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Luongo thread continued...

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11-26-2012, 07:19 PM
  #101
Bleach Clean
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Wow are you sure about this? Bryzgalov is 32 with a higher cap hit, NMC, and a career no where near to as consistent or productive as Luongo. This is a bad comparison, I mean Bryzgalov has been playing terrible, and if you think Luongo will be on the decline soon watch out for this guy.



No, no. You're doing this wrong Numbers. These options should only be encouraged. I've gotten to the point that I want to see TO land a different goalie and just watch the experiment unfold. Let's see what happens with Bryz, or Thomas, Bernier or even Reimer again between the pipes. The proof will be there for all to see.



It took this franchise 40 years to get a goaltender like Luongo. If anyone knows the benefits of taking the lesser road to ruin, it's us.

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11-26-2012, 07:24 PM
  #102
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I'll give you props on a couple, but i believe Hasek only wanted Detriot. And correct me if i"m wrong, but haven't most laughed at the idea of Burke bringing in less than elite goalies makes hin an idiot in TO but you are mad because he didn't jump on a goalie who was waived while in Van?.Bottom line is, Nucks fans will insult him if he doesn't sell the farm for Luongo and Leaf fans will applaud him if he doesn't.



No, I don't think you get to dismiss this as easily as that LL. This is the problem sometimes with this forum. You put the question out there, looking for others to do the research, and then dismiss the results out of hand. All it does is discourage the next person from verifying their information.



My opinion of Burke took a severe hit when he failed to bring in _any_ steady option. Be it to pay the heavy price of the elite, or the failure to evaluate talent in FA or even on waivers. Basically, he failed in every capacity. That's his legacy. And it's a legacy verified through research.

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11-26-2012, 07:25 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
No, no. You're doing this wrong Numbers. These options should only be encouraged. I've gotten to the point that I want to see TO land a different goalie and just watch the experiment unfold. Let's see what happens with Bryz, or Thomas, Bernier or even Reimer again between the pipes. The proof will be there for all to see.



It took this franchise 40 years to get a goaltender like Luongo. If anyone knows the benefits of taking the lesser road to ruin, it's us.
King Richard says hello. Kirk Maclean wasn't half bad either.

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11-26-2012, 07:28 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
King Richard says hello. Kirk Maclean wasn't half bad either.

KR can say hello all he wants, so can Maclean. None compare. If you did your homework on this LL you would know that.

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11-26-2012, 07:32 PM
  #105
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Wow are you sure about this? Bryzgalov is 32 with a higher cap hit, NMC, and a career no where near to as consistent or productive as Luongo. This is a bad comparison, I mean Bryzgalov has been playing terrible, and if you think Luongo will be on the decline soon watch out for this guy.
I merely am just curious. If I'm not mistaken Bryz only has 7 yrs remaining on his contract as supposed to 10 with Luongo. I have no problem paying a higher cap hit if it means the contract is that much shorter. Luongo's contract is the main sticking point for me.

Not to mention Bryz will be 39 when his contract expires, while Luongo will be 42.

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11-26-2012, 07:33 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
No, I don't think you get to dismiss this as easily as that LL. This is the problem sometimes with this forum. You put the question out there, looking for others to do the research, and then dismiss the results out of hand. All it does is discourage the next person from verifying their information.



My opinion of Burke took a severe hit when he failed to bring in _any_ steady option. Be it to pay the heavy price of the elite, or the failure to evaluate talent in FA or even on waivers. Basically, he failed in every capacity. That's his legacy. And it's a legacy verified through research.
Ok...didn't know i was dismissing anything. What shall i do? Thanks for the research i guess.Listen, i"d like Luongo here, but if the price stands at what Gillis has posted, than it doesn't matter how Burke values goaltenders because the price is to dam high. Why isn't Tallon an idiot, or Yzerman? These guys didn't pony up either. At some point you are going to have to admit that the price is to high. I'm not denying your right to feel the way you do about Burke, but don't try to convince anyone it's his stupborness or inability that had kept him from landing Luongo...it is the price. If any GM thought Luongo held that value...he would not be a Canuck anymore, clearly...they have all spoken by the fact he is still a Canuck.

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11-26-2012, 07:38 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
KR can say hello all he wants, so can Maclean. None compare. If you did your homework on this LL you would know that.
Why are you so mad at me, i've probably offered more than any Leaf fan, but the fact remains that you are trying to sell a 33 year old player on a 10 year deal for the price of a 27 year old on a 5 year deal. Sorry if i don't want to sell the farm.

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11-26-2012, 07:44 PM
  #108
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Ok...didn't know i was dismissing anything. What shall i do? Thanks for the research i guess.Listen, i"d like Luongo here, but if the price stands at what Gillis has posted, than it doesn't matter how Burke values goaltenders because the price is to dam high. Why isn't Tallon an idiot, or Yzerman? These guys didn't pony up either. At some point you are going to have to admit that the price is to high. I'm not denying your right to feel the way you do about Burke, but don't try to convince anyone it's his stupborness or inability that had kept him from landing Luongo...it is the price. If any GM thought Luongo held that value...he would not be a Canuck anymore, clearly...they have all spoken by the fact he is still a Canuck.



Let me get this straight, so the only time the price isn't too high is when Luongo gets dealt? Because at that point, the price is reasonable for _everyone_ correct? Brilliant logic there. So I'm sure Burke can at that point break out the "price was to high for _us_" rhetoric and all is forgiven right? Even when his need is the greatest among all teams. That's what you are saying correct?



Burke is too stubborn, and too out to lunch on goaltenders. He always has been, and is likely to continue to be. The record is there for all to see. In fact, he might still be the Canucks GM if he hadn't been so oblivious and so poor on evaluating goaltenders.



You say it's price, I say it's Burke's perception of that price. Who's right? I point to his long track record of abysmal goaltending acquisitions (and by way of that his omissions), and you have... ? So I'm going to put it to you know, prove to me Burke is a good evaluator of goaltending, and the subsequent price point they entail. Go ahead. Make a case.

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11-26-2012, 07:50 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Why are you so mad at me, i've probably offered more than any Leaf fan, but the fact remains that you are trying to sell a 33 year old player on a 10 year deal for the price of a 27 year old on a 5 year deal. Sorry if i don't want to sell the farm.


How do you differentiate the price of the two? If you want your logic to be unassailable, you have to do the following:


- List cases that show the depreciation of the same asset given a 6 year gap.


- Equate that case or cases to Luongo by illustrating the calibre of the asset in a comparison to Lu.


- Either the contract is excellent or poor in your evaluation. If it is poor, you are wrong. If it is excellent, then his term shouldn't matter in the same vein that term is exploited in cap-circumvention deals. Something the league is trying to shut the door on.


- Show comparable players at all. Who's value compares to Lu and why?



After doing that, then we have a basis for discussion. If you don't do it, then you are perpetuating the misinformation that many have already adopted. Yes, you have been the most amiable to deal with among the TO fans on this board (IMO), but it's all for naught if you continue to think the same way.

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11-26-2012, 07:50 PM
  #110
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Bleach you seem particularly on edge today. The asking price Gillis set was obviously too high at Gardiner, Frattin, Bozak and 2013 5th overall, so I don't see why you're taking issue. And it's well known Burke is interested in Luongo - probably moreso than any other GM - so he deserves some credit for looking at an elite guy for once to try and fix his woes. Can't really blame him for taking the summer to negotiate the price down when there's no rush to get a deal done. If there were games in the near future it might be a different story, but right now both GM's are rightly just stuck in their respective holding patterns.

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11-26-2012, 07:51 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Why are you so mad at me, i've probably offered more than any Leaf fan, but the fact remains that you are trying to sell a 33 year old player on a 10 year deal for the price of a 27 year old on a 5 year deal. Sorry if i don't want to sell the farm.
I think some of the offers you have made are spot on for value. I don't think Burke would give up much more than that unless he was actually in danger of losing his job.

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11-26-2012, 07:58 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Let me get this straight, so the only time the price isn't too high is when Luongo gets dealt? Because at that point, the price is reasonable for _everyone_ correct? Brilliant logic there. So I'm sure Burke can at that point break out the "price was to high for _us_" rhetoric and all is forgiven right? Even when his need is the greatest among all teams. That's what you are saying correct?



Burke is too stubborn, and too out to lunch on goaltenders. He always has been, and is likely to continue to be. The record is there for all to see. In fact, he might still be the Canucks GM if he hadn't been so oblivious and so poor on evaluating goaltenders.



You say it's price, I say it's Burke's perception of that price. Who's right? I point to his long track record of abysmal goaltending acquisitions (and by way of that his omissions), and you have... ? So I'm going to put it to you know, prove to me Burke is a good evaluator of goaltending, and the subsequent price point they entail. Go ahead. Make a case.
Fair enough bleach, your right and i'm wrong. The only reason Burke hasn't dealt Gardiner,our 1st and 2 other young pieces for a 33 year old goalie on a 10 year deal is because he is inept. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's just an overpayment. It has nothing to do with the fact that his team is not ready to make such a deal. I can't prove anything about Burke's goalie aquisitions here...he brought i Gigure...he got hurt. Again, if you thought Osgood or Roloson would have made your franchise...ok. Again, we need a goalie...you are correct. We can not pay Gillis' price for Luongo...guess we will see who does.

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11-26-2012, 07:59 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Ok...didn't know i was dismissing anything. What shall i do? Thanks for the research i guess.Listen, i"d like Luongo here, but if the price stands at what Gillis has posted, than it doesn't matter how Burke values goaltenders because the price is to dam high. Why isn't Tallon an idiot, or Yzerman? These guys didn't pony up either. At some point you are going to have to admit that the price is to high. I'm not denying your right to feel the way you do about Burke, but don't try to convince anyone it's his stupborness or inability that had kept him from landing Luongo...it is the price. If any GM thought Luongo held that value...he would not be a Canuck anymore, clearly...they have all spoken by the fact he is still a Canuck.
I think Yzerman made a bad decision here too.

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11-26-2012, 08:02 PM
  #114
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I like how bleach is considered 'on edge' because he is suggesting Toronto seek their goalie upgrade elsewhere.

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11-26-2012, 08:02 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
How do you differentiate the price of the two? If you want your logic to be unassailable, you have to do the following:


- List cases that show the depreciation of the same asset given a 6 year gap.


- Equate that case or cases to Luongo by illustrating the calibre of the asset in a comparison to Lu.


- Either the contract is excellent or poor in your evaluation. If it is poor, you are wrong. If it is excellent, then his term shouldn't matter in the same vein that term is exploited in cap-circumvention deals. Something the league is trying to shut the door on.


- Show comparable players at all. Who's value compares to Lu and why?



After doing that, then we have a basis for discussion. If you don't do it, then you are perpetuating the misinformation that many have already adopted. Yes, you have been the most amiable to deal with among the TO fans on this board (IMO), but it's all for naught if you continue to think the same way.
Bleach....it isn't black and white when it comes to value. It is what a team can afford to pay. The Leafs do not have the depth to pay what Gillis wants. When i say the price is to high, i mean specifically for TO.

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11-26-2012, 08:05 PM
  #116
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I think Yzerman made a bad decision here too.
To be honest...so do i. Luongo may be the one missing piece for that team. My point was, nobody is endlessly calling Tallon, Bowman,Yzerman or Tambo idiots for not paying up.

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11-26-2012, 08:09 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I merely am just curious. If I'm not mistaken Bryz only has 7 yrs remaining on his contract as supposed to 10 with Luongo. I have no problem paying a higher cap hit if it means the contract is that much shorter. Luongo's contract is the main sticking point for me.

Not to mention Bryz will be 39 when his contract expires, while Luongo will be 42.
That might be true, but first of all Luongo is a much better goalie. He also I bet will have more elite years left than Bryzgalov who looks he is on the decline already. Both are almost same age lol. Luongo will probably be a better goalie at 39-42, then Bryzgalov will be at 36-39. I think Bryzgalov takes the cake for worst contract in the league, with Gomez right behind.

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11-26-2012, 08:13 PM
  #118
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Bleach you seem particularly on edge today. The asking price Gillis set was obviously too high at Gardiner, Frattin, Bozak and 2013 5th overall, so I don't see why you're taking issue. And it's well known Burke is interested in Luongo - probably moreso than any other GM - so he deserves some credit for looking at an elite guy for once to try and fix his woes. Can't really blame him for taking the summer to negotiate the price down when there's no rush to get a deal done. If there were games in the near future it might be a different story, but right now both GM's are rightly just stuck in their respective holding patterns.



You're right, I am on edge a bit - I think that doing the research and posting that information, only to have it summarily dismissed didn't help things. But whatever.



The point is that the same myths seem to keep persisting, despite the mountain of information to the contrary. Even LL, who has been on board from the start, is thinking of Lu's contract as a negative. It's like that no matter what the rationale, that people will continue to believe what they wish. There is no progression to understanding...



As to Gillis's asking price, it was quite obvious it was at the high point. Gardiner and the 5th overall weren't going anywhere. But how people can go from that price to the refuse posted here is beyond me. Do you move off Gardiner and land on Kadri/Colborne and expect it to be in the same ballpark? Or from the 5th overall to _no_ 1st rounder at all, and that's "fair" too? Maybe Gillis should have asked for Kessel and Phaneauf so people would think Gardiner and a 1st is sufficient? Is that the game? Because that's really asking for the moon, and it wouldn't stop people from again completely ignoring it and posting their own Lombardi/Connolly concoctions.



The fact that Burke took the entire summer to "negotiate" only makes him look more suspect to me. The opportunity was there. The target was there. The need is there. So what stopped him from consummating the deal? IMO it's just Burke trying to get a dollar for a penny, that's all. And it is completely the wrong tact to take with a GM that is already not his biggest fan. IMO, Burke played this wrong and the lockout only compounds the issue. If he had finally got things right, Lu would be a leaf right now.

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11-26-2012, 08:16 PM
  #119
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I like how bleach is considered 'on edge' because he is suggesting Toronto seek their goalie upgrade elsewhere.
Nah, it's not the content of the posts, just the argumentative/oppositional tone. I usually agree with his positions, and have no problem with that suggestion. Anyways you can disregard, I probably shouldn't have said anything.

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11-26-2012, 08:32 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Fair enough bleach, your right and i'm wrong. The only reason Burke hasn't dealt Gardiner,our 1st and 2 other young pieces for a 33 year old goalie on a 10 year deal is because he is inept. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's just an overpayment. It has nothing to do with the fact that his team is not ready to make such a deal. I can't prove anything about Burke's goalie aquisitions here...he brought i Gigure...he got hurt. Again, if you thought Osgood or Roloson would have made your franchise...ok. Again, we need a goalie...you are correct. We can not pay Gillis' price for Luongo...guess we will see who does.


It's not an overpayment in the general sense. There are other teams out there with Gardiner level players that don't treat him like the bridge to the future. It's only an overpayment to TO, and even then, I'm not sure it is if you keep your core pieces intact. But moving off Gardiner and the 5th overall has to cost in other ways - you don't follow that up with Lombardi/Connolly and expect fans to react favourably. It's just not even in the same stratosphere.



I'm confident in saying that Osgood/Roloson would have been better options than Cloutier.

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11-26-2012, 08:33 PM
  #121
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Bleach....it isn't black and white when it comes to value. It is what a team can afford to pay. The Leafs do not have the depth to pay what Gillis wants. When i say the price is to high, i mean specifically for TO.
- a lottery pick
- a mid-late first round pick playing well about his draft position
- an established 2/3rd line player on a nice 1.5m contract
- and another solid young 2/3rd line player on an ELC

...is probably more than any goalie in the NHL would garner. Perhaps a guy like Jonathon Quick might get this value, but it is surely more than any team would give up for Luongo... not just Toronto.

But I get it... you're trying to mitigate the issue.

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11-26-2012, 08:36 PM
  #122
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Nah, it's not the content of the posts, just the argumentative/oppositional tone. I usually agree with his positions, and have no problem with that suggestion. Anyways you can disregard, I probably shouldn't have said anything.
I was thinking the exact same thing.

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11-26-2012, 08:38 PM
  #123
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- a lottery pick
- a mid-late first round pick playing well about his draft position
- an established 2/3rd line player on a nice 1.5m contract
- and another solid young 2/3rd line player on an ELC

...is probably more than any goalie in the NHL would garner. Perhaps a guy like Jonathon Quick might get this value, but it is surely more than any team would give up for Luongo... not just Toronto.

But I get it... you're trying to mitigate the issue.



This is known. You aren't adding anything new here. The price was high, IMO, due to the 5th overall being included with Gardiner. Dropping the 1st to mid round makes it fair IMO. However, because Gardiner is so vital to TO, VAN can't even expect that much coming back.



Oh, and when was the last time a star goalie was dealt, and what was his corresponding value? Maybe we can work off that?

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11-26-2012, 08:54 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You're right, I am on edge a bit - I think that doing the research and posting that information, only to have it summarily dismissed didn't help things. But whatever.



The point is that the same myths seem to keep persisting, despite the mountain of information to the contrary. Even LL, who has been on board from the start, is thinking of Lu's contract as a negative. It's like that no matter what the rationale, that people will continue to believe what they wish. There is no progression to understanding...



As to Gillis's asking price, it was quite obvious it was at the high point. Gardiner and the 5th overall weren't going anywhere. But how people can go from that price to the refuse posted here is beyond me. Do you move off Gardiner and land on Kadri/Colborne and expect it to be in the same ballpark? Or from the 5th overall to _no_ 1st rounder at all, and that's "fair" too? Maybe Gillis should have asked for Kessel and Phaneauf so people would think Gardiner and a 1st is sufficient? Is that the game? Because that's really asking for the moon, and it wouldn't stop people from again completely ignoring it and posting their own Lombardi/Connolly concoctions.



The fact that Burke took the entire summer to "negotiate" only makes him look more suspect to me. The opportunity was there. The target was there. The need is there. So what stopped him from consummating the deal? IMO it's just Burke trying to get a dollar for a penny, that's all. And it is completely the wrong tact to take with a GM that is already not his biggest fan. IMO, Burke played this wrong and the lockout only compounds the issue. If he had finally got things right, Lu would be a leaf right now.
Actually, i have said his contract is ideal for a team like TO. I have also said Luongo would be a good fit here. But how can you go from admitting the price was to high (Gillis' price) to saying if Burke had gotten it right Luongo would be in TO?The fact Burke toom the entire summer would be because of the CBA talks...no?

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11-26-2012, 08:57 PM
  #125
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This is known. You aren't adding anything new here. The price was high, IMO, due to the 5th overall being included with Gardiner. Dropping the 1st to mid round makes it fair IMO. However, because Gardiner is so vital to TO, VAN can't even expect that much coming back.



Oh, and when was the last time a star goalie was dealt, and what was his corresponding value? Maybe we can work off that?
Luongo
Krajicek
6th rounder -

for

Bertuzzi
Allen
Auld

In a deal many considered lopsided for Vancouver

Having said that Bertuzzi was the besf PF in the game, all be it probably in need of a change, Allen was a 4th over all pick just coming into his own, and Auld, who was the Canucks starter. Today, this would be like:

Lupul - Probably not as valuable
Gardiner - probably close in value maybe worth a bit more
Reimer - Probably spot on

for
Luongo
Tanev - Probably worth more than Krajicek
6th rounder

And that would be considered a bad trade for a 27 year old Luongo who is an RFA unsigned, with 1 year until FA.

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