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Old
11-26-2012, 01:43 PM
  #201
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
What are you talking about? They already accepted the 12% rollback, starting next year. What the owners won't accept is some semblance of a guarantee that there won't be a further clawback during the course of the next CBA.
They did? I guess I missed something. Link?

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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
It's greed because he wants a couple extra mill at the expense of future players. It isn't hypocrisy because while the puck-bettman shirts were puerile, no one but pro-owner fans took them with any sort of seriousness, whereas Hamrlik's dissension could be damaging to what the NHLPA is trying to accomplish.
How is one player's opinion damaging?
And Cole's shirt was only an example of a classless act that wasn't criticized. Who cares if you think it's funny or not serious. How does a classless act help the NHLPA exactly?? It's just as damaging to their image as Hammer's words.

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11-26-2012, 01:43 PM
  #202
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I think Bettman and the owners are willing to call the bluff of a decertification. I don't see how the majority of the players would be for one, it's likely just all talk.
I don't know enough about the case law precedent to really make a call on who would come out on top. It really could go both ways. However, it is a viable strategy, one that would have huge consequences for the owners, who due to the auspices of the CBA they can't bear to work under for another minute, are engaging in practices which in any other industry would be completely illegal. The worst thing the NHL can do, IMO, is not take the players seriously on this, and moving forward.

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11-26-2012, 01:49 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
They did? I guess I missed something. Link?
The last CBA proposal by the players was to go down to 50% immediately, down from 57%, which was your 12%. Where the owners said "no way jose," was on the provisions. After the first year, the total dollar amount could not be lower on a given year, than the previous year. The make whole provision continues to be a gap between the owners, who wish to give 211 million over 2 years, and the players, who are asking for 393 over 4.


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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How is one player's opinion damaging?
And Cole's shirt was only an example of a classless act that wasn't criticized. Who cares if you think it's funny or not serious. How does a classless act help the NHLPA exactly?? It's just as damaging to their image as Hammer's words.
How does one person crossing a picket line damage the union? Hamrlik's a turn-coat, and is being treated as such.

I never said the shirts and garbage vitriolic comments from the players were helping anything, but they're about as effectual as booing Bettman has ever been.

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Old
11-26-2012, 02:29 PM
  #204
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U.S. federal mediators now officially involved.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410329

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11-26-2012, 02:37 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Decertification isn't about pragmatism or peaceful agreements, it's about forcing the NHL into a corner so they have to make concessions. Of course, you wouldn't do such a move unless you were certain that it would work. If it doesn't work, then we're talking about a scenario where, indeed, the players would probably lose a lot of money. A scenario where the NHL would hold all the cards, as the lockout really could hold out indefinitely.

However, if the lockout were deemed illegal post decertification, that would be a huge blow to the NHL. Monumental. Multiple hundreds of millions of dollars in anti-trust and collusion law-suits which would make the difference in "make-whole" provisions seem like childs play. If there's a favorable chance that the NHL would lose a lawsuit post decertification, they would be wise to settle somewhere nearer to the NHLPA's last proposal.
Exactly. Decertification is more a threat than anything. Imagine 700 lawsuits filed against the league in 30 cities... there's no way the league could handle that. They'd be forced to concede or fold, and moderates would accept to give more to the players before folding.

The owners deserve this. They wanted play handball.

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11-26-2012, 02:40 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
U.S. federal mediators now officially involved.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410329
About time !

This conflict should had never happened, though. No real reaosns for that mess.


By the way. Is Bourque still cashing his paycheck from the Habs ?

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11-26-2012, 02:42 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
About time !

This conflict should had never happened, though. No real reaosns for that mess.
It doesn't mean much. Last Labor, they cancelled the whole season 3 days after meeting with mediators. Although, the league isn't there, yet.

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11-26-2012, 02:46 PM
  #208
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By the way. Is Bourque still cashing his paycheck from the Habs ?
I don't think anyone is getting paid beyond bonuses.

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Originally Posted by bcv View Post
It doesn't mean much. Last Labor, they cancelled the whole season 3 days after meeting with mediators. Although, the league isn't there, yet.
True. However, due to how far the players have come with their last proposal, IMO, they need an impartial 3rd party to sort out details, not come up with something fundamentally new.

NHL's not going to budge off 50%. Sorting out the make-whole, and "guarantee" the players want is something I'm at least hopeful can be done by a mediator.

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11-26-2012, 03:01 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
U.S. federal mediators now officially involved.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410329
Would love for some of you legal savvy folks to weigh in on whether this is a good or bad thing.

At the very least I have to assume it means that both parties agreed on something and are actually interested in ending this thing.

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Old
11-26-2012, 03:03 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
The last CBA proposal by the players was to go down to 50% immediately, down from 57%, which was your 12%. Where the owners said "no way jose," was on the provisions. After the first year, the total dollar amount could not be lower on a given year, than the previous year. The make whole provision continues to be a gap between the owners, who wish to give 211 million over 2 years, and the players, who are asking for 393 over 4.
It's still not truly a 50/50 proposal. The whole problem with the players last proposal was if revenues stay the same, they'd be getting 57%. The owners will never agree to that stipulation.

I think the owners can and should be able to come up to 393 or close on the "make whole".

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11-26-2012, 03:03 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Exactly. Decertification is more a threat than anything. Imagine 700 lawsuits filed against the league in 30 cities... there's no way the league could handle that. They'd be forced to concede or fold, and moderates would accept to give more to the players before folding.

The owners deserve this. They wanted play handball.
The owners have their own nuclear option: President Barack Obama.

This is an executive who hates unions and loves corporations. When hundreds of thousands fought in Wisconsin against the union-buster Governor Tom Walker (R-Koch Industries), he didn't life a finger. He never said "I stand with you"; this is because he doesn't support unions, he didn't want to stand with them, he wanted Walker to crush them. His former right-hand man, Rahm Emmanual, is busy crushing teachers' unions as the new Mayor of Chicago.

Lobbying Obama (and the rest of Washington) probably won't help with the current lockout, due to the slow pace of the policy process, but in the future we can expect heavy lobbying to Washington to modify whatever current laws may matter for pro sports. It will impact future lockouts. The decertification card won't be around for long: if billionaires like Jeremy Jacobs request that Washington nullify the threat of decertification, then it will nullified.

All the more reason for the decertification threat to be used -- it may be the NHLPA's last chance to use it.

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Old
11-26-2012, 03:04 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
I don't think anyone is getting paid beyond bonuses.



True. However, due to how far the players have come with their last proposal, IMO, they need an impartial 3rd party to sort out details, not come up with something fundamentally new.

NHL's not going to budge off 50%. Sorting out the make-whole, and "guarantee" the players want is something I'm at least hopeful can be done by a mediator.
I heard all players imjured (Bourque needed some surgery) before the lockout, have their salaries paid in full.

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Old
11-26-2012, 03:24 PM
  #213
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Would love for some of you legal savvy folks to weigh in on whether this is a good or bad thing.

At the very least I have to assume it means that both parties agreed on something and are actually interested in ending this thing.
I was a bit excited by it until John Shannon reported that this exact same thing happened for three sessions in 2004-05 before the season was cancelled.

So this could just be a goodwill precursor to cancellation. You know, both kids showing the teacher they weren't lying or cheating before the teacher separates their desks for the school year.

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Old
11-26-2012, 03:35 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The owners have their own nuclear option: President Barack Obama.

This is an executive who hates unions and loves corporations. When hundreds of thousands fought in Wisconsin against the union-buster Governor Tom Walker (R-Koch Industries), he didn't life a finger. He never said "I stand with you"; this is because he doesn't support unions, he didn't want to stand with them, he wanted Walker to crush them. His former right-hand man, Rahm Emmanual, is busy crushing teachers' unions as the new Mayor of Chicago.

Lobbying Obama (and the rest of Washington) probably won't help with the current lockout, due to the slow pace of the policy process, but in the future we can expect heavy lobbying to Washington to modify whatever current laws may matter for pro sports. It will impact future lockouts. The decertification card won't be around for long: if billionaires like Jeremy Jacobs request that Washington nullify the threat of decertification, then it will nullified.

All the more reason for the decertification threat to be used -- it may be the NHLPA's last chance to use it.
OMG give up your agenda. This isn't about corporations vs unions, none of this matters outside of hockey. It's about NHL owners vs NHL players, that's it. Obama doesn't care about the NHL, and he's not going to do anything about it.

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11-26-2012, 03:43 PM
  #215
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This isn't about corporations vs unions, none of this matters outside of hockey.
You should read the other article posted

Meet the Lockout Lawyers Destroying Sports
By Dave Zirin
http://www.edgeofsports.com/2012-10-16-784/index.html

It's clearly bigger than hockey. There are lots of points made in the article that I have not seen made anywhere else, that I did not know about and that you probably don't know about, that demonstrate that this goes beyond hockey.

It's all pro sports together at a minimum, and once you have such a big slice of society, it can't be contained.

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Old
11-26-2012, 03:53 PM
  #216
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But owners usually have other sources of income. Most players are probably not getting anything outside hockey and endorsements.
true, but you think a guy like Molson doesnt mind losing 20, 30 or 40 Mil in profits ?

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Old
11-26-2012, 03:54 PM
  #217
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It's a much bigger difference then that.

Players took a 24% pay cut last time, so it's 4.5 versus 4.5/(1-0.24) = 5.9 million. Add in another 12.3% cut this time and the 5.9 million becomes 3.9 million -- that's a massive difference.

Then think about all the other benefits owners want to take away:
- two extra years on the entry level contract (WTF ???)
- one extra year before free agency
- etc.
DAChampion, I am a little confused on these numbers you have here. That 4.5 million that was the result of the 24% rollback, right? So before you do the calculation on the additional 12.3% rollback, shouldn't you also account for the increase of that contract during the CBA term before doing the rollback? That massive difference is not so bad then, no?
Respectfully.

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11-26-2012, 03:55 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
On the sociological consequences of mass-lockouts in the professional sports world, one of the best articles I've seen on this issue:

Meet the Lockout Lawyers Destroying Sports
By Dave Zirin
http://www.edgeofsports.com/2012-10-16-784/index.html
That is the most biased article I can imagine.

If this was really about changing the management-labour paradigm, the worst way in the world would be to go after multimillionaire players who, by the writers own admission, are not hurting for cash, and can afford to defend themselves. You would go after ordinary guys who can barely afford to put dinner on the table.

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11-26-2012, 04:01 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The owners have their own nuclear option: President Barack Obama.

This is an executive who hates unions and loves corporations.
Obama could not interfere in internal matters of a state.

This is what corporations think of Obama:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle5406563/

Go to Ohio where he is loved because he saved thousands of union jobs.

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11-26-2012, 04:04 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Habbadasher View Post
That is the most biased article I can imagine.

If this was really about changing the management-labour paradigm, the worst way in the world would be to go after multimillionaire players who, by the writers own admission, are not hurting for cash, and can afford to defend themselves. You would go after ordinary guys who can barely afford to put dinner on the table.
They're already going after ordinary guys. It's not either or. The difference is that locking out Joe Blow doesn't make the news, and if it does people will feel more sympathy for him. That's not the agenda, the agenda is for locked out individuals to be villainized.

This is a lot more public. The four lockouts in three sports in 2 years have captured the public's imagination, and we can see most people's attitudes: "damn players make too much money". It's the same as when people say teachers make too much money. It's setting a precedent.

This is clearly an effective strategy. Just read most people's posts. Check out some of the other boards.

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Old
11-26-2012, 04:04 PM
  #221
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You should read the other article posted

Meet the Lockout Lawyers Destroying Sports
By Dave Zirin
http://www.edgeofsports.com/2012-10-16-784/index.html

It's clearly bigger than hockey. There are lots of points made in the article that I have not seen made anywhere else, that I did not know about and that you probably don't know about, that demonstrate that this goes beyond hockey.

It's all pro sports together at a minimum, and once you have such a big slice of society, it can't be contained.
Sorry but that reads like a conspiracy piece. All sports leagues are working together to ruin unions in America? The NHL is comparable to BP and other oil companies? Give me a break.

The NHL isn't ruining the environment, and it's practically irrelevant in America.

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11-26-2012, 04:06 PM
  #222
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The molson family is behind a massive condo project by the molson center its almost entirely sold out.The point is people's thirst for hockey in montreal is there and molsons thirst of making money is doing just fine

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11-26-2012, 04:07 PM
  #223
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. All sports leagues are working together
It's the same law firm (out of thousands of law firms) for all the different sports leagues.

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11-26-2012, 04:13 PM
  #224
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The molson family is behind a massive condo project by the molson center its almost entirely sold out.The point is people's thirst for hockey in montreal is there and molsons thirst of making money is doing just fine
He would rather be making the money off the Habs and the Condos rather than just the condos.

He is losing around 50 million dollars a year. Also, the possible loss of a top-5 draft pick could mean the loss of an integrated additional 50 million dollars down the road.

He would rather have a season, I'm very confident of that. However, he's one owner out of 30. Too bad.

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11-26-2012, 04:17 PM
  #225
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They're already going after ordinary guys. It's not either or. The difference is that locking out Joe Blow doesn't make the news, and if it does people will feel more sympathy for him. That's not the agenda, the agenda is for locked out individuals to be villainized.

This is a lot more public. The four lockouts in three sports in 2 years have captured the public's imagination, and we can see most people's attitudes: "damn players make too much money". It's the same as when people say teachers make too much money. It's setting a precedent.

This is clearly an effective strategy. Just read most people's posts. Check out some of the other boards.
Teachers and NHL players have nothing in common. One group goes to university for several years, and is responsible for teaching the youth of the country. The other group get paid while attending high school, and earn hundreds of thousands of dollars at age 18 playing a game for our entertainment where they spend maybe 20 hours a week at the arena.

People complaining that teachers make too much is a separate topic.

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