Hasek, Holecek
Frantisek Vanek: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek
Vladimir Vujtek: did not vote Holecek top-10. Voted: Hasek

I'll leave it up to interpretation...
I'm confused. I went to those links and I didn't see a single vote for Modry in either one.

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11-25-2012, 01:49 PM
  #330
Mike Farkas
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Modry translates to "Blue" in English. If you looked at a translated page, you won't see Modry.

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11-25-2012, 01:49 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Modry translates to "Blue" in English.
Yes, I figured that out after looking at it again and realizing that "Bohumil Blue" probably wasn't a Czech name.

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11-25-2012, 02:05 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes, I figured that out after looking at it again and realizing that "Bohumil Blue" probably wasn't a Czech name.
That's the crayola shade that's good for colouring in Bohumils. I tend to draw those a lot.

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11-25-2012, 02:08 PM
  #333
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Kostka and Gut who were the CSSR coaches in 70´s didn´t vote Holecek. So could this mean that in their opinion Holecek wasn´t the difference maker? Both had 5 names from 70´s.

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11-25-2012, 02:22 PM
  #334
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If there was any tendency for voters to include only one goaltender on their 10-person ballot, Hasek's dominance could have really affected Holecek's vote totals.

On the other hand Holecek didn't really separate himself from Modry in the voting.

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11-25-2012, 02:33 PM
  #335
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A couple of articles from late in Turk Broda's career.

Broda was given a lot of credit for Toronto's third straight Cup victory in 1949:

Quote:
The Maple Leafs were kings of the hockey world on Monday and goalie Walter (Turk) Broda wore the biggest crown.
...
The victory gave Toronto three modern NHL records: Three straight Stanley Cup titles, a four-game sweep of the final playoff round two years in a row, and a grand total of six Cup triumphs.

At the end, the Leafs, and 14,544 happy home fans combined to cheer Broda, the sage in the game who took the wind out of Detroit's sails. The 34-year old Toronto goalie limited the regular season NHL champions to an average of less than 2 goals per contest in the four playoff games.
Maple Leafs Rule Hockey, The Telegraph-Herald, Apr 18, 1949

A preview of the 1949-50 season talks about how Broda is the oldest player in the NHL, but still key to the Leafs remaining on top:

Quote:
Toronto Maple Leafs head into the new National Hockey League season with virtually the same hustling, bashing squad that trampled all opponents in the Stanley Cup playoffs last spring.

(article then talks about how other clubs may have improved while the Leafs remained the same)

Smythe says there's no worry for the Leafs in the question mark some see in the squad. It lies in the aging eyes and limbs of goaltender Walter (Turk) Broda.

At 35, the Turk is the oldest player in the NHL. But in training camp, he looks as agile as ever.

(Article then talks about the defensemen and forwards on the team)
Leafs Rely on Broda - Old Man River!, Leader Post, Oct 4, 1949

Leafs slumped early in 1949-50 and Broda was ordered to lose 7 pounds and threatened to be sent to the minors:

Mayer, Miguay called up by slumping Leafs - Young Goalie To Replace Broda Who Is Told To Lose Some Weight, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Nov 30, 1949

By 1950-51, Broda (still the oldest player in the NHL) was splitting time with "star rookie" Al Rollins. Heading into the playoffs, Rollins appeared to have taken the #1 job, but an injury to Rollins opened the door to Broda playing the majority of the playoffs:

Rollins May Play in NHL Playoffs - Star Rookie Goalie Surprises in Recovery from Knee Injury, The Calgary Herald, Apr 6, 1951

Toronto ended up winning the 1951 Cup (their 4th in 5 years) with Broda playing the majority of the games. Broda was given a lot of credit by the home crowd for the win:

Quote:
The crowd shouted for veteran Turk Broda, the greatest playoff goalie of them all, who played two games against the Canadiens (in the finals), and all but one period of the six-game semifinal against the Boston Bruins because of an injury to Al Rollins. But Broda was too shy and fought off teammates who tried to drag him to the microphone
Toronto Wins Stanley Cup Fourth Time in Five Years - Primeau Completes Grand Slam, Richard Individual Playoff Star, The Calgary Herald, Apr 23, 1951

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11-25-2012, 02:39 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
If there was any tendency for voters to include only one goaltender on their 10-person ballot, Hasek's dominance could have really affected Holecek's vote totals.

On the other hand Holecek didn't really separate himself from Modry in the voting.
I don't know how much stock I'd put into that. This is the same list where Vladimir Zabrodsky (of the late 40s and early 50s just like Modry) edged out Vladimir Martinec (Holecek's contemporary) for third, and VLASTIMIL Bubník of the 1950s finished sixth, ahead of Jan Suchy.

So the voters of that list seemed to put the 1940s and 1950s Czech teams on the same level as the 1970s Czech teams. Which makes sense if you are looking at Czech hockey in a vaccuum, but is absurd if you are comparing the strength of Czech hockey to the rest of the world.

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11-25-2012, 02:51 PM
  #337
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Pros to Turk Broda:

Excellent longevity. In 1949, he was the oldest player in the NHL. He then played 2 more seasons, including being a key part to the 1951 Cup win.

Playoffs. He seems to have been thought of as the best playoff goalie of the time, and one of the real keys to Toronto's dynasty. I'm left with the impression that he might have been a bit more important to the 40s dynasty than Bower or Smith were to their dynasties.

Durability. From Broda's 2nd NHL season in 1937-38 at the age of 23, until 1949-50 at the age of 35, Broda only missed 3 total games that weren't related to the World War 2! And 2 of those were in 1949-50 when he was apparently being punished for being overweight.

Consistently good in the regular season. From 1940-41 to 1949-50, Broda finished top 3 in All Star voting every season, except for the 3 he missed all or most of due to World War 2.

Con to Turk Broda:

Regular season peak. The All Star voting and opinions given in newspaper articles agree that he was a little behind Frank Brimsek and Bill Durnan in the regular season when their careers overlapped. Broda was a First Team All Star twice when he led the league in GAA. Other than those two years, he was always behind Brimsek and Durnan in All Star voting (but always ahead of everyone else).

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11-25-2012, 03:11 PM
  #338
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I questioned how valuable Broda was considering his team's defense and coach, but as early as 1938 he seems to have been proving himself in the playoffs. Grant the second round against Chicago got ugly, but I really feel like I bought a little too much into the "system" arguments.

1938 Semi-Finals: 1 seed vs 1 seed - (BOS better regular season record)
G1: 1-0(2OT)
G2: 2-1, *Leafs claim Broda is robbed of second shutout
G3: 3-2(OT)

Game 2 Summary:Sands given credit for GTG in 3rd period; Davidson, Fowler, Horner all claim goal never crosses the line
Quote:
Art Ross: "We out played them all the way, but they beat us because Broda played a swell game and had lots of luck."
Tiny Thompson after the series:
Quote:
"It was a great series and Turk Broda played a big part. He really was sensational." We remarked that Eddie Shore was playing forward part of the time to which "Tiny" replied that the Bruins were all forwards during that series.

"Just leaving you back there all alone for them to break through and snipe at?" it was suggested. That was the style of play the Bruins had decided on, he said. Their object was to get the first goal and then tighten right up on the defence. But the Bruins were unable to get that first goal and so lost the series.
Shore's Thoughts:
Quote:
Questioned about the upset that saw Leafs eliminate Bruins for the league championship, the Boston defender gave all the credit to Turk Broda. "He played sensational goal, but he also had more than the usual run of luck," he said. "We outplayed them all the way, but scores still decide a game."


Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 11-25-2012 at 03:23 PM.
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11-26-2012, 05:00 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't know how much stock I'd put into that. This is the same list where Vladimir Zabrodsky (of the late 40s and early 50s just like Modry) edged out Vladimir Martinec (Holecek's contemporary) for third, and VLASTIMIL Bubník of the 1950s finished sixth, ahead of Jan Suchy.
And Maleček over Nedomanský.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So the voters of that list seemed to put the 1940s and 1950s Czech teams on the same level as the 1970s Czech teams. Which makes sense if you are looking at Czech hockey in a vaccuum, but is absurd if you are comparing the strength of Czech hockey to the rest of the world.
Pretty much this. 16 of the 39 players (=41%) on the list peaked between the mid-1940s and the mid-1960s.

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11-26-2012, 10:39 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Modry translates to "Blue" in English. If you looked at a translated page, you won't see Modry.
Somewhere, John Blue has just found his meal ticket back into pro hockey.

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11-26-2012, 10:54 AM
  #341
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I'd like to hear some more opinions on Bower before I vote. I definitely have some guys that I will for sure rank above him and some others that I will for sure rank below him, but I'm not sure where he falls in the middle group.

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11-26-2012, 12:56 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I'd like to hear some more opinions on Bower before I vote. I definitely have some guys that I will for sure rank above him and some others that I will for sure rank below him, but I'm not sure where he falls in the middle group.
For me, Bower's a tough one to rate because he spent the majority of his NHL career in tandem situations. Was a big part in winning 3 Cups in a row in 1962, 1963, and 1964, but then Billy Smith was a big part in the Islanders Cups. An resurgent Sawchuk played the majority of the games over Bower in 1967. I just don't see Bower as important to the 60s Leafs as Broda was to the 40s Leafs, and he was certainly not the regular season workhorse than Broda was.

I do have Bower above Billy Smith, largely because of the time Bower was stuck in the Original 6 AHL due to a numbers game, but I'm not sure how much higher he can be.

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11-26-2012, 01:20 PM
  #343
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Voted.

Main headdache was for mid-rankings -- comparing Worters to Holecek was not easy at all and I must admit it basically came down to... well, feelings.

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11-26-2012, 01:52 PM
  #344
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Bower's first NHL season was for the doormat Rangers in 1953-54. His GAA was 5th out of 6 teams in the league. He played every game, so there is no comparing him to a backup. Bower got spot duty a couple of times but wouldn't get a chance to play significant games in the NHL again until 1958-59 at the age of 34 in Toronto.

Here's a table showing Johnny Bower's record vs his teammates in every season he played at least 20 games in Toronto.

seasonplayerGPrecordGAA
1959Johnny Bower3915-17-72.72
1959Ed Chadwick3112-15-42.97
1960Johnny Bower6634-24-82.68
1960Ed Chadwick41-2-13.75
1961Johnny Bower5833-15-102.50
1961Cesare Maniago74-2-12.43
1961Gerry McNamara52-2-12.40
1962Johnny Bower5931-18-102.56
1962Don Simmons95-3-12.33
1962Gerry Cheevers21-1-03.00
1963Johnny Bower4220-15-72.60
1963Don Simmons2815-8-52.46
1964Johnny Bower5124-16-112.11
1964Don Simmons219-9-13.17
1965Terry Sawchuk3617-13-62.56
1965Johnny Bower3413-13-82.38
1966Johnny Bower3518-10-52.25
1966Terry Sawchuk2710-11-33.16
1966Bruce Gamble105-2-32.51
1966Gary Smith30-2-03.56
1966Al Smith21-0-01.94
1967Terry Sawchuk2815-5-42.81
1967Johnny Bower2712-9-32.64
1967Bruce Gamble235-10-43.39
1967Gary Smith20-2-03.65
1967Al Smith10-1-05.00
1968Bruce Gamble4119-13-32.32
1968Johnny Bower4314-18-72.25
1969Bruce Gamble6128-20-112.80
1969Johnny Bower205-4-32.85
1969Al Smith72-2-12.87

I'm not sure if this is helpful or not. In 1961, Bower won the Vezina and the 1st Team All Star (his only Postseason All Star nod).

In 1962, 1963, and 1964, he was the Leaf's starting goalie for 3 straight Cups.

In 1965, Sawchuk and Bower split the Vezina Trophy - the first time the NHL allowed goalies to split the Vezina.

In 1967, the Leafs won the 4th Cup of Bower's career, but Sawchuk was credited with the decision in 10 of their 12 playoff games.

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11-26-2012, 02:24 PM
  #345
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NHL Games Played

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
For me, Bower's a tough one to rate because he spent the majority of his NHL career in tandem situations. Was a big part in winning 3 Cups in a row in 1962, 1963, and 1964, but then Billy Smith was a big part in the Islanders Cups. An resurgent Sawchuk played the majority of the games over Bower in 1967. I just don't see Bower as important to the 60s Leafs as Broda was to the 40s Leafs, and he was certainly not the regular season workhorse than Broda was.

I do have Bower above Billy Smith, largely because of the time Bower was stuck in the Original 6 AHL due to a numbers game, but I'm not sure how much higher he can be.
Of the 12 goalies voted in to date 5 of the goalies played fewer NHL games - regular season and playoffs, than Johnny Bower, Also Bower played more NHL games than Thompson, Worters, Durnan.

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11-26-2012, 02:50 PM
  #346
Mike Farkas
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Right now, I'm just not a fan of:

Billy Smith - all playoffs, doesn't differentiate enough from lesser goalies on the same team, tandem goalie throughout...nothing that really jumps off the page. Had him low to start with, I see no reason to raise him higher.

Bernie Parent - 2 year peak is still just as dominant as it was two weeks ago...but he hasn't added anything to his resume that's noteworthy in that time either...I'm just not voting on a goalie that has such a limited, narrow scope of success this early.

Jiri Holecek - His own countrymen don't exactly give him a ringing endorsement...we're currently in the upper reaches of goaltending history...and we're going to vote on a guy whose claim to fame is largely doing well in Euro-centric tournaments but not to the extent that his own coaches thought very highly of him? This seems like quite a stretch here...if he had unaminous, even "homeristic" support from his peers, countrymen, other experts, I'd be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt...from what I've seen, I'd be extremely concerned if Holecek landed in the top-20 considering that it's at least debatable if he was even the second best Czechoslovakian goaltender in history...if we really aren't sure, why guess? I just get the uneasy feeling that we're creating a narrative to justify some awards and Holecek is going to compromise the integrity of the list severely...

Let's not even say 13th or 15th...if we were all sitting in a class and we got a piece of paper that said, "I'm positive Jiri Holecek is a top-20 goaltender of all-time because: _____________________________" and then a series of lines for you to write in your answer...someone here can really fill that in without making assumptions and guesswork...and most of all, without lying? Respectfully, I'd be very surprised, but open to the notion if it was structurally sound.

So that leaves me with this...

Ed Belfour
Johnny Bower
Turk Broda
Bill Durnan
Tony Esposito
Tiny Thompson
Roy Worters

Esposito is a lock for me this round I think, I think Broda is too, and I think I like Roy Worters to go highly...what's the knock on him, other than he played for some bad teams?

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11-26-2012, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Of the 12 goalies voted in to date 5 of the goalies played fewer NHL games - regular season and playoffs, than Johnny Bower, Also Bower played more NHL games than Thompson, Worters, Durnan.
The NHL went to a a 44 game season in 1926-27, a 48 game season in 1931-32, a 50 game season in 1942-43, a 60 game season in 1946-47 and a 70 game season in 1949-50. Before 1926-27, the season length slowly rose from 10 to 36 games.

The bigger concern with Bower is that he was only a 1st Team All Star once, and never a 2nd Team All Star. And while competition was strong in the early 60s, by the mid 60s, it was not.

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11-26-2012, 03:00 PM
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Jiri Holecek - His own countrymen don't exactly give him a ringing endorsement...we're currently in the upper reaches of goaltending history...and we're going to vote on a guy whose claim to fame is largely doing well in Euro-centric tournaments but not to the extent that his own coaches thought very highly of him? This seems like quite a stretch here...if he had unaminous, even "homeristic" support from his peers, countrymen, other experts, I'd be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt...from what I've seen, I'd be extremely concerned if Holecek landed in the top-20 considering that it's at least debatable if he was even the second best Czechoslovakian goaltender in history...if we really aren't sure, why guess? I just get the uneasy feeling that we're creating a narrative to justify some awards and Holecek is going to compromise the integrity of the list severely..
How is this even debatable?

Edit: I mean, if you want to completely dismiss non-NHL accomplishments, perhaps you would rank Tomas Vokoun over Holecek, but I think that would be inconsistent with ranking Tretiak over someone like Evgeni Nabokov.

Double Edit: Do you mean with Bohumil Modry, who won a couple of tournaments in the late 40s over Canadian amateurs before being sent to the uranium mines for allegedly talking about defecting? Again, if you want to view all Czech hockey in a vacuum, then maybe a case could be made. But if you do that, you really need to do the same to Russian hockey and consider ranking Konovalenko not that far behind Tretiak.


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11-26-2012, 04:22 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How is this even debatable?

Edit: I mean, if you want to completely dismiss non-NHL accomplishments, perhaps you would rank Tomas Vokoun over Holecek, but I think that would be inconsistent with ranking Tretiak over someone like Evgeni Nabokov.
Not even taking Vokoun into account...I'm just looking (and admittedly, putting a lot of weight on) the 50 Czech experts, coaches, players, etc. voting on the best of all-time (think how much it would mean to us if we had something like that for the NHL/PCHA/NHA etc. voted on in 1942 for instance...we wouldn't take that to heart? I mean, what about that article you posted from that magazine in 1925? There was some questions about the exact order, but the premise of it was largely accepted based on the nature of who deliberating over it, no?).

Just looking at the coaches, of the 17 that voted for multiple goalies, only about half the time was that second goalie Holecek...(I think 9 of 17). Including once, a guy that was ineligible (Dzurilla) was ranked above him for crying out loud...that doesn't cast a shadow of a doubt on Holecek? If there was ever a place for him to be recognized, it would be right then and there.

I don't want to be a propagandist or spreading misinformation or anything like that...I just have legitimate reservations taking a guy that was very well-received in the third best league in the world (though he didn't win a championship there, whatever that's worth) and, AIUI, didn't do so hot against the best competition in the world but did alright against the second best competition in the world (with some coaching adjustments)...and then wasn't given anything close to unaminous recognition when the time came to recognize such a player...but it wasn't era ignorance or bias because a great number of his teammates were highly regarded, in some small part, by the very coaches that had these players (Holecek included, mind you/us) and still just didn't give Holecek any sort of noteworthy endorsement...at least not as much as you'd expect when given the competition and where we're at on the list (top-15, top-20 best of all-time)...

Let's pretend that Holecek is 15th. Where do Vlad Dzurilla, Seth Martin, Bohumil Modry end up? They can't be too terribly far away right? Is what Holecek did and recognized for so far and away better than these players?

I'm just struggling to understand (and I can't stress this enough, that this isn't argumentative, it's honest, legitimate questioning) what makes Holecek so much more special than these names. I think it's an exponential difference when you drop down a level. We're dropping down to level three (that's assuming the WHA is 4th or worse at this time) and we've got a guy who was very, very good at that level but not just a complete and utter world beater like Vladislav Tretiak was...the reason why Tretiak made the list is because he was just lightyears ahead of the pack and is recognized for it during and after the fact...

Now we might say, "well, did Tretiak look so good because there was nobody else in the Soviet Union that could compete?" - and maybe there's some logic to that. I find the "fact meter" leaning towards "unlikely" given that they were the 2nd best hockey producer in the world and they couldn't produce two decent goalies? That seems kind of unlikely in its own right...I mean, maybe...but I think it's more likely that Tretiak just blew their doors off...

So then we might say, "well, the reason why Holecek didn't run away with everything is because he had competition like Dzurilla..." - so then we're prepared to rank Dzurilla on this top 40 list? I, for one, am not 100% on that. Or we're prepared to rank Bohumil Modry on this top 40 list? He didn't make my top-60, did he make anyone else's? Maybe.

Surely, Seth Martin is up to bat in the next round if Holecek goes, right? Are Martin's accomplishments that much worse considering how weak his team was? Holecek was protected by players that we think very highly of in a defensive system that was adapted and used my Scotty Bowman 25 years later...Seth Martin played against the same competition with a bunch of amateurs and was recongized quite aptly for his efforts and then in his mid-30's joined the St. Louis Blues and platooned his way to having the same stats as a top goalie of all-time in Glenn Hall...so he showed he could handle "competition A" in the World Championships with a bunch of un-notables AND then he showed he could play with "competition A+" at the NHL level despite his advanced age and lack of professional experience...while Holecek flopped against "competition A+"

I'm not sure I'm saying this for/against Holecek...I think I'm saying it in terms of what happens to his relatively-nearby peers? We still have a lot of A+ players I think, where we don't have to rely on World Championships and third-best-league voting results...

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11-26-2012, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Not even taking Vokoun into account...I'm just looking (and admittedly, putting a lot of weight on) the 50 Czech experts, coaches, players, etc. voting on the best of all-time (think how much it would mean to us if we had something like that for the NHL/PCHA/NHA etc. voted on in 1942 for instance...we wouldn't take that to heart? I mean, what about that article you posted from that magazine in 1925? There was some questions about the exact order, but the premise of it was largely accepted based on the nature of who deliberating over it, no?).
If the 1925 McLean's All-Time All-Star list had goalies on it from the 1890s, it would be similar to that one All-Time Czech list having players from the 1940s and 1950s. I would take into account that they were trying to represent all eras of hockey, without regards to how the sport had developed.

Quote:
Just looking at the coaches, of the 17 that voted for multiple goalies, only about half the time was that second goalie Holecek...(I think 9 of 17). Including once, a guy that was ineligible (Dzurilla) was ranked above him for crying out loud...that doesn't cast a shadow of a doubt on Holecek? If there was ever a place for him to be recognized, it would be right then and there.
I mean, it might be a reason to rank Holecek under Tretiak. But I don't think the fact that 1 of 17 coaches listed an ineligible player means all that much.

Quote:
I don't want to be a propagandist or spreading misinformation or anything like that...I just have legitimate reservations taking a guy that was very well-received in the third best league in the world (though he didn't win a championship there, whatever that's worth)
The best players in that third best league in the world regularly beat the best players in the second best league in the world, who sometimes beat the best players in the best league in the world. Let's not pretend that all the best players were in the NHL, okay?

Quote:
and, AIUI, didn't do so hot against the best competition in the world but did alright against the second best competition in the world (with some coaching adjustments)
Seriously? Holecek did "alright" against the Soviets in having a record close to 0.500 and being named either Best Goalie or All Star goalie 6 of 8 years? By your logic, Hasek did "alright" against NHL players from 1994-2001.

.
Quote:
..and then wasn't given anything close to unaminous recognition when the time came to recognize such a player
Not sure what this means.

Quote:
...but it wasn't era ignorance or bias because a great number of his teammates were highly regarded, in some small part, by the very coaches that had these players (Holecek included, mind you/us) and still just didn't give Holecek any sort of noteworthy endorsement...at least not as much as you'd expect when given the competition and where we're at on the list (top-15, top-20 best of all-time)...
The list was definitely heavy on forwards though.

Quote:
Let's pretend that Holecek is 15th. Where do Vlad Dzurilla, Seth Martin, Bohumil Modry end up? They can't be too terribly far away right? Is what Holecek did and recognized for so far and away better than these players?
His accolades were quite a bit more than Dzurilla's playing at the same time. It was a stronger era than when Seth Martin played much stronger than when Modry played. You really don't seem to be taking into account how quickly international hockey developed. Bohumil Modry's Czechs were basically on the level of teams of hastily thrown together Canadian amateurs. Holecek's Czechs were almost as good as the Red Machine.

Quote:
I'm just struggling to understand (and I can't stress this enough, that this isn't argumentative, it's honest, legitimate questioning) what makes Holecek so much more special than these names. I think it's an exponential difference when you drop down a level. We're dropping down to level three (that's assuming the WHA is 4th or worse at this time) and we've got a guy who was very, very good at that level but not just a complete and utter world beater like Vladislav Tretiak was...the reason why Tretiak made the list is because he was just lightyears ahead of the pack and is recognized for it during and after the fact...
The best players in the NHL are now approximately half European (maybe a little less depending on how you define the best players), and I don't think there is any indication that the European talent pool has increased proportionally since the 1970s - Russia and the former Czechoslovakia have probably gotten a little worse relative to Canada while Sweden and Finland have gotten better.

Regardless, the best Canadian players were barely better than the best Soviet players in this time frame.

Now add all the non-NHL European talent from the 1970s together? Don't you think that talent is comparable to the NHL, maybe not in terms of depth, but in terms of the best players who would play on the national teams? And Holecek was the best European goalie of the 70s.

Quote:
Now we might say, "well, did Tretiak look so good because there was nobody else in the Soviet Union that could compete?" - and maybe there's some logic to that. I find the "fact meter" leaning towards "unlikely" given that they were the 2nd best hockey producer in the world and they couldn't produce two decent goalies? That seems kind of unlikely in its own right...I mean, maybe...but I think it's more likely that Tretiak just blew their doors off...
Then why were goalies from other nations routinely beating out Tretiak for awards in International tournaments?

Then why did at least some European observers think Holecek and Dzurilla were the two best goalies in Europe over young Tretiak in the early 70s?

Quote:
So then we might say, "well, the reason why Holecek didn't run away with everything is because he had competition like Dzurilla..." - so then we're prepared to rank Dzurilla on this top 40 list? I, for one, am not 100% on that. Or we're prepared to rank Bohumil Modry on this top 40 list? He didn't make my top-60, did he make anyone else's? Maybe.
I think Dzurilla is borderline top 40 - rightfully quite a bit behind Holecek. Modry can join the list somewhere near other founders like Tom Paton.

Quote:
Surely, Seth Martin is up to bat in the next round if Holecek goes, right? Are Martin's accomplishments that much worse considering how weak his team was? Holecek was protected by players that we think very highly of in a defensive system that was adapted and used my Scotty Bowman 25 years later...Seth Martin played against the same competition with a bunch of amateurs and was recongized quite aptly for his efforts and then in his mid-30's joined the St. Louis Blues and platooned his way to having the same stats as a top goalie of all-time in Glenn Hall...so he showed he could handle "competition A" in the World Championships with a bunch of un-notables AND then he showed he could play with "competition A+" at the NHL level despite his advanced age and lack of professional experience...while Holecek flopped against "competition A+"
Seth Martin did not play against the same competition as Holecek. The quality of European hockey in the early 60s was not even close to the quality in the 1970s.

These forwards who were All-stars are the World Championships mulitple times when Martin played: Venjamin Alexandrov (URS), Konstantin Loktev (URS), Alexander Almetov (URS), Mirolsav Vlach (TCH)

These forwards were the All-Stars at the World Championships multiple times when Holecek played: Vladimir Vikulov (URS), Alexander Maltsev (URS), Boris Mikhailov (URS), Valeri Kharlamov (URS), Alexander Yakushev (URS), Vladimir Petrov (URS), Vladimir Martinec (TCH), Vaclav Nedomansky (TCH)

Martinec and Nedomansky were Holecek's teammates on the national team. The rest were shooting on him.

And for what it's worth, I think Seth Martin has a case to be borderline top 40, as well.


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