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11-26-2012, 02:18 PM
  #26
Alawishis
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Ray was certainly a good QB, one of the best we've seen in green and gold. There were a lot of reasons he was not triving here lately and most of it has nothing to do with his talent or dedication. I have no doubt in my mind that without Ray TO does not even make it to the Grey Cup. We handed them the cup with that horrible trade. Having said that, like many here, I'm not completely against the idea of trading Ray. The only thing is if you do it, get something for him. Tillman made a trade for the trade's sake. Those are the worst kind of trades as there is no accountablitly to the team. We got robbed plain and simple. Now we have no viable QB options for some time.

Tillman screwed this team over for the sake of his own pride. To add insult to injury he traded away our #1 draft pick for a kicker we didn't really need. It smells like a conspiracy, but even if it wasn't there is no question Tillman was never in it for the team. When the GM refused to move to the city they should have canned him.

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11-26-2012, 02:38 PM
  #27
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Both Ray and Calvillo have warts on their careers to go with with their glorious triumphs. Ray clearly struggled during the regular season post-2005. Whether that was all on him or a combination of him, incompetent coaching, inadequate personnel... that's up for debate. Calvillo on the other hand has a .500 career record in post-season play after losing to the Argonauts this month.

Regardless, he and Ray are the only QB's who can boast three Grey Cup triumphs since 2000 and that's all that really counts.


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11-26-2012, 03:53 PM
  #28
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Did our own self professed entertainment/marketing guru Len Rhodes set up the half-time show? Looked like his work to me. Kicked off by a once great artist who is now an old man who looks sickly and ancient with a withered voice, followed by what can loosely be described as a one hit wonder female sandwiched in between a couple teen trans-gender acts. The only thing missing was a command performance by Vanilla Ice to finish up.

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11-26-2012, 04:02 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Alawishis View Post
Ray was certainly a good QB, one of the best we've seen in green and gold. There were a lot of reasons he was not triving here lately and most of it has nothing to do with his talent or dedication. I have no doubt in my mind that without Ray TO does not even make it to the Grey Cup. We handed them the cup with that horrible trade. Having said that, like many here, I'm not completely against the idea of trading Ray. The only thing is if you do it, get something for him. Tillman made a trade for the trade's sake. Those are the worst kind of trades as there is no accountablitly to the team. We got robbed plain and simple. Now we have no viable QB options for some time.



Tillman screwed this team over for the sake of his own pride. To add insult to injury he traded away our #1 draft pick for a kicker we didn't really need. It smells like a conspiracy, but even if it wasn't there is no question Tillman was never in it for the team. When the GM refused to move to the city they should have canned him.

Trading RR was not a bad option. He seemed to have lost his passion and desire to go all out and succeed here, probably brought on by incompetent managment and coaching, so tough to blame him. The way things were going here, we were never going to win a cup with him, so it's just as well he moved on. Problem is, they didn't get back anyone name Tate or Lulay, and had no one that was ready in the stable, so it was a terrible time to move Ray.

I think the thing that still irks me the most is Tillman trading away the 1st and 4th round picks for the Frodo kicker from Montreal, saying Shaw needed help, and then never playing him, other than one ill-fated FG attempt. What a year.

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11-26-2012, 09:00 PM
  #30
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Trading RR was not a bad option. He seemed to have lost his passion and desire to go all out and succeed here, probably brought on by incompetent managment and coaching, so tough to blame him. The way things were going here, we were never going to win a cup with him, so it's just as well he moved on. Problem is, they didn't get back anyone name Tate or Lulay, and had no one that was ready in the stable, so it was a terrible time to move Ray.

I think the thing that still irks me the most is Tillman trading away the 1st and 4th round picks for the Frodo kicker from Montreal, saying Shaw needed help, and then never playing him, other than one ill-fated FG attempt. What a year.
I agree. I find it hard to believe that there wasn't a market for a QB of RR's abilities. There should have been three or four teams wanting him. Its hard to believe all we could get were some washed up used parts.

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11-26-2012, 09:22 PM
  #31
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Did our own self professed entertainment/marketing guru Len Rhodes set up the half-time show? Looked like his work to me. Kicked off by a once great artist who is now an old man who looks sickly and ancient with a withered voice, followed by what can loosely be described as a one hit wonder female sandwiched in between a couple teen trans-gender acts. The only thing missing was a command performance by Vanilla Ice to finish up.
Gawd that was awful. I thought I was being punished yesterday. Between the game and the halftime entertainment it was half baked. Wasted time really.

I love lightfoot but it was sad just the same. A reminder to us all of our time coming.

Then you get these relative babies dancing around on stage.

Couldn't believe that first band. Lets see, androgynous, metrosexual, drag makeup, appeals to 12 yr old girls. I kept thinking who recommends this as entertainment to a GRey Cup inebriated football crowd. Not even the ditz cheerleaders were cheering. Can't even remember the name of the group, something Marianas Trench, as in they should stay there. Deep under the sea. Good name, thats it.
Next some poptart with face by mattel bouncing around like a 10yr old boytoy. The cheerleaders eating it up and singing along to something I've never heard before and don't care to again. The literal death of music. Just when I thought it couldn't get worse than Lady Gaga. This is what we'e offering the world stage. Oh ****, I apologize. To think we used to offer good music to the world.

Next the most recent boyband wonderthing for 10yr old girls to cry into their pillows at night. If theres a boy, anywhere, listening to this pablum crap and buying albums I'd recommend medical intervention fast. Maybe emergency testosterone injection, something. Gawd..

Again could there be anymore unlikely Grey Cup entertainment for an alcohol fueled adult crowd and on a national stage.

jebus this is the first one where I walked right out and started making some more snacks. I think I threw some Black Sabbath on just to get the clowing ****ing poptart syrup out of my ears.

Then the 2nd half came and more bad viewing. ****..


Last edited by s7ark: 11-26-2012 at 09:45 PM. Reason: minor clean up
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11-26-2012, 09:47 PM
  #32
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While I am not a big fan of any of the halftime acts, they weren't designed to appeal to me. I was going to be watching the game regardless of who was playing. Bieber and co. were chosen to try and get some young people to watch the game with their parents and perhaps hold on to a few of these kids as lifelong fans. That and to get some attention in the US market.

And it probably worked.

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11-26-2012, 09:57 PM
  #33
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I agree. I find it hard to believe that there wasn't a market for a QB of RR's abilities. There should have been three or four teams wanting him. Its hard to believe all we could get were some washed up used parts.
The thing is, there really wasn't a market. Toronto was the only team in dire need of a QB, and more than one team was wanting to deal one. It was a buyer's market last off season.

Wonder if Hamilton would have taken Ray, or if they had their heart set on Burris. Quinton Porter would certainly have been better return than Jyles, though they may have tried to force Glenn on us instead.

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11-26-2012, 10:06 PM
  #34
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They were smart enough to get him a solid O-line for protection and practice downfield blocking so Ray's quick 6yrd passes could turn into bigger gains.
There is no doubt that Toronto has been much more adept at creating an offense that is more complementary to Rays style.

Great trade for TO...they were smart enough to realize that for Ray to be successful he needs certain elements. It really underscores the rot at the core of the Eskimo organization that TO could figure this out in 1 season.

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11-26-2012, 10:39 PM
  #35
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There is no doubt that Toronto has been much more adept at creating an offense that is more complementary to Rays style.

Great trade for TO...they were smart enough to realize that for Ray to be successful he needs certain elements. It really underscores the rot at the core of the Eskimo organization that TO could figure this out in 1 season.
Not a doubt. I agree. Milanovich was masterful in this and along with Barker, they constructed an offensive monster. They made all the right moves, realized the gem in Ray, Kachert, more effectively utilized Owens and got the most out of what had been a more ordinary looking reciever pac.

The most impressive thing is there was no guesswork. Milanovich was assessing exactly what certain football players brought to the equation, how he would mold them to the schemes and offence, and no doubt he would do that. Why he knows football, gets the bucks, and I'm a blind man wandering at night in a jungle.

They'll be a more reasonable post from me coming within the next day or two and more detail on the masterful job the argos did.

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11-26-2012, 10:45 PM
  #36
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There is no doubt that Toronto has been much more adept at creating an offense that is more complementary to Rays style.

Great trade for TO...they were smart enough to realize that for Ray to be successful he needs certain elements. It really underscores the rot at the core of the Eskimo organization that TO could figure this out in 1 season.
We should be looking at Toronto's staff for our next head coach. I usually **** on ex-QB's running offenses, but Milanovich is an exception. Just great playcalling from him in the playoffs. You have to hope we'll give Jones a strong look.

But who am I kidding, Reed will probably be back on the sidelines. If he's not running the whole team.

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11-26-2012, 11:14 PM
  #37
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Not a doubt. I agree. Milanovich was masterful in this and along with Barker, they constructed an offensive monster. They made all the right moves, realized the gem in Ray, Kachert, more effectively utilized Owens and got the most out of what had been a more ordinary looking reciever pac.

The most impressive thing is there was no guesswork. Milanovich was assessing exactly what certain football players brought to the equation, how he would mold them to the schemes and offence, and no doubt he would do that. Why he knows football, gets the bucks, and I'm a blind man wandering at night in a jungle.

They'll be a more reasonable post from me coming within the next day or two and more detail on the masterful job the argos did.
Isn't it interesting how Milanovich managed to overcome his Head Coaching inexperience to lead a team to the Grey Cup.

What does that say about Reed (in his 2nd year) and his inability to manage a game properly, deal effectively with player decisions and basic game situations? Is this really a function of inexperience or is it more about inability?

I think the evidence points to the latter. Its great that Rhodes thinks Kavis is a good guy and a solid Edmontonian but are those elements of a good coach? Does this not give us a glimmer of insight into what criteria Rhodes uses to make Management personnel decisions?
Does any of that have anything to do with football and understanding what it takes to win?
Maybe it really shouldn't be a surprise that Rhodes was responsible for hiring Tillman in the first place.

This team is in serious trouble as long as Rhodes remains the man in charge of determining the direction of this team. The man clearly does not know the first thing about football. Who hired Rhodes...the board obviously. Who is the board accountable to and what act of god will be required to alter the course of their decision making?

IMO Tillman and Reed are just a continuation of the DM years.
The dark cloud is firmly entrenched over this team and I really have no idea what is required to change the climate.

These are dark days for this franchise.

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11-26-2012, 11:18 PM
  #38
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We should be looking at Toronto's staff for our next head coach. I usually **** on ex-QB's running offenses, but Milanovich is an exception. Just great playcalling from him in the playoffs. You have to hope we'll give Jones a strong look.

But who am I kidding, Reed will probably be back on the sidelines. If he's not running the whole team.
I am betting that your last line pretty much nailed the direction of this team.

I would be shocked if either Reed or Rhodes are gone by next season.

More of the same but yet different results will be expected.

Maybe that definition of insanity should replace the "Once an Eskimo Always an Eskimo" in the locker room.

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11-27-2012, 12:02 AM
  #39
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While I am not a big fan of any of the halftime acts, they weren't designed to appeal to me. I was going to be watching the game regardless of who was playing. Bieber and co. were chosen to try and get some young people to watch the game with their parents and perhaps hold on to a few of these kids as lifelong fans. That and to get some attention in the US market.

And it probably worked.

Doubtful at best. This is the same wrong headed marketing strategy the Oil Kings employ. Fill the stands with unruly kids while the parents take the night off and let the kids do whatever they want.

I went to games as a kid. I got into hockey by playing the game as a youngster, watching it on tv and going to games. The WHA Oiler games were NOT marketed towards kids. People go to the games to watch the game, not to catch t shirts between plays or win perogy prize packs.

As far as the football entertainment goes, it should have been aimed at the target audience, most likely 18-50yr old males. So some kind of rock band and/or hot chick singer. Ask yourself how many 18-50yr old males want to see Lightfoot, Carly Rae, or Beiber? How about zero?

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11-27-2012, 03:06 AM
  #40
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Doubtful at best. This is the same wrong headed marketing strategy the Oil Kings employ. Fill the stands with unruly kids while the parents take the night off and let the kids do whatever they want.

I went to games as a kid. I got into hockey by playing the game as a youngster, watching it on tv and going to games. The WHA Oiler games were NOT marketed towards kids. People go to the games to watch the game, not to catch t shirts between plays or win perogy prize packs.

As far as the football entertainment goes, it should have been aimed at the target audience, most likely 18-50yr old males. So some kind of rock band and/or hot chick singer. Ask yourself how many 18-50yr old males want to see Lightfoot, Carly Rae, or Beiber? How about zero?
It worked. The amount of facebook posts I saw about people watching the half-time show just to see Bieber and Carly Rae Jepson was pretty large. Probably didn't watch much else of the game though.

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11-27-2012, 03:12 AM
  #41
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Doubtful at best. This is the same wrong headed marketing strategy the Oil Kings employ. Fill the stands with unruly kids while the parents take the night off and let the kids do whatever they want.

I went to games as a kid. I got into hockey by playing the game as a youngster, watching it on tv and going to games. The WHA Oiler games were NOT marketed towards kids. People go to the games to watch the game, not to catch t shirts between plays or win perogy prize packs.

As far as the football entertainment goes, it should have been aimed at the target audience, most likely 18-50yr old males. So some kind of rock band and/or hot chick singer. Ask yourself how many 18-50yr old males want to see Lightfoot, Carly Rae, or Beiber? How about zero?
The people who were going to the Grey Cup game were going regardless of who the halftime entertainment was. Similarly, the people you mentioned (18 - 50 yr old males) are going to be watching the game regardless of who performs at halftime. If they don't like the halftime show, they will simply grab a beer and have some snacks like Replacement leaving the TV on anyways. Their enjoyment of the product doesn't really matter.

What matters to advertisers are appealing to as many demographics as possible (tweeners and young woman specifically) so they can expand their audience if only for a half hour...and it worked

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=410346

From the story:

The Sirius XM Grey Cup Half-Time Show delivered a 44 per cent increase in viewers compared to last year's halftime show, with an average audience of 6.1 million viewers tuning in for performances by Justin Bieber, Carly Rae Jepsen, Marianas Trench, and Gordon Lightfoot

Audiences also spiked across all demos during the Sirius XM Grey Cup Half-Time Show

The 6.1 million viewers was 600,000 above the average audience for the entire Grey Cup on TSN (5.5 million). They knew what they were doing. It worked out just fine.

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11-27-2012, 09:54 AM
  #42
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It worked. The amount of facebook posts I saw about people watching the half-time show just to see Bieber and Carly Rae Jepson was pretty large. Probably didn't watch much else of the game though.
I love when people think that their facebook feed is a fair sample size.

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11-27-2012, 10:00 AM
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Doubtful at best. This is the same wrong headed marketing strategy the Oil Kings employ. Fill the stands with unruly kids while the parents take the night off and let the kids do whatever they want.
The halftime act wasn't aimed at any age group or trying to get new fans. It was simply a penis measuing contest with the NFL and the competition of having a super duper halftime show. While the CFL was stupid and put on 4 different acts, likely to save money from having Beiber do the whole half-time. But no doubt the NFL will have a hard time beating that half time performance simply based on the fact that Beiber is the biggest act in the world right now.

Also I love when people assume that Beiber's/Jepsons crowd is 8-15 year olds. Did you see how much the cheerleaders were loving that ****? Beiber has a lot bigger of a crowd than just young kids. In fact the marketing the young guy is crazy due to the fact that the younger kids that do attend need their parents to attend with them which in turns at least gets them to listen and interested to some degree of his music.

At my office, when Beiber was coming to Edmonton, we had 5 grown adults(late 50's/60's) that were fighting over the companies tickets to Beiber. The ones that lost out on the companies tickets, guess what they did.

So I agree with you Liquor that he's likely wrong about the "marketing" strategy however it's no the same wrong-headed strategy that the Oil Kings use. He's the biggest act in the world right now and I don't care if it's for a PETA rally or World Poverty, there is absolutely no harm in having that act there, in terms of marketing. Unless you or anyone else can convince me or prove to me that current CFL fans are now not fans of the CFL due to Beiber performing.


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11-27-2012, 10:18 AM
  #44
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Plain and simple someone is pissed off no matter who plays the half-time show.

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11-27-2012, 10:27 AM
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Plain and simple someone is pissed off no matter who plays the half-time show.
Well what gets me is the music snob crowd, aka the radio station hosts. Garner was great example of this. He went into great lengths as to how all the other acts were a shame to Gordon Lightfoot and went into great details on how badly the last three acts were lip-syncing. If it was that bad why did you stick around and watch every single act to determine that? What drew you to watch the entire thing?

Clearly that is an example that their marketing and acts that they had worked. They didn't choose the acts to make one side happy over the other or to try and draw a new crowd. They simply choose it because he's the biggest act in the world and it's going to draw many many people. I guarantee that if you could see a viewership of the Grey Cup on TSN from start to finish it would be plotted as a huge parabola(with the peak being during the half-time show) likely with the left side(start of the game) being a bit higher than the right side.

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11-27-2012, 11:51 AM
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While I am not a big fan of any of the halftime acts, they weren't designed to appeal to me. I was going to be watching the game regardless of who was playing. Bieber and co. were chosen to try and get some young people to watch the game with their parents and perhaps hold on to a few of these kids as lifelong fans. That and to get some attention in the US market.

And it probably worked.

Highly unlikely. If anything, it may have turned some people off. As was pointed out by one poster, he had a gaggle of little girls crowd his telly when Bieber came on, and then disappeared immediately after. You want something to attract the demographics of people that can become football fans, not little girls after the latest and greatest child star. I think the league and Toronto also have an obligation to the current fans of the game, either attending or watching. The choices for entertainment were nothing but a complete snub to all of these.

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11-27-2012, 11:58 AM
  #47
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The traditional football audience will watch the game for the football, no matter what the half-time act is. I didn't like Nickelback last year, but it had no bearing on whether I watch or not. If Bieber can get a new audience looking at a Grey Cup game, if he can get additional news coverage from outlets that usually don't give a damn, it can only be a good thing.

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11-27-2012, 12:02 PM
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The people who were going to the Grey Cup game were going regardless of who the halftime entertainment was. Similarly, the people you mentioned (18 - 50 yr old males) are going to be watching the game regardless of who performs at halftime. If they don't like the halftime show, they will simply grab a beer and have some snacks like Replacement leaving the TV on anyways. Their enjoyment of the product doesn't really matter.

What matters to advertisers are appealing to as many demographics as possible (tweeners and young woman specifically) so they can expand their audience if only for a half hour...and it worked

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=410346

From the story:

The Sirius XM Grey Cup Half-Time Show delivered a 44 per cent increase in viewers compared to last year's halftime show, with an average audience of 6.1 million viewers tuning in for performances by Justin Bieber, Carly Rae Jepsen, Marianas Trench, and Gordon Lightfoot

Audiences also spiked across all demos during the Sirius XM Grey Cup Half-Time Show

The 6.1 million viewers was 600,000 above the average audience for the entire Grey Cup on TSN (5.5 million). They knew what they were doing. It worked out just fine.

The idea is to grow the game. As was mentioned, in all likelihood, viewership spiked during halftime and that was it. You have a 10 minute increase of 10 year old girls. The demographics that watched halftime are extremely unlikely to become lifelong fans of the CFL. They watched their heros, then left and did something else. No one that tuned in just to see JB is likely to follow the CFL because of it. It's the way our world works. Use the game to see what you want and then it's irrelevant until next years teeny-boppers put in their 5 minute schtick. In my mind, the type of person you want to attract as your new future fan base is the 15-30 year old male. They are the ones that will bring along some of the females along the way. They have been left behind by the attractions of the NFL and so many other types of entertainment, unlike those of us that grew up with the CFL. These are the people that will be putting their fannies in your seats and watching your games in the future, if you can hook them in. You can use your own imagination and thoughts as to what type of entertainment would be best to bring in this group.

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11-27-2012, 12:08 PM
  #49
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While I am not a big fan of any of the halftime acts, they weren't designed to appeal to me. I was going to be watching the game regardless of who was playing. Bieber and co. were chosen to try and get some young people to watch the game with their parents and perhaps hold on to a few of these kids as lifelong fans. That and to get some attention in the US market.

And it probably worked.
Well said. In 2010 Edmonton's Grey Cup Committee justifiably took lots of heat for booking ancient fossils Bachman & Turner to do the entire half-time show. B.T.O. was the band who first got me into rock music as a teenager and I'm a big Randy Bachman fan so I personally was delighted with the choice. In fact, the old guys played great- getting a very positive reaction in the stadium. Still, I was troubled somewhat that: 1. No buzz or increased TV numbers were created by the booking and 2. Good prairie guys B & T were being unfairly ridiculed by the Gregors and Spectors of this world. I watched all of this year's acts (including Lightfoot) with little interest but was still happy that Bieber et al generated a buzz for the CFL.

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11-27-2012, 12:11 PM
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Maybe they were targeting that 9 year girl that is ripping up a league with boys. She's going to be the next big thing and she'll convince the 8-11 year old boys to get into CFL.

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