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Old
11-27-2012, 10:59 AM
  #126
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So first you're complaining that he doesn't score enough, now you're saying that scoring doesn't matter as much? Grabo is one of our most consistent players, points wise(He's averaged around the same PPG his whole career here) and effort wise. Are you ok?

I also thought you said shots were useless? Because that's what you were crying about when people used the corsi stat, that it was only a projection of shots. So now they're ok?
Consistent year to year, sure. Week to week, or month to month? Not so much. Grabo's cold streaks tended to coincide with those periods where he wasn't taking many shots on net, and was also indicative of his overall offensive game for those stretches.

There isn't a set % shot that can be equated to a scoring chance. Players range from 5-20'ish shooting percentage, after all. Taking 6 shots on net doesn't necessarily mean they were good shots, but taking 0 or 1 shot on net from a shoot first player pretty much means he wasn't much of an offensive threat for that game. When a sniper does that as frequently as Grabo did last season, it's pretty hard to consider him as a consistent player.

Do you remember how much bashing Kessel got during last offseason for being streaky? He had 5+ shots per game for half of the games during his stretch, and was quite often noticeably the most dangerous guy on the ice. The guy tried hard (with worse linemates), was constantly buzzing around the net, and he still got crapped on. When the opposite happens with Grabo, and he becomes invisible during his "cold streaks", the #84 fans all join the picket line in protest.

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LOL, I know, it's just irritating reading that crap.
My thoughts exactly.

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11-27-2012, 12:10 PM
  #127
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Mac and Kule had career years with Grabo as there center, I can play that game too. Kessel became a PPG player with the arrival of Lupul, Bozak had little to with it. I give him credit for being able to look competent in a role that he has no business being in, but if you actually believe that he was the reason for their(Kessel & Lupul) success then there really is no point in arguing with you.
Well considering Mac scored exactly 5 more goals then he did in the season prior, I wouldn't brag or certainly give too much credit to a mediocre playmaker like Grabo is. Infact you may recall a former 40 goal winger Grabo played with that slumped playing with him, it wasn't until Domenic Moore became his Center that his scoring was rekindled. How do you spin this?

Grabo is not much of a playmaker, never has been. Mostly due to him overhandling the puck and mediocre ice vision. This is why he would be disasterous on a line with Kessel, you want your best player handling the puck. Not Grabo.

If anything, Grabo has benefitted from playing with Kule and Mac, more than the other way around. Kule covers up his defensive weaknesses and Mac brings a 20 goal presence to the line. Grabo's 25-29 assists a season does not equate to him helping his wingers out, this is a myth, and I just proved it to you once and for all. Look at his KHL stats, the guy is Cy Young.

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11-27-2012, 12:37 PM
  #128
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Well considering Mac scored exactly 5 more goals then he did in the season prior, I wouldn't brag or certainly give too much credit to a mediocre playmaker like Grabo is. Infact you may recall a former 40 goal winger Grabo played with that slumped playing with him, it wasn't until Domenic Moore became his Center that his scoring was rekindled. How do you spin this?

Grabo is not much of a playmaker, never has been. Mostly due to him overhandling the puck and mediocre ice vision. This is why he would be disasterous on a line with Kessel, you want your best player handling the puck. Not Grabo.

If anything, Grabo has benefitted from playing with Kule and Mac, more than the other way around. Kule covers up his defensive weaknesses and Mac brings a 20 goal presence to the line. Grabo's 25-29 assists a season does not equate to him helping his wingers out, this is a myth, and I just proved it to you once and for all. Look at his KHL stats, the guy is Cy Young.
I think I know who you're referrig to, but could you specify the player here?

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11-27-2012, 12:41 PM
  #129
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No doubt Grabo would be a #2 Centre on pretty much any Team in the League, silly to think otherwise.

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11-27-2012, 01:27 PM
  #130
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I think I know who you're referrig to, but could you specify the player here?
Jason Blake was the 40 goal winger.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/articl...leafs-practice

Interesting comment from Wilson:

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"The way I can get that out is to not play him," said Wilson. ``We don't want to crush his creativity but our game's about creating 2-on-1s and using your speed wide. Just way too many turnovers.

"He knows that. He's just got to use his linemates better and he'll score more points."
Obviously a lifelong challenge of a player like Grabo.

They didn't get along off the ice or on it. But that's a side story, Domenic Moore was a far better center setting up Blake then Grabovski was.

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11-27-2012, 01:43 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Jason Blake was the 40 goal winger.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/articl...leafs-practice

Interesting comment from Wilson:



Obviously a lifelong challenge of a player like Grabo.

They didn't get along off the ice or on it. But that's a side story, Domenic Moore was a far better center setting up Blake then Grabovski was.
But...Blake is as outlier an example as one might be able to select isn't he?

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11-27-2012, 01:48 PM
  #132
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But...Blake is as outlier an example as one might be able to select isn't he?
How so? Grabo has only demonstrated to have been succesful with 2 wingers thus far. When he played with Frattin, he slumped last season. Not what you expect from a player that is the highest paid fwd this season, if we have a season. A core top 6 fwd a team counts on. He's got to find a way to make a positive difference to his linemates, something he has trouble in doing other than with Mac and Kule. And yet those 2 are often maligned as fire hydrants for Grabo.

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11-27-2012, 04:39 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
No doubt Grabo would be a #2 Centre on pretty much any Team in the League, silly to think otherwise.
Expect for almost all the contenders.

LA
PIT
PHI
BOS
WAS
TBAY
STL
CHI (heavily depends on Sharp)
VAN
COL
SJ
DAL

Burke should continue building C depth, if for some reason Grabovski gets pushed down to a #3C role it will basically guarantee contender status.

Grabovski might be skilled enough to be the ~35th best C but against top teams he simply can't match up against the Toews/Backstroms/Crosby.

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11-27-2012, 04:53 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Expect for almost all the contenders.

LA
PIT
PHI
BOS
WAS
TBAY
STL
CHI (heavily depends on Sharp)
VAN
COL
SJ
DAL

Burke should continue building C depth, if for some reason Grabovski gets pushed down to a #3C role it will basically guarantee contender status.

Grabovski might be skilled enough to be the ~35th best C but against top teams he simply can't match up against the Toews/Backstroms/Crosby.
If you removed their current #2 he could fill the role is the point.

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11-27-2012, 04:59 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
If you removed their current #2 he could fill the role is the point.
Sorry for missing that. I think that's incredibly true but for the most part teams have a franchise C, not just a #1C ahead of their #2.

As someone without an emotional attachment but still a viewer, Grabovski should really be the least of TO's worries.

100% hustle, weak but not by any means "soft" and some nice dangles. Add in he's really the only C who's capable at both ends of the rink.

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11-27-2012, 05:29 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Sorry for missing that. I think that's incredibly true but for the most part teams have a franchise C, not just a #1C ahead of their #2.

As someone without an emotional attachment but still a viewer, Grabovski should really be the least of TO's worries.

100% hustle, weak but not by any means "soft" and some nice dangles. Add in he's really the only C who's capable at both ends of the rink.
Grabo isnt a worry to most. Like everything in life theres somebody out there who takes issue with it (in this case, Grabo).

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11-27-2012, 05:36 PM
  #137
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How so? Grabo has only demonstrated to have been succesful with 2 wingers thus far. When he played with Frattin, he slumped last season. Not what you expect from a player that is the highest paid fwd this season, if we have a season. A core top 6 fwd a team counts on. He's got to find a way to make a positive difference to his linemates, something he has trouble in doing other than with Mac and Kule. And yet those 2 are often maligned as fire hydrants for Grabo.
Blake's production is itself an anomaly isn't it? 40 goals once. 28 once. 25 twice. 22 once in 14 seasons of NHL hockey. Before and after Grabovski, Blake's production has no constancy to it. Nothing to really determine why he was able to generate a season of excellence.

Grabo's arc seems constant irrespective of the wingers he was paired with, doesn't it? Even while Kulemin slumped, there's a degree of consistency. And I would think had Kulemin progressed couldn't we expect a raise in each player's production into that 65+ point range?

Maybe it's something more aesthetic in Grabo's play? If it is, he's not the first player to respond differently to different situations.

Kule is maligned as a drag on Grabo? Outside of reasonable consideration of the LY tragedy? I'd consider the source in those instances. Mac yes, but Kulemin?

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11-27-2012, 05:53 PM
  #138
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Grabo isnt a worry to most. Like everything in life theres somebody out there who takes issue with it (in this case, Grabo).
I'm not sure anyone would complain if someone could come up with a better option.

Same goes for every team in the league regardless of nationality, a better player is a better player.

Would really like to hear the options and not the fantasy Getzlaf crap people blow out their pipes.

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11-27-2012, 06:43 PM
  #139
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I'm not sure anyone would complain if someone could come up with a better option.

Same goes for every team in the league regardless of nationality, a better player is a better player.

Would really like to hear the options and not the fantasy Getzlaf crap people blow out their pipes.
That as they say "is the rub"

Just who is better? And do you want a #1 or just to replace him as #2?

I think in the realm of #2C's if you were to replace him, your looking at guys like Kessler and J Staal. Neither available. Same goes for Fisher who even with his Senator past I would welcome to the team.

Then there are guys like Lecavalier, M. Richards etc. are only #2's because their team has an All-star as a #1.

Briere might be interesting for more potential offense. But if people are pissed about Grabo's defensive play Briere would drive them to the nut house.

Too bad MInny is loading up for a run or I would have been interested in taking a shot at Koivu.

If it was going to be easy I think Burke would have already made a big splash before the lockout.

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11-27-2012, 07:30 PM
  #140
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That as they say "is the rub"

Just who is better? And do you want a #1 or just to replace him as #2?

I think in the realm of #2C's if you were to replace him, your looking at guys like Kessler and J Staal. Neither available. Same goes for Fisher who even with his Senator past I would welcome to the team.

Then there are guys like Lecavalier, M. Richards etc. are only #2's because their team has an All-star as a #1.

Briere might be interesting for more potential offense. But if people are pissed about Grabo's defensive play Briere would drive them to the nut house.

Too bad MInny is loading up for a run or I would have been interested in taking a shot at Koivu.

If it was going to be easy I think Burke would have already made a big splash before the lockout.
Three 5m pay range centers would be better than an 8m 1C 5m 2C and some scrub three 3c. You dont need a superstar 1C if you can make 3 competent lines and of course have a sniper or two on wings per line.

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11-27-2012, 08:21 PM
  #141
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Three 5m pay range centers would be better than an 8m 1C 5m 2C and some scrub three 3c. You dont need a superstar 1C if you can make 3 competent lines and of course have a sniper or two on wings per line.
That is the thing people seem to forget. There are two wingers that are on the ice too.

There have been several good examples of the best line in hockey having a sub-par center.

The Selanne-Rucchin-Kariya and Bertuzzi-Morrisson-Naslund lines being two of the best more recent examples that come to mind.

It makes a huge difference, if Grabo is the best player on the 2nd line or if he is the 3rd best player on the 2nd line.

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11-27-2012, 08:23 PM
  #142
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Bad #1 but great #2. Equivalent to Plekanec imo.

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11-27-2012, 10:37 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Expect for almost all the contenders.

LA
PIT
PHI
BOS
WAS
TBAY
STL
CHI (heavily depends on Sharp)
VAN
COL
SJ
DAL
Thank you for providing another angle to try to show the non-believers just how average of a #2C Grabo is. Replacing PIT (Malkin is no #2C) with NYR (Stepan is looking very promising), and adding all the teams who have #2Cs playing on their first line due to lack of depth (MTL, FLA, NSH, etc), that list of better #2Cs becomes even longer.

I seriously doubt it'll change their minds about Grabo being one of the better #2Cs in the league, though. He's #31 in center production, how can he not be one of the top end #2Cs?

Grabo as our #2C is not an immediate problem, but it's far from an optimal situation going forward in our quest to become contenders.

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11-27-2012, 10:42 PM
  #144
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That is the thing people seem to forget. There are two wingers that are on the ice too.

There have been several good examples of the best line in hockey having a sub-par center.

The Selanne-Rucchin-Kariya and Bertuzzi-Morrisson-Naslund lines being two of the best more recent examples that come to mind.

It makes a huge difference, if Grabo is the best player on the 2nd line or if he is the 3rd best player on the 2nd line.
How does paying $5.5M to the 6th best top 6 forward fit into your cap space?

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11-27-2012, 10:54 PM
  #145
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How does paying $5.5M to the 6th best top 6 forward fit into your cap space?
Fits in fine if wingers aren't making huge bucks. Don't forget until they move Bozak Grabo will never be the #6 forward in our top 6.

Grabo got his contract because he not only earned a decent deal but he would have got close to that somewhere as a UFA. IS he highly paid? ya. Overpaid? NOt really.

Now if you got wingers on 2nd deals or ELC's then there is no reason why Grabo couldn't be the 3rd best player on the lline and yet still be the highest paid player on the line.

Could be as simple as Frattin/Kulemin and JVR going crazy together next season.

Lupul earned less than Grabo last year, and if the season is gone, he won't have enough leverage to demand much, if any, more than Grabo is getting now on his next contract.

I have no issue with the cap space right now.

Maybe 3 years down the road it will be come an issue. We will see.

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11-27-2012, 11:09 PM
  #146
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Because we can find a better #2 centre then Grabovski. Everyone knows our problem is a #1 centre. Leave Grabovski where he is. Bozak is the one out of his comfort zone in terms of playing time / which line he's on.

Talk about finding something to complain about..

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11-27-2012, 11:33 PM
  #147
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Because we can find a better #2 centre then Grabovski. Everyone knows our problem is a #1 centre. Leave Grabovski where he is. Bozak is the one out of his comfort zone in terms of playing time / which line he's on.

Talk about finding something to complain about..
Way to miss the point completely.

Because we can't find a better #1 center than Bozak. Everyone knows our problem is a #1 goalie. Leave Bozak where he is until we can find a better alternative. etc etc. Just because something is not the main problem, doesn't mean it's not an issue.

There is no point discussing whether Bozak is an optimal #1C or not. Noone in their right mind would claim him to be. Grabo being able to fill a #1C role (the premise of this thread), or even being a great option for #2C, however, is debatable.

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11-28-2012, 12:05 AM
  #148
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Fits in fine if wingers aren't making huge bucks. Don't forget until they move Bozak Grabo will never be the #6 forward in our top 6.

Grabo got his contract because he not only earned a decent deal but he would have got close to that somewhere as a UFA. IS he highly paid? ya. Overpaid? NOt really.

Now if you got wingers on 2nd deals or ELC's then there is no reason why Grabo couldn't be the 3rd best player on the lline and yet still be the highest paid player on the line.

Could be as simple as Frattin/Kulemin and JVR going crazy together next season.

Lupul earned less than Grabo last year, and if the season is gone, he won't have enough leverage to demand much, if any, more than Grabo is getting now on his next contract.

I have no issue with the cap space right now.

Maybe 3 years down the road it will be come an issue. We will see.
Short term, we have no cap issues, I agree. That's mostly due to Burke's great cap management. The really tricky part is just starting, though, when we won't be able to throw money away on stop gaps, and we'll have to start offering longer terms to draw in some FAs. Management has to start deciding who the keepers are, and who should be let go.

JVR is the best hope to emerge as a "bargain" winger for Grabo, if the two of them can develop some chemistry. I really have my fingers crossed for this. Having JVR locked up for the next 6 seasons at a reasonable contract could make the 2nd line formidable for the foreseeable future.

Other than JVR, any other ELC or bargain contract wingers outperforming Grabo will likely be a temporary scenarios, as breakout seasons generally result in significant raises. It's not just sustainable to have wingers outperform their $5.5M center, and make considerably less. Burke's trying to build a contender, not a one hit wonder.

The Lupul trade was a big gamble that paid off huge. There's nothing to say Burke can't pull or more of these type of trades or signings, but there's a decent chance that these high risk moves backfire.

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11-28-2012, 12:07 AM
  #149
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Way to miss the point completely.

Because we can't find a better #1 center than Bozak. Everyone knows our problem is a #1 goalie. Leave Bozak where he is until we can find a better alternative. etc etc. Just because something is not the main problem, doesn't mean it's not an issue.

There is no point discussing whether Bozak is an optimal #1C or not. Noone in their right mind would claim him to be. Grabo being able to fill a #1C role (the premise of this thread), or even being a great option for #2C, however, is debatable.
As I said earlier there is a history of not only a top line but the BEST line in the NHL having a sub-par Center.

So in that light I think Grabo could somewhat provide what a Morrison or Rucchin would be expected to bring. I think the extra goals he would give up would be ballanced by the added offence, (Just going by him having more pure offensive talent and being put in thesame position.).

Then again is Kessel-Lupul equal to Selanne-Kariya or Bertuzzi-Naslund?

I don't think so but the way they were scoring it sure brought back memories.

SImply put: If the linemates were good enough Grabo could be a decent #1 center in the NHL. Along the lines of Morrison and Rucchin, but with a bit more offense and a bit less defense..

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11-28-2012, 12:30 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
As I said earlier there is a history of not only a top line but the BEST line in the NHL having a sub-par Center.

So in that light I think Grabo could somewhat provide what a Morrison or Rucchin would be expected to bring. I think the extra goals he would give up would be ballanced by the added offence, (Just going by him having more pure offensive talent and being put in thesame position.).

Then again is Kessel-Lupul equal to Selanne-Kariya or Bertuzzi-Naslund?

I don't think so but the way they were scoring it sure brought back memories.

SImply put: If the linemates were good enough Grabo could be a decent #1 center in the NHL. Along the lines of Morrison and Rucchin, but with a bit more offense and a bit less defense..
Playing on the first or second line doesn't make one #1C or #2C, IMO. Morrison and Rucchin were essentially tweeners who were along the ride with great wingers. It shows the value of being able to develop chemistry with your wingers, and players who are able to adapt to their linemates have a better chance to be successful, in spite of their natural skillsets. I do not believe adaptability is one of Grabo's strengths.

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