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11-26-2012, 03:06 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haite View Post
When talking about potential draft picks, prospects are relevant.

Also, I just hate it when people type 6'1'' as 6.01, 6'2'' as 6.02 and so forth. It's like taking an already retarded system, and making it even more retarded by implementing random decimals.
I only do it because its quicker.

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11-26-2012, 03:10 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haite View Post
When talking about potential draft picks, prospects are relevant.

Also, I just hate it when people type 6'1'' as 6.01, 6'2'' as 6.02 and so forth. It's like taking an already retarded system, and making it even more retarded by implementing random decimals.
It's still not relevant when Larsson is borderline 6-foot, Bulmer is presumably a bottom 6 player, and Bussieres is only 6'1" (average for NHL players).

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11-26-2012, 04:02 PM
  #153
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I really like Shinkaruk in this draft. He's not the biggest guy either (listed at 5'11 175) but he plays with more jam than people give him credit for.

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11-26-2012, 04:23 PM
  #154
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Coming into the year I thought Shinkaruk was a bonafide top 7 draftee. Hes done nothing to prove otherwise.

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11-26-2012, 05:44 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
A. Way to list people not on the NHL roster. Only one there I'd take is Coyle.

B. Parise is 5.11. Koivu 6.02. Clutterbuck 5.11. Powe 5.11. You just listed 3 undersized guys. Strong is one thing, strong AND talented is another.
What does it matter? They are built tough. Do you want a guy that is 6'7" and plays like a pansy or a 5"11" guy that hits like a truck.

Why did we take Dumba when Ceci is there? Ceci is taller. Or Trouba.

They are not undersized. I mean if they are so undersized, should we get rid of anyone not over 6'0" on the team?

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11-26-2012, 05:55 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
What does it matter? They are built tough. Do you want a guy that is 6'7" and plays like a pansy or a 5"11" guy that hits like a truck.

Why did we take Dumba when Ceci is there? Ceci is taller. Or Trouba.

They are not undersized. I mean if they are so undersized, should we get rid of anyone not over 6'0" on the team?
They're below average sized for the NHL, the solution is to look to add some size in open spots on the team. But judging from your "solution" I suspect when you look at your wallet and there's only fives and tens you just throw all the money away because you wanted twenties.

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11-26-2012, 06:22 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
What does it matter? They are built tough. Do you want a guy that is 6'7" and plays like a pansy or a 5"11" guy that hits like a truck.
That reminds me of when I was reading a scouting report on Brian Boyle when he was still with the Kings. It said he was 6'7" but hits like he's a foot shorter than that.

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11-26-2012, 07:35 PM
  #158
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11-26-2012, 07:41 PM
  #159
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Anyone know the story behind Frederik Gauthier? He looks like an absolute mammoth. 6'5" 210lbs and won't turn 18 until April. He's a new entrant to FC's rankings (now 20th). Looks like this is his first CHL season and he was drafted in the 3rd round in the 2011 Q draft. Was he expected to go NCAA or something?

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11-26-2012, 07:47 PM
  #160
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Nevermind, found the answer to my own question in THW's profile on Gauthier.

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11-26-2012, 08:11 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
Domi out of those three. But did you pick the 3 smallest first round prospects on purpose?
No, and to continue our topic if the Wild are too small; You can always draft another gritty guy, say if Bulmer doesn't turn out, but then you have Bussieres so I think we are ok. Shinkaruk is good, but the smallest out of all the skilled forwards. Also I didn't see Klimchuk in the top 30, so shows how much I know. He could make a great 2nd pick if he is there. We need a sniper, which by the looks of it Zucker may be our man. But a really skilled guy who can play on the future top line would be awesome if we got a top 5 pick. I'm also expecting Seto to produce, otherwise I would swap Zucker for Seto. Give Zuck a chance at least if Devin cant score.

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11-26-2012, 11:13 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
They're below average sized for the NHL, the solution is to look to add some size in open spots on the team. But judging from your "solution" I suspect when you look at your wallet and there's only fives and tens you just throw all the money away because you wanted twenties.
Height should be the last thing the Wild put at the top of their list.

Size maybe is different if you got a twig of a player out there like Spurgeron or Kampfer or Bouchard but to me skill > height.

We don't need tall players. We need grittier defensemen and possibly forwards.

By the way you are looking at it, we would have never taken Granlund, Larsson, Zucker, or Dumba. They are all under size players. Why didn't we take Bjugstad instead of Granlund? He's taller and has skill.

I mean if size is so important, why did we not keep Sheppard or Gillies. They are all tall, sizable players. Because they sucked as players.

To me going into this draft, it should be Hockey IQ, Skating Ability, Grittiness, Shooting Ability (we need a shooter). If they are a tall prospect, awesome. We got some added height.

I mean come on; Tyler Seguin is 6'1", Crosby is 5'11"...

If we look at a kid like Domi (who may or may not be good) and go, nope. Don't want him, we need a kid with height. That's an idiotic way of grading a prospect. Could we get a prospect with height? Sure, it would be nice. But it's not necessary if they play smart.

By some miracle, we get the top pick, are we going to say no to MacKinnon, who is a slight 5'11" to grab Barkov who is 6'3"? Or hell Drouin...(would be nice).

You know we should have grabbed Nicklas Jensen or Tomas Jurco over Zach Phillips! I mean they are all taller prospects.

BTW Size =/= height. We do need to get some grittier guys (Cullen, Seto, Bouchard are marshmallows, that I can agree on) but we got guys like Larsson and Coyle coming in.

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11-26-2012, 11:27 PM
  #163
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@ 8band You are missing the point. We aren't saying that its bad to have short players. Its just bad to have the entire make-up of the team engulfed in them. We don't have any imposing players that play their height other than Kassian, and he isn't a very skilled player.

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11-27-2012, 12:03 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Domi is listed at 5'9" 172lbs. Factoring in the usual exaggerations, that means he's significantly smaller than Spurgeon.
Except Domi can still grow. Spurgeron not so much. BTW factoring in the usual exaggerations, does that mean Granlund is 5'9"? If Domi plays like his father, we should take him period. Regardless of how big he is.

Again;

Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz View Post
I've been whining about our lack of size in our forward corps for far too long to support us picking Domi in the first round.

Anyone know "real" heights for those three though?
WHAT DOES HEIGHT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? You said size and then moved into height. I attacked that point. As in, we shouldn't care about height at all. Zip. Nada. None.

I responded as such

Quote:
Size? We got Bussieres, Bulmer, Coyle, Larsson. Not to mention Parise, Koivu, Clutterbuck, and Powe. Why does height matter? If the guy is a spark plug, height means little.

We have enough strong guys.
Asking, why does height matter? Really, does it matter if the guy is a spark plug. If he can play tough. We have size in the fact we got guys that can hit and grind.

You responded:
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz View Post
That's why Montreal was such a force last year, because of all their undersized guys who were strong and had a real motor. That crappy LA Kings team went with size instead and look how poorly that worked out for them.
And in fact, I'm going to respond to that;

Los Angeles Kings (28+ games)
=< 6'1"
Dustin Brown
Drew Doughty
Justin Williams
Mike Richards
Trevor Lewis
Jarret Stoll
Alec Martinez
Slava Voynov
Colin Fraser
Rob Scuderi
Brad Richardson
Simon Gagne
Andrei Loktionov

> 6'1"
Anze Kopitar
Jeff Carter
Dustin Penner
Dwight King
Matt Greene
Willie Mitchell
Jordan Nolan
Kyle Clifford
Trent Hunter
Ethan Moreau
(23 players) 10/23 > 6'1"

Montreal Canadians (38+ games)

=< 6'1"
Michael Cammalleri
Brian Gionta
Scott Gomez
Aaron Palushaj
Louis Leblanc
Tomas Kaberle
Chris Campoli
Petteri Nokelainen
Andrei Kostitsyn
Raphael Diaz
Yannick Weber
Mathieu Darche
David Desharnais
Tomas Plekanec
PK Subban
Josh Gorges

> 6'1"
Rene Bourque
Mike Blunden
Travis Moen
Hall Gill
Alexei Emelin
Max Pacioretty
Lars Eller
Eric Cole

(24 players) 8/16 > 6'1"

So, Montreal had two players more of less than ideal height than Los Angeles. Some of Los Angeles better players (Doughty, Brown, Richards) are 'undersize'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz View Post
It's still not relevant when Larsson is borderline 6-foot, Bulmer is presumably a bottom 6 player, and Bussieres is only 6'1" (average for NHL players).
How is this not relevant? Size =/= height. What does height really have anything to do with it? Larsson and Bulmer are guys that can throw hits and can grind.

Quote:
Literally nothing that you have said about the topic has any value whatsoever. Few, if any, points have ever even begun to border upon relevant to what anyone has ever said.
You never answered my question; what does height have to do with anything? We had big guys like Boogaard and they had zero skill. We had small guys like Walz, who were amazing. Hell even Gaborik is 'average' height.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
@ 8band You are missing the point. We aren't saying that its bad to have short players. Its just bad to have the entire make-up of the team engulfed in them. We don't have any imposing players that play their height other than Kassian, and he isn't a very skilled player.
The only two I see of that is the midgets but they have zero size; Bouchard and Spurgeron.

Heatley (6'4") isn't a tough guy but he uses his size effectively. Isn't Koivu 6'2" and considered one of the better two way forwards? And isn't Parise known to be a spark plug?

I mean how effective would Clutterbuck be if he was 6'4"? He's a pest because of his size and because he's a pinball.

The fact that squidz brings up the ridiculous notion of height to discount Domi, if Domi (and he was a top 5 rated prospect at one time) is there without taking into account his abilities on the ice (which are suppose to be pretty good) or his skills is insane. If we did that for each of our prospects, we wouldn't pick the guys we did. Height is the last thing we really need. Do we really want to go back to Riser's picks and TT?

Remember how that worked out; we needed size so we grabbed Colton Gillies.

As for imposing players; Coyle fits in nicely (big guy). Bulmer does too, not as skilled but still. Bussieres does as well (was that not why we took him?).

The Kings had no one imposing (Brown is 5'11" and Kopitar is not really imposing)
The Bruins had Chara but he was a signing (And a rarity actually). They do have also Lucic, who I hope Coyle turns out to be slightly of. Marchand is 5'9"
Blackhawks has Burish and Eager (6'2", 6'1" respectively) but they were journeymen at best and not so skilled

I mean outside of the Bruins, I'm trying to get a sense from you VS what imposing is? I mean do we want a physical guy that has size but can score 20-30 goals a season? What is your impression of imposing?


Last edited by Jarick: 11-27-2012 at 09:28 AM. Reason: qdp
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11-27-2012, 09:29 AM
  #165
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I'll take a smaller skilled player over a bigger guy who lacks talent.

That said, I wouldn't mind drafting a big, hulking defenseman.

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11-27-2012, 11:02 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
Except Domi can still grow. Spurgeron not so much. BTW factoring in the usual exaggerations, does that mean Granlund is 5'9"? If Domi plays like his father, we should take him period. Regardless of how big he is.

Again;

[B]Very true. But we shouldn't just be drafting someone on who their father is. /B]

WHAT DOES HEIGHT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? You said size and then moved into height. I attacked that point. As in, we shouldn't care about height at all. Zip. Nada. None.

I responded as such

size 1 (sz)
n.
1. The physical dimensions, proportions, magnitude, or extent of an object.

That means height. Size is pretty relative to height.


Asking, why does height matter? Really, does it matter if the guy is a spark plug. If he can play tough. We have size in the fact we got guys that can hit and grind.

Exactly. We're not looking for size in guys that can hit, grind, and be on the ice 10 minutes a game. Skilled Big players. Thats the subject.

And in fact, I'm going to respond to that;

Los Angeles Kings (28+ games)
=< 6'1"
Dustin Brown
Drew Doughty
Justin Williams
Mike Richards
Trevor Lewis
Jarret Stoll
Alec Martinez
Slava Voynov
Colin Fraser
Rob Scuderi
Brad Richardson
Simon Gagne
Andrei Loktionov

> 6'1"
Anze Kopitar
Jeff Carter
Dustin Penner
Dwight King
Matt Greene
Willie Mitchell
Jordan Nolan
Kyle Clifford
Trent Hunter
Ethan Moreau
(23 players) 10/23 > 6'1"

Montreal Canadians (38+ games)

=< 6'1"
Michael Cammalleri
Brian Gionta
Scott Gomez
Aaron Palushaj
Louis Leblanc
Tomas Kaberle
Chris Campoli
Petteri Nokelainen
Andrei Kostitsyn
Raphael Diaz
Yannick Weber
Mathieu Darche
David Desharnais
Tomas Plekanec
PK Subban
Josh Gorges

> 6'1"
Rene Bourque
Mike Blunden
Travis Moen
Hall Gill
Alexei Emelin
Max Pacioretty
Lars Eller
Eric Cole

(24 players) 8/16 > 6'1"

So, Montreal had two players more of less than ideal height than Los Angeles. Some of Los Angeles better players (Doughty, Brown, Richards) are 'undersize'.

Yet, somehow LA has the better group of the bigger players.

How is this not relevant? Size =/= height. What does height really have anything to do with it? Larsson and Bulmer are guys that can throw hits and can grind.

Seriously. A midget can't be gigantic, just morbidly obese. Size is pretty well determined by height. We aren't even arguing about how they use the size right now, you're struggling on the basic definition. Size=Height+Bulk

You never answered my question; what does height have to do with anything? We had big guys like Boogaard and they had zero skill. We had small guys like Walz, who were amazing. Hell even Gaborik is 'average' height.

I answered the question for him. Skilled big guys.

The only two I see of that is the midgets but they have zero size; Bouchard and Spurgeron.

Heatley (6'4") isn't a tough guy but he uses his size effectively. Isn't Koivu 6'2" and considered one of the better two way forwards? And isn't Parise known to be a spark plug?

I mean how effective would Clutterbuck be if he was 6'4"? He's a pest because of his size and because he's a pinball.

The fact that squidz brings up the ridiculous notion of height to discount Domi, if Domi (and he was a top 5 rated prospect at one time) is there without taking into account his abilities on the ice (which are suppose to be pretty good) or his skills is insane. If we did that for each of our prospects, we wouldn't pick the guys we did. Height is the last thing we really need. Do we really want to go back to Riser's picks and TT?

Remember how that worked out; we needed size so we grabbed Colton Gillies.

And some of the is because we thought he would become his Uncle. Yea, didn't turn out like that.

As for imposing players; Coyle fits in nicely (big guy). Bulmer does too, not as skilled but still. Bussieres does as well (was that not why we took him?).

I mean outside of the Bruins, I'm trying to get a sense from you VS what imposing is? I mean do we want a physical guy that has size but can score 20-30 goals a season? What is your impression of imposing?

Physical guy that can score 20-30 goals. Like you said. A Milan Lucic. I'd take a big guy that can score 15-20 goals. Its not like we are overflowing with even 15 goal scorers. A Perry. A Backes, Hanzal, Clowe. Obviously not people that grow on trees, but there are the prime examples. Not the secondaries that we would still accept.
Bolded.

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11-27-2012, 11:09 AM
  #167
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I'll take a smaller skilled player over a bigger guy who lacks talent.

That said, I wouldn't mind drafting a big, hulking defenseman.
But we're talking big with skill. Not skill-less.

Nikita Zadorov. 6'5" 225 lbs. Scouting services that I've seen have him around 20. That'd be nice. Or even Ryan Pulock a little earlier. Hes 6'2" and 211. Plenty of skill and over a 100 mph shot.

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11-27-2012, 11:32 AM
  #168
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I was talking in generalities.

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11-27-2012, 11:45 AM
  #169
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size is an important factor when considering a prospect, 5'10 is "small" but if the player is built strong in terms of his frame it lessens it, guys like Crosby and Giroux and Parise are 5'11 but are built strong and thus can take the grind.

Size is also a big reason why guys like Kyle Rau, Rocco Grimaldi, and upcoming Taylor Cammarata are not top 15 or top 10 picks, sure a guy is explosive but his 5'6'' frame isn't going to allow him to do much vs a 6'0+ dman, that 6'' in height, allows a guy to have a stronger body, and wider reach and that is huge.

Wild don't need a bunch of 6'3'' players who are mean as **** but getting a few more guys who will play the hard dirty game is needed.

LA Kings didn't win because their guys were some magical height, they won because they brought a healthy mix of skill with grit, teams couldn't match up and couldn't withstand the grind, when you couple that with how amazing Quick played you get a winning team.

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11-27-2012, 12:27 PM
  #170
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Prospects we have who are "small" yet skilled:
Zucker, Granlund, Haula

Prospects we have who are "big" and tough:
Bulmer, Bussieres, Palmieri

Prospects we have who are "big" and skilled:
Coyle, Brodin, Scandella, Lucia

Prospects we have who are "average" and skilled:
Dumba, Larsson, Phillips

I'd say we have a pretty decent cross-section of small, average, and big players as well as big guys who are tough and big guys who are skilled.

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11-27-2012, 01:17 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Prospects we have who are "small" yet skilled:
Zucker, Granlund, Haula

Prospects we have who are "big" and tough:
Bulmer, Bussieres, Palmieri

Prospects we have who are "big" and skilled:
Coyle, Brodin, Scandella, Lucia

Prospects we have who are "average" and skilled:
Dumba, Larsson, Phillips

I'd say we have a pretty decent cross-section of small, average, and big players as well as big guys who are tough and big guys who are skilled.
I would put Brodin in the average, not the big section. But thats just being picky.

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11-27-2012, 01:31 PM
  #172
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We're mostly talking height rather than frame. I think the whole thing is fairly irrelevant for a top six player OUTSIDE of Coyle, who looks like a prototypical power forward, which is actually pretty rare.

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11-27-2012, 01:51 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
But we're talking big with skill. Not skill-less.

Nikita Zadorov. 6'5" 225 lbs. Scouting services that I've seen have him around 20. That'd be nice. Or even Ryan Pulock a little earlier. Hes 6'2" and 211. Plenty of skill and over a 100 mph shot.
Zadorov would be nice but are we going to be taking a Russian? Pulock as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
Bolded.
Thank you. The problem is big, skilled guys usually go in the top of the draft unless they are projects or you get lucky (Boston; Lucic). Minnesota might get lucky with a guy like Bussierres or Bulmer if they catch on.

While size is determined by height, it's not everything.

I also mentioned that smaller players can have a solid frame. They don't have to get pushed around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I'll take a smaller skilled player over a bigger guy who lacks talent.

That said, I wouldn't mind drafting a big, hulking defenseman.
Would love a Tyler Myers personally.

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11-27-2012, 01:53 PM
  #174
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Would love a Tyler Myers personally.
Everyone would. Even Buffalo wouldn't mind having another one.

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11-27-2012, 02:29 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
Zadorov would be nice but are we going to be taking a Russian? Pulock as well.
It might help that he plays in the OHL, but I don't know if we'd draft a Russian. If we're back at 20 and no one top rated slips we could take a chance.

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