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Luongo thread continued...

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Old
11-26-2012, 02:24 PM
  #76
Ched Brosky
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Final version of the Sj deal I proposed earlier

To SJ:
Roberto Luongo
Clarke MacArthur

To TOR:
Antti Niemi
Mason Raymond

To VAN:
Ryan Clowe
Leafs 2nd in 13
SJ 2nd in 13

SJ upgrades in net to downgrade their pwf winger

Toronto gets their goalie and a smaller downgrade to their winger

Canucks get their pwf winger and 2 2nds in a very deep draft

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Old
11-26-2012, 02:25 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverback91 View Post
Lets add some crazy into this thread for kicks

To Philadelphia:
Roberto Luongo
Mike Komisarek
Clarke MacArthur
Carl Gunnarsson
Anton Rodin

To Toronto:
Illya Bryzgalov
Andrej Meszaros

To Vancouver:
Scott Hartnell or Jakub Voracek

Philly gets a stay at home d-man to replace Pronger, a much better goaltender, a 2nd/3rd line tweener a young 3rd pairing defender (because of all the injuries) and a decent prospect

Toronto gets a decent goalie and decent defender

Vancouver gets a playmaking winger or pwf

or

To SJ:
Roberto Luongo
Clarke MacArthur

To Tor:
Antti Niemi

To Van:
Ryan Clowe
SJ 2nd round pick

While I applaud you for thinking outside the box on the first trade in what world is Bryz a decent goalie?


The second one us fine has a chance to be rewarding for the leafs.

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Old
11-26-2012, 02:25 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think this is the best deal Vancouver could get for Luongo if things fall into place for them. [Lupul not committed to TO but would sign an extension in Vancouver]


Joffery Lupul
Joe Colbourne
Matthew Lombardi
1st Round Pick in 2014


Roberto Luongo
1st Round Pick in 2014

I've also been thinking that maybe if the lockout is all year than perhaps both Vancouver and Toronto can attract some key UFA's that would allow Vancouver to take a little less and Toronto to offer a little more [perhaps future package] if they could justify balancing out their rosters with UFA's.

Any deal -- ANY -- will be greatly affected by the upcoming CBA. IF the recent proposal is an indication, it could render Luongo untraceable, or he could have -ve value, if teams are faced to absorb the cap hit for the entire deal. Fact is no one knows and it will need a new CBA before anyone can speculate.

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11-26-2012, 02:30 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Any deal -- ANY -- will be greatly affected by the upcoming CBA. IF the recent proposal is an indication, it could render Luongo untraceable, or he could have -ve value, if teams are faced to absorb the cap hit for the entire deal. Fact is no one knows and it will need a new CBA before anyone can speculate.
How did the last deal hurt his value? If anything it is the Canucks who will be charged with his BDC, and get hit with a penalty. The players proposal was grandfathered in meaning Lui would not effect anyone, and the NHL's last proposal would only hurt the Canucks. So if we are speculating, which we all are, his value should be the same, or even higher.

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11-26-2012, 02:48 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
It's a fair trade but drop the 1st from both sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I like it.

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Old
11-26-2012, 02:50 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Any deal -- ANY -- will be greatly affected by the upcoming CBA. IF the recent proposal is an indication, it could render Luongo untraceable, or he could have -ve value, if teams are faced to absorb the cap hit for the entire deal. Fact is no one knows and it will need a new CBA before anyone can speculate.
Very true. If something significant changes than so does my position.

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Old
11-26-2012, 03:23 PM
  #82
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That is cool we are perfectly fine keeping Gards and JVR enjoy the Back up goalie in Lou.
Canucks arent my team so I dont have the pleasure of enjoying Luongo's goaltending... He is far from a backup however, and would most definitely be the starter on the Maple Leafs right now, dont kid yourself if you think otherwise. Just because his contract is pretty terrible, doesnt make him any worse of a goalie. He get's alot more flak than he deserves, and Im not a big fan of him myself but its hard to deny that he is a great goalie.

I dont think Luongo will be going to the Leafs though, I just dont see it personally.

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11-26-2012, 03:27 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
While I applaud you for thinking outside the box on the first trade in what world is Bryz a decent goalie?


The second one us fine has a chance to be rewarding for the leafs.
One so-so season from Bryz that was overmaginifed because of the HBO 24/7 series and he isn't even a decent goalie?

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Old
11-26-2012, 03:29 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Cheddabombs View Post
Canucks arent my team so I dont have the pleasure of enjoying Luongo's goaltending... He is far from a backup however, and would most definitely be the starter on the Maple Leafs right now, dont kid yourself if you think otherwise. Just because his contract is pretty terrible, doesnt make him any worse of a goalie. He get's alot more flak than he deserves, and Im not a big fan of him myself but its hard to deny that he is a great goalie.

I dont think Luongo will be going to the Leafs though, I just dont see it personally.
Of course not, it just means he isn't worth very much.

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11-26-2012, 03:50 PM
  #85
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Of course not, it just means he isn't worth very much.
I was more directing that towards the back-up comment. Obviously it decreases his value but he is still worth more than those proposals given. Especially considering the Canucks have no reason to rush to trade him, they can afford to wait until a great deal comes their way.

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11-26-2012, 04:25 PM
  #86
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Is Bryzgalov on the market?

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Old
11-26-2012, 04:58 PM
  #87
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Is Bryzgalov on the market?
I think I'd prefer it if he were, as that opens Philly up as a potential destination for one of our goalies.

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Old
11-26-2012, 05:19 PM
  #88
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One so-so season from Bryz that was overmaginifed because of the HBO 24/7 series and he isn't even a decent goalie?
Bryz is an odd guy he has always played in a defensive heavy system. I mean look at Mike Smith now in Phoenix. He is putting up amazing numbers but just a year before that he was a borderline NHL goalie. I am not sold that Bryz is a decent goalie and his current play in the KHL paired with his play last year on a new team that is less defensive just seems to point to Bryz not being as good as his numbers state. Not too mention Burke had his shot at Bryz last year why would he now trade for him? Better question if Bryz is so great why is Philly trading him to Toronto only to bring in Luongo. If Bryz is great would seem quite counter productive and a misuse of assets.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheddabombs View Post
Canucks arent my team so I dont have the pleasure of enjoying Luongo's goaltending... He is far from a backup however, and would most definitely be the starter on the Maple Leafs right now, dont kid yourself if you think otherwise. Just because his contract is pretty terrible, doesnt make him any worse of a goalie. He get's alot more flak than he deserves, and Im not a big fan of him myself but its hard to deny that he is a great goalie.

I dont think Luongo will be going to the Leafs though, I just dont see it personally.
The "back up" comment was more a reference to him be surpassed by Schneider. Would he make my leafs better? Yeah most likely? Does he make us a contender for the cup? No he just brings us back to the days of JFJ where we sold off our youth to try and push for the playoffs only to be taken out by the Juggernauts. Quite frankly I am tired of that cycle and will be more than happy to bottom feed for another 3 years if it means we finally build this team right. Don't kid yourself into thinking this team is a good goalie away from being a cup contender. We still have that gaping hole at C that needs to be filled.

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11-26-2012, 05:26 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
Bryz is an odd guy he has always played in a defensive heavy system. I mean look at Mike Smith now in Phoenix. He is putting up amazing numbers but just a year before that he was a borderline NHL goalie. I am not sold that Bryz is a decent goalie and his current play in the KHL paired with his play last year on a new team that is less defensive just seems to point to Bryz not being as good as his numbers state. Not too mention Burke had his shot at Bryz last year why would he now trade for him? Better question if Bryz is so great why is Philly trading him to Toronto only to bring in Luongo. If Bryz is great would seem quite counter productive and a misuse of assets.





The "back up" comment was more a reference to him be surpassed by Schneider. Would he make my leafs better? Yeah most likely? Does he make us a contender for the cup? No he just brings us back to the days of JFJ where we sold off our youth to try and push for the playoffs only to be taken out by the Juggernauts. Quite frankly I am tired of that cycle and will be more than happy to bottom feed for another 3 years if it means we finally build this team right. Don't kid yourself into thinking this team is a good goalie away from being a cup contender. We still have that gaping hole at C that needs to be filled.
There is no bigger hole on the Leafs right now than in net. That could not be more clear. The Center ice problem is a huge one too, but I've seen teams do OK with a few second line centers. It's happened with the Canucks, and obviously this past year with the Coyotes. Heck, you could argue Boston won the cup without a legit first line center.

You cannot escape bad goaltending and bad coaching. Nothing you do can overcome that.

The good news is at least there is a player available that can solve the goalie issue. Can't say the same thing about center.

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Old
11-26-2012, 05:39 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
The "back up" comment was more a reference to him be surpassed by Schneider. Would he make my leafs better? Yeah most likely? Does he make us a contender for the cup? No he just brings us back to the days of JFJ where we sold off our youth to try and push for the playoffs only to be taken out by the Juggernauts. Quite frankly I am tired of that cycle and will be more than happy to bottom feed for another 3 years if it means we finally build this team right. Don't kid yourself into thinking this team is a good goalie away from being a cup contender. We still have that gaping hole at C that needs to be filled.
If we're discussing Luongo going to the Leafs than the fact that Schnieder has surpassed him has little relevance. No where did I say the Leafs would be instant cup contenders with Lou in net but they would quite obviously be a much better team and definitely a playoff contender.

Having said all that, I am a firm believer that Allaire was the big problem behind the Leafs goaltending situation. Now that he is gone, I think the Leafs goaltending will improve without them needing to make a move to acquire another goalie.

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11-26-2012, 05:50 PM
  #91
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I think I'd prefer it if he were, as that opens Philly up as a potential destination for one of our goalies.
Bryz and Luongo have similar cap hits but Luongo's deal is longer, so I'd almostr consider going after Bzyz instead. Plus I love his demeanor. He's a laid back kind of guy that I think would do well in our market, while I think it could potentially kill Luongo.

So with that being said, what does Philly want for Bryz? Maybe we should turn our focus that way?

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11-26-2012, 05:54 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Leafsfan3 View Post
1: Toronto says no.
2. Vancouver says no
3. Vancouver says HELL no
If all Burke had to give was Kadri and Percy, he'd have Luongo in Toronto already.

I can't see how Burke would ever turn that down, even if it was Kadri and a non-protected 1st (there is no way Gillis agrees to a protected 1st anyways) that is highway robbery.

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11-26-2012, 06:02 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Bryz and Luongo have similar cap hits but Luongo's deal is longer, so I'd almostr consider going after Bzyz instead. Plus I love his demeanor. He's a laid back kind of guy that I think would do well in our market, while I think it could potentially kill Luongo.

So with that being said, what does Philly want for Bryz? Maybe we should turn our focus that way?
Make a "Value of: Bryzgalov to Toronto" thread and find out.

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11-26-2012, 06:32 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Bryz and Luongo have similar cap hits but Luongo's deal is longer, so I'd almostr consider going after Bzyz instead. Plus I love his demeanor. He's a laid back kind of guy that I think would do well in our market, while I think it could potentially kill Luongo.

So with that being said, what does Philly want for Bryz? Maybe we should turn our focus that way?



I'm all for TO going after Bryz or Thomas. Either one might be better than paying the ransom Gillis is apparently demanding.



Bryz also has history with Burke, so that's a bonus.



Basically, the test case is to see TO go after any other goalie and we get to see how they do. Either Burke's finally got it right, or he gets his walking papers and Nonis takes over.

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11-26-2012, 06:45 PM
  #95
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I have a feeling Burkes job will be safe. Just a hunch.

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11-26-2012, 06:55 PM
  #96
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If we're discussing Luongo going to the Leafs than the fact that Schnieder has surpassed him has little relevance. No where did I say the Leafs would be instant cup contenders with Lou in net but they would quite obviously be a much better team and definitely a playoff contender.

Having said all that, I am a firm believer that Allaire was the big problem behind the Leafs goaltending situation. Now that he is gone, I think the Leafs goaltending will improve without them needing to make a move to acquire another goalie.
Time will tell if it was Allaire I still think The Monster will surprise people in Detroit and I am hoping at least one of our goalie prospects pan out to be a capable starter. Also you have completely missed my point on the "back up." it was more or less a shot at the absurd asking price of Jake Gardiner, JVR, etc. Ask leaf fans hell just go back to the countless posts made in these Lou threads we are more than comfortable without Lou if the asking price is that. Is Mike Gillis and Co happy with having a man who is making 10 million sitting on the bench? Because I have this feeling the owners are not thrilled having that kind of cash going to a guy who is not helping them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
There is no bigger hole on the Leafs right now than in net. That could not be more clear. The Center ice problem is a huge one too, but I've seen teams do OK with a few second line centers. It's happened with the Canucks, and obviously this past year with the Coyotes. Heck, you could argue Boston won the cup without a legit first line center.

You cannot escape bad goaltending and bad coaching. Nothing you do can overcome that.

The good news is at least there is a player available that can solve the goalie issue. Can't say the same thing about center.
True we have a hole at goal but does Lou address this long term? As I have pointed out before will he be around when all of our young talent is ready to compete? I doubt he will which is why I am against giving up the hefty price of a guy like Gardiner or JVR for a goalie who is only a stop gap solution. I am tired of stop gap solutions for once I would like us to get a young goalie and let him develop.

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11-26-2012, 06:58 PM
  #97
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LiferLeafer, you asked this again in the last thread, so I thought I'd put together a small list for you. These goalies were dealt during the Cloutier's era in VAN. Based on this, I believe Burke has an A) Inability to _evaluate_ goaltending talent and B) Unwillingness to pay for it, should it be made available.



Here are the trades:




1) Phoenix traded rights to Nikolai Khabibulin and Stan Neckar to Tampa Bay for Paul Mara, Mike Johnson, Ruslan Zainullen and a pick in 2001.

- VAN could have made this trade as they had dealt D Adrian Aucoin and a pick to Tbay for Cloutier.




2) Chris Osgood - Waivers

- Self explanatory. He had 2 Stanley Cups to his name by this point.




3) Buffalo traded Dominik Hasek to Detroit for Slava Kozlov, a 2002 1st round pick and future considerations.

- An older goalie at this time, but still one of the elite talents in the league.




4) FA Dwayne Roloson.

- A goalie with longevity and ability. Easy acquisition here.



5) 16- San Jose traded Miikka Kiprussoff to Calgary for a 2nd round pick in 2005.

- He came out of nowhere I know, but it's a GMs job to keep tabs on the prospects of other teams. Maybe Burke could have even lucked into his "goalie of the future" actually becoming the goalie of the present.



6) March 8, 2006 : To Colorado Avalanche: Jose Theodore
To Montreal Canadiens : David Aebischer

- This one irks me. Theodore's talent is obvious. He was struggling in MTL at the time, and even two years prior. There was every reason to take a flyer on him 6-5-4 years ago.



7) Ottawa Senators traded Radek Bonk to the Los Angeles Kings for a 3rd round selection (Shawn Weller) in 2004 then the Kings traded Bonk to the Montreal Canadiens with Cristobal Huet for Mathieu Garon and a 3rd round selection (Paul Baier) in 2004.

- Again, an older player but still one that was trending upwards. Had 4 solid years in the league before injury did him in.







So there it is LL, your serve. And before you come back with comments like these not being established starters, neither was Cloutier before Burke gave him his chance. The real argument being that Burke couldn't identify strong candidates even when they were FA or on Waivers, let alone when they were given away.

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11-26-2012, 07:04 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Bryz and Luongo have similar cap hits but Luongo's deal is longer, so I'd almostr consider going after Bzyz instead. Plus I love his demeanor. He's a laid back kind of guy that I think would do well in our market, while I think it could potentially kill Luongo.

So with that being said, what does Philly want for Bryz? Maybe we should turn our focus that way?
Wow are you sure about this? Bryzgalov is 32 with a higher cap hit, NMC, and a career no where near to as consistent or productive as Luongo. This is a bad comparison, I mean Bryzgalov has been playing terrible, and if you think Luongo will be on the decline soon watch out for this guy.

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11-26-2012, 07:05 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I have a feeling Burkes job will be safe. Just a hunch.


I don't share your optimism.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
Time will tell if it was Allaire I still think The Monster will surprise people in Detroit and I am hoping at least one of our goalie prospects pan out to be a capable starter. Also you have completely missed my point on the "back up." it was more or less a shot at the absurd asking price of Jake Gardiner, JVR, etc. Ask leaf fans hell just go back to the countless posts made in these Lou threads we are more than comfortable without Lou if the asking price is that. Is Mike Gillis and Co happy with having a man who is making 10 million sitting on the bench? Because I have this feeling the owners are not thrilled having that kind of cash going to a guy who is not helping them.


Interesting, Mike Gillis is on the hot seat for developing an asset so well that it has rendered his star goalie tradeable. Salary or not. That's just not a great reason to be mad at one's GM don't you think?



Make no mistake, the spotlight is on Burke right now. Another failed season could see him unceremoniously removed from his post. That's something Gillis is an ocean away from. This two things are not alike I'm afraid.




Quote:
True we have a hole at goal but does Lou address this long term? As I have pointed out before will he be around when all of our young talent is ready to compete? I doubt he will which is why I am against giving up the hefty price of a guy like Gardiner or JVR for a goalie who is only a stop gap solution. I am tired of stop gap solutions for once I would like us to get a young goalie and let him develop.


Is 5-6 years long-term?



Everyone wants a young NHL starter level goalie. They just aren't there to be had, unless you think Bernier is one? If you do, perhaps he might be a better option for TO.


So Bernier, Thomas, and Bryzgalov. Plenty of options there.

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11-26-2012, 07:14 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
LiferLeafer, you asked this again in the last thread, so I thought I'd put together a small list for you. These goalies were dealt during the Cloutier's era in VAN. Based on this, I believe Burke has an A) Inability to _evaluate_ goaltending talent and B) Unwillingness to pay for it, should it be made available.



Here are the trades:




1) Phoenix traded rights to Nikolai Khabibulin and Stan Neckar to Tampa Bay for Paul Mara, Mike Johnson, Ruslan Zainullen and a pick in 2001.

- VAN could have made this trade as they had dealt D Adrian Aucoin and a pick to Tbay for Cloutier.




2) Chris Osgood - Waivers

- Self explanatory. He had 2 Stanley Cups to his name by this point.




3) Buffalo traded Dominik Hasek to Detroit for Slava Kozlov, a 2002 1st round pick and future considerations.

- An older goalie at this time, but still one of the elite talents in the league.




4) FA Dwayne Roloson.

- A goalie with longevity and ability. Easy acquisition here.



5) 16- San Jose traded Miikka Kiprussoff to Calgary for a 2nd round pick in 2005.

- He came out of nowhere I know, but it's a GMs job to keep tabs on the prospects of other teams. Maybe Burke could have even lucked into his "goalie of the future" actually becoming the goalie of the present.



6) March 8, 2006 : To Colorado Avalanche: Jose Theodore
To Montreal Canadiens : David Aebischer

- This one irks me. Theodore's talent is obvious. He was struggling in MTL at the time, and even two years prior. There was every reason to take a flyer on him 6-5-4 years ago.



7) Ottawa Senators traded Radek Bonk to the Los Angeles Kings for a 3rd round selection (Shawn Weller) in 2004 then the Kings traded Bonk to the Montreal Canadiens with Cristobal Huet for Mathieu Garon and a 3rd round selection (Paul Baier) in 2004.

- Again, an older player but still one that was trending upwards. Had 4 solid years in the league before injury did him in.







So there it is LL, your serve. And before you come back with comments like these not being established starters, neither was Cloutier before Burke gave him his chance. The real argument being that Burke couldn't identify strong candidates even when they were FA or on Waivers, let alone when they were given away.
I'll give you props on a couple, but i believe Hasek only wanted Detriot. And correct me if i"m wrong, but haven't most laughed at the idea of Burke bringing in less than elite goalies makes hin an idiot in TO but you are mad because he didn't jump on a goalie who was waived while in Van?.Bottom line is, Nucks fans will insult him if he doesn't sell the farm for Luongo and Leaf fans will applaud him if he doesn't.

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