HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Notices

Lockout thread #2: mediation done - no progress

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-26-2012, 11:17 AM
  #776
CornKicker
Locked Out
 
CornKicker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,313
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
The Thanksgiving holiday in the states is much like our Christmas holiday. A lot of things get shut down for a little while. I believe some businesses are still closed today but either way they make it a huge celebration down there right from the Wednesday through the weekend.
i thought they needed a few extra days to recover from getting trampelled in a walmart on black friday?

CornKicker is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 11:18 AM
  #777
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 24,756
vCash: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedi View Post
Parity in the league is worth fighting for. Without it you can say goodbye to at least 6 franchises, nobody supports perennial losers in the US.
That's pretty much what needs to happen

joestevens29 is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 11:21 AM
  #778
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 24,756
vCash: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Huh? IMO we have seen lots of parity since the last lockout. A couple of teams have been very good every year, a couple of teams have been very bad most years, but most teams have been up and down.

5 different President's Trophy winners in 7 years (Detroit and Vancouver 2 each), 7 different Cup winners, 12 of 14 different finalists (Detroit and Pittsburgh 2 each). Only 2 teams made the playoffs every year since the last lockout (Detroit and San Jose), and only 1 team (LOL - Toronto) never made the playoffs since the last lockout.

The last 7 years have seen parity like never before - and IMO it is one of the biggest reasons for the explosion in league revenues.
It's not sustainable though

joestevens29 is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 11:38 AM
  #779
Hoogaar23
Registered User
 
Hoogaar23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedi View Post
Parity in the league is worth fighting for. Without it you can say goodbye to at least 6 franchises, nobody supports perennial losers in the US.
Nobody supports perennial losers anywhere. Our very own Oilers were playing to half empty buildings in the 90s (partly due to Pocklington, but a lot of it due to the hopelessness of it all - being a farm team for the rest of the league). The Canucks after missing the playoffs 4 straight seasons dropped to under 15,000 attendance. The Flames were down around 15,000 during their 7 year drought. Ottawa dipped the last few years. Hell, even Montreal wasn't selling out when they missed a few years in a row.

The only team that has proven to be able to sell out while putting out a crap product for an extended period of time is Toronto.

Hoogaar23 is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 11:39 AM
  #780
Hoogaar23
Registered User
 
Hoogaar23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
It's not sustainable though
What's not sustainable? The current framework and distribution of $? Perhaps - but to say it (parity) will never happen is kinda silly considering we have lived exactly that the last 7 years.

Hoogaar23 is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 11:40 AM
  #781
Blue And Orange
#KevinLoweMustGo
 
Blue And Orange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Europe
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,208
vCash: 500
Parity and competitive balance is what makes a league sustainable. How boring would it be to see the same old team finish on top and win championship (see European soccer).

I'd much rather see a team win a championship due to excellent team management and shrewd trades/drafting rather than having all the money in the world and buy the top players (cough Real Madrid).

People here seem to forget that before 2004, the Oilers were owned by EIG and they didn't have the luxury to hold onto star players. We even lose Todd Marchant and Mike Comrie of all people because of our cash-strapped ownership group. The aftermath of the lockout was a blessing for the Oilers.

Blue And Orange is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 11:41 AM
  #782
OilDrop37
Registered User
 
OilDrop37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up North
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,975
vCash: 50
Good article on TSN regarding Decertification for anyone interested.

OilDrop37 is online now  
Old
11-26-2012, 11:43 AM
  #783
Blue And Orange
#KevinLoweMustGo
 
Blue And Orange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Europe
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,208
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Nobody supports perennial losers anywhere. Our very own Oilers were playing to half empty buildings in the 90s (partly due to Pocklington, but a lot of it due to the hopelessness of it all - being a farm team for the rest of the league). The Canucks after missing the playoffs 4 straight seasons dropped to under 15,000 attendance. The Flames were down around 15,000 during their 7 year drought. Ottawa dipped the last few years. Hell, even Montreal wasn't selling out when they missed a few years in a row.

The only team that has proven to be able to sell out while putting out a crap product for an extended period of time is Toronto.
And don't forget the Canadian dollar was 60 cents US. Not many Canadians had the spending power back then to pay for NHL priced tickets. The Canadian economy was in the doldrums and the American economy was booming. It was a perfect storm that put Canadian teams in dissaray. Thankfully, the Oilers managed to stay in Canada.

IMO, bringing the salary cap can help protect the prospect of a possible devaluation of the Canadian dollar (if it happens). As much as I hate losing the 04-05 season, that lockout had a defined purpose to it, unlike this lockout.

Blue And Orange is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 12:34 PM
  #784
Hoogaar23
Registered User
 
Hoogaar23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OilDrop37 View Post
Good article on TSN regarding Decertification for anyone interested.
Are player contracts not directly tied to a CBA? My question I guess is, what happens to all the contracts should the PA decertify? Because the contracts are not actual dollar amounts - they are basically a stake in the % of the players' share of HRR. So if there is no more cap or CBA, what would they get paid?

Hoogaar23 is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 12:38 PM
  #785
Reimer
Tambo Troll Face
 
Reimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CornKicker View Post
i thought they needed a few extra days to recover from getting trampelled in a walmart on black friday?
No man that's not the Wal-Mart way. When someone gets tramppled to death they just put up some pylons around the body and keep the shoppers coming in and out. No reason is a good reason to stop business for that company.

Reimer is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 12:53 PM
  #786
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,183
vCash: 5496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Are player contracts not directly tied to a CBA? My question I guess is, what happens to all the contracts should the PA decertify? Because the contracts are not actual dollar amounts - they are basically a stake in the % of the players' share of HRR. So if there is no more cap or CBA, what would they get paid?
You may want to think that one over.

I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 12:58 PM
  #787
Reimer
Tambo Troll Face
 
Reimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
You may want to think that one over.
Can I get a facepalm please?

Reimer is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 01:21 PM
  #788
Billybaroo*
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 737
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
You may want to think that one over.
What does actually happen though. Are the contracts negotiated under the prior CBA's all void, & its then a free for all on every player out there?

Billybaroo* is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 01:38 PM
  #789
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,183
vCash: 5496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybaroo View Post
What does actually happen though. Are the contracts negotiated under the prior CBA's all void, & its then a free for all on every player out there?
Dont know really, but the nba filed or threatened to file an injunction that would void all contracts if the nbapa de-certified their union. It was unclear if the injunction would have been successful but there was speculation that it would have been.

I imaging that option is open to the nhl if they wanted to premptively cover their butts should the nhlpa de-certify. They would have to collectively agree (owners) if that was something they wanted to pursue or not.

I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 01:52 PM
  #790
Master Lok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
It's not sustainable though
Wrong. It's not parity that's not sustainable, its the current CBA.

If the Cap was fixed at $40 million, then parity would be very sustainable.

Master Lok is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 01:54 PM
  #791
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 24,756
vCash: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Wrong. It's not parity that's not sustainable, its the current CBA.

If the Cap was fixed at $40 million, then parity would be very sustainable.
Is that realistic? Most likely not.

joestevens29 is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 02:02 PM
  #792
nabob
Hall for captain
 
nabob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: HF boards
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,015
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Is that realistic? Most likely not.
probably not. But if revenue sharing was increased as the owners have proposed to do and the cap was lowered to a 50% share of HRR is sure would be.

Its funny how the PA preaches that they want to be treated as partners in the league and want say in this and that but they arent willing to do what is clearly best for the league and players this time around. During the last negotiations in '04 they did do that and both the league and players make record profits. Everyone won.

nabob is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 02:11 PM
  #793
Master Lok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Is that realistic? Most likely not.
Your argument is that parity is not sustainable. Only if you accept any of the Players Union CBA offers.

I don't.

Master Lok is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 02:17 PM
  #794
Hoogaar23
Registered User
 
Hoogaar23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
You may want to think that one over.
What precisely is it that I want to think over? Under the old CBA, a $5M deal would not necessarily pay you $5M - could be more or less depending on HRR and the total value of all contracts. Are you saying that the contracts would call for the actual $ amount on the contract to be paid in the absence of a CBA?

Hoogaar23 is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 02:29 PM
  #795
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,183
vCash: 5496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
What precisely is it that I want to think over? Under the old CBA, a $5M deal would not necessarily pay you $5M - could be more or less depending on HRR and the total value of all contracts. Are you saying that the contracts would call for the actual $ amount on the contract to be paid in the absence of a CBA?
The actual contracts ARE expressed in dollar amounts. They are subject to the cba, and that is where the HRR% and escrow and whatnot comes into play, but Horcoff's contract says he makes "x" number of dollars per year, not a % of "x" number.

Just my opinion.

I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 02:32 PM
  #796
Hoogaar23
Registered User
 
Hoogaar23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
The actual contracts ARE expressed in dollar amounts. They are subject to the cba, and that is where the HRR% and escrow and whatnot comes into play, but Horcoff's contract says he makes "x" number of dollars per year, not a % of "x" number.

Just my opinion.
Right - but a big part of the SPC is that it has to do with the CBA, right? I mean I don't know. Don't really know much about contract law, but somewhere in there it talks about the actual compensation being subject to HHR and all that jazz - so if you take that out, would the contract still be valid?

Hoogaar23 is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 02:39 PM
  #797
RipsADrive
Maybe next year?
 
RipsADrive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,602
vCash: 500
Both sides agree to allow U.S. federal mediators to become involved in the impasse according to Bob Mackenzie.

http://www.fmcs.gov/internet/itemDet...9&itemID=23887

Not that it has a chance in hell of happening but it's too bad they didn't take it to arbitration instead. Still, it can't hurt to get a 3rd party to try and push things along.


Last edited by RipsADrive: 11-26-2012 at 02:55 PM. Reason: grammar
RipsADrive is online now  
Old
11-26-2012, 02:49 PM
  #798
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,183
vCash: 5496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Right - but a big part of the SPC is that it has to do with the CBA, right? I mean I don't know. Don't really know much about contract law, but somewhere in there it talks about the actual compensation being subject to HHR and all that jazz - so if you take that out, would the contract still be valid?
Im not a lawyer so I have no idea. From what I have read, it seems the contracts would still be valid, but the cba would no longer be applicable, so escrow, HRR% and anything else associated with the cba would no longer be valid, but perhaps the individual player contracts would be, but that is speculation on my part.

I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 02:50 PM
  #799
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,079
vCash: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by RipsADrive View Post
Both sides agree to allow U.S. federal mediators to become involved in the impasse according to Bob Mackenzie.

http://www.fmcs.gov/internet/itemDet...9&itemID=23887

Not that it has a chance in hell of happening but it's too bad they take it to arbitration instead. Still, it can't hurt to get a 3rd party to try and push things along.
NHL really has to let some of the contract things go like the 5 year contract limit and UFA age. I think theses are the major sticking points right now not the HRR. NHL should let the 5 year thing slide on the condition that the NHLPA agrees to the restructuring of the conferences.

raab is offline  
Old
11-26-2012, 02:54 PM
  #800
RipsADrive
Maybe next year?
 
RipsADrive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
NHL really has to let some of the contract things go like the 5 year contract limit and UFA age. I think theses are the major sticking points right now not the HRR. NHL should let the 5 year thing slide on the condition that the NHLPA agrees to the restructuring of the conferences.
To be honest I really hate the new alignment proposal. I think it's stupid that the teams in the 7 team conferences have a better shot at the playoffs than those with 8 but that's a discussion for another thread.

It's been said a lot here before but I think the NHL could easily drop the 5 year demand since it's more the backdiving nature of the problem contracts rather than the term itself that is creating the issue. If the PA agreed to something like the 5% variation year to year I think that would more than address the situation.

RipsADrive is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:02 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.