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Old
11-24-2012, 03:21 PM
  #26
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implying that these NHL players even passed high school and were not pushed through.

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11-24-2012, 03:33 PM
  #27
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I think it's less about many of these players not having a college education and more about them not having the life experiences to truly understand how good they've got it.

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11-24-2012, 06:08 PM
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The thing that most annoys me during this lockout, above all else, is listening to various fan's sense of entitlement.

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11-24-2012, 10:24 PM
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Based on guys I used to play with, most got passed on through high school. I stopped playing at 16 after one year in Penticton. A few guys I know went pretty far, two got to the NHL. Let me just say that it is a good thing that they can afford to hire somebody to balance their cheque books. School was definitely not even a consideration for the two that made it. Once they were scouted, it was hockey and training 24/7 and nothing else mattered. I would say they would be about a grade 9-10 level of education if I was being generous.

Some of the other guys I played with played long enough to get scholarships. That was their end game. Very different paths. I would think this mix is likely the same in most pro sports in that if you are good enough to go pro, you usually know early and everything else is secondary. Some guys play to get school paid for and some do both.

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11-24-2012, 10:39 PM
  #30
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This is part of the reason I'd like to see players get drafted at 20 years old instead of 18. First of all, draft picks would be less of a crap shoot. But I'm sure we would also see more players get at least some education before their pro career begins. Maybe college hockey would become something special, much like college basketball and football in the states. It would be great to see future NHLers playing for Canadian universities for a year or two after they're done with the CHL. There seems to be a lot of players that are just lost once they retire from the league, if they had a good education when they were young I imagine the transition into "real life" would be much smoother. Just imagine retiring with a couple million at age 35, but you've also got your Bcom and actually know what to do with your money.

It just seems like we're rushing a lot of kids into the league. They're expected to be professionals when they're still teenagers, so obviously they're not going to have time to focus on education and other aspects of their life. I'm sure many players are stunted in some ways because they were rushed into their careers at such a young age.

Teams would really have a much better idea of what kind of player they're going to have at the draft too. At 20 years old you usually have a pretty good idea of how good a player will be, 18 is pretty early to tell in my opinion. Although it would make for less interesting debate on who goes where in the draft.

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11-25-2012, 04:20 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
The fact is, there are a lot of dumb mofos in the NHL. They can't even negotiate their own personal contracts - they get agents for that - and yet Fehr expects us to believe they are negotiating their own CBA. If that be true, why isn't a weekly case of Kraft Dinner per player and a copy of the latest NHL video game negotiated in the deal?
A large majority of people use Real Estate agents to buy and sell their homes, does that make them Dumb mofos?

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11-25-2012, 12:09 PM
  #32
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I think this thread topic has been prematurely dismissed. Lets analyse a bit more.

A recurring discussion in the thread is that education doesn't make you smarter. Thats a simplistic view and undervalues the whole point of education which is to fill knowledge into what otherwise might be an empty vessel. Sure theres people without high education that are smart and have a lot of self attained knowledge. But on the average the way to accrue knowledge is to get an education. University education particularly teaches not only knowledge but for most students builds, nurtures, sustains complex analytical thinking processes. Where the good student ceases becoming a passive viewer of information but interacts with that information and assesses it.

If people want to extend the "education doesn't make you smarter" logic then at some point you're arguing that the person with a completed post secondary education on the average isn't sounding brighter than a person picking potatoes for 20years. Thats the extreme, sure, but people making the argument that education doesn't matter are losing sight of that.

Next, as mentioned higher education specifically teaches one how to think. Students learn how to carefully read, assess data, *facts*, analyse, summarise. They learn stats, scientific methold, analytical enquiry, debate, philosophy, etc. In short postsecondary students learn countless methods of thought and analysis that the less educated person may or may not have.

So now when we look at the average hockey player, drafted young, billeted and playing away from home in Junior Hockey we see a person transplanted, living with strangers, less incentive to continue or do well in school, and no bio parents around checking on their homework or making them go to school. So what you have in a lot of hockey players is an undeveloped education even at the highschool level. Lots of missed classes for games, roadtrips and the young Junior Hockey player typically misses a lot of days due to hockey roadtrips and with this being a big country travel having much more of a factor on education. With team busses on roadtrips not exactly evoking library and reading.

Next, obviously hockey players by and large aren't required to go to postsecondary as is the expectation in say football. NHL caliber hockey players, most of them, and the vast majority of Canadian NHL players simply get drafted, jump to NHL, AHL and start their career immediately. No college years in the interim.

What this results in is players more likely to not express themselves adequately, to have trouble debating or arguing points, to have trouble putting two cogent sentences together, and who have trouble analyzing complex information and then fallback to simple emotive frustration. Voicing things like "Bettmans a Cancer" "He sucks" "Fire his ass" etc.
Not surprisingly the average NHL players take resembles the kind of feedback you'd get in a Junior High School corridor. Because for many of them thats where their education got stunted.

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11-27-2012, 07:43 AM
  #33
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I think this thread topic has been prematurely dismissed. Lets analyse a bit more.

A recurring discussion in the thread is that education doesn't make you smarter. Thats a simplistic view and undervalues the whole point of education which is to fill knowledge into what otherwise might be an empty vessel. Sure theres people without high education that are smart and have a lot of self attained knowledge. But on the average the way to accrue knowledge is to get an education. University education particularly teaches not only knowledge but for most students builds, nurtures, sustains complex analytical thinking processes. Where the good student ceases becoming a passive viewer of information but interacts with that information and assesses it.

Replacement; I have spent 25 years traveling the world and this has given me advantage in dealing with some people who have degrees up their back side but had to practical knowledge on the subject. A few years ago I worked briefly as a consultant for a travel company that was expanding into Africa and Eastern Europe. Most of the upper management all had lots of fancy degrees, but had never been to those countries and had no idea of the reality vs the theory that they had been taught. I have gone back to school and am attending uni with kids who are 19/20 years old and I am dealing with academics who only have the theory they teach as a reference point of their position(I am doing business and have run and owned several businesses over the years)

If people want to extend the "education doesn't make you smarter" logic then at some point you're arguing that the person with a completed post secondary education on the average isn't sounding brighter than a person picking potatoes for 20years. Thats the extreme, sure, but people making the argument that education doesn't matter are losing sight of that.

Here in England I regularly deal with very bright and "well off" people who left school at 16 to go to work. Most did a lot of traveling when they were young or found something they loved and have been able to make a living at it.

Next, as mentioned higher education specifically teaches one how to think. Students learn how to carefully read, assess data, *facts*, analyse, summarise. They learn stats, scientific methold, analytical enquiry, debate, philosophy, etc. In short postsecondary students learn countless methods of thought and analysis that the less educated person may or may not have.

This depends on what field they are going into or the complex nature of their desired business.

So now when we look at the average hockey player, drafted young, billeted and playing away from home in Junior Hockey we see a person transplanted, living with strangers, less incentive to continue or do well in school, and no bio parents around checking on their homework or making them go to school. So what you have in a lot of hockey players is an undeveloped education even at the highschool level. Lots of missed classes for games, roadtrips and the young Junior Hockey player typically misses a lot of days due to hockey roadtrips and with this being a big country travel having much more of a factor on education. With team busses on roadtrips not exactly evoking library and reading.

Have you look at the graduation rates of University players? in the 80's it was in the low 50's. A few years ago NCAA released a report that it was now up to 80 percent. Problem was found with football players and basketball players, because there are so many sports in Unis the NCAA was able to sort of hide the fact that many uni football teams often have only a 10% graduation rate of starting players. It got so bad that in 2003 the NCAA had to rejig the rules. During congressional meetings a few years ago, Lawrence Taylor and others painted the bleak picture of the fact that many players still do not attend classes. WE need to separate Canadian Universities from American because hockey players and Football players who go to Canadian unis usually graduate. In the states in the opposite.

Next, obviously hockey players by and large aren't required to go to postsecondary as is the expectation in say football. NHL caliber hockey players, most of them, and the vast majority of Canadian NHL players simply get drafted, jump to NHL, AHL and start their career immediately. No college years in the interim.

My final year in Edmonton Louie Debrusk was in one of my uni classes and Steven Rice was also attending classes at the U. The numbers of NHL players who attend classes in the off season has increased greatly over the past decade

What this results in is players more likely to not express themselves adequately, to have trouble debating or arguing points, to have trouble putting two cogent sentences together, and who have trouble analyzing complex information and then fallback to simple emotive frustration. Voicing things like "Bettmans a Cancer" "He sucks" "Fire his ass" etc.
Not surprisingly the average NHL players take resembles the kind of feedback you'd get in a Junior High School corridor. Because for many of them thats where their education got stunted.

How many nhlers have been caught with guns? How many involved in violent crimes? How many doing coke or other class A drugs? Compared to Basketball and Football? While some NBA and NFL players can be pointed out as examples of what happens when a player goes to uni. Here is a stat that came out in 2005. 75% of pro athletes are bankrupt within 10 years of the career ending. Can you guess which pros had the lowest rate of going bust? the NHL, NFL had the highest fallowed by the NBA. The NBA number has fallen since more foreign players have started playing.

When talking about higher education and the bonuses from that, using athletes as an example is not a good starting point as most do not graduate and leave with hardly any higher education at all. I forget the former NFL player (he now teaches at one of the top unis in NY state) he wrote an op-ed piece a few years ago breaking down how little education some players get in universit
y.

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Old
11-27-2012, 09:00 AM
  #34
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What does their education have to do with their tweets or how much they think they should make? Bizarre...
This I agree with. This thread has prejudice written all over it. Grade level bigot. Thread should be remove on this grounds.

prej·u·di·cial *(prj-dshl)
1. ....
2. Causing or tending to preconceived judgment or convictions

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11-27-2012, 09:01 AM
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NFL players get college educations. NBA players have to play at least one college season. MLB players it's a mixed bag. Just because they go to college/university though doesn't necessarily make them any wiser. Some NHL players have post secondary education to some degree but it's probably less than 20%.
Maybe so , but how many NBA players smart ? How many of them turn to the drug trade once they are done in the NBA ? Their buddies from the hood sucks the cash out of them and then when retirement hits they can not afford their NBA life style = the drug trade

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11-27-2012, 09:07 AM
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Maybe so , but how many NBA players smart ?
Yo, Adrian

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Old
11-27-2012, 09:50 AM
  #37
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implying that these NHL players even passed high school and were not pushed through.
*cough*Dion*cough*

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11-27-2012, 10:09 AM
  #38
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NFL players get college educations. NBA players have to play at least one college season. MLB players it's a mixed bag. Just because they go to college/university though doesn't necessarily make them any wiser. Some NHL players have post secondary education to some degree but it's probably less than 20%.
how many of those players get degrees? that is the question. Most do not get one while in uni and only a small % go back and get one.

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11-27-2012, 10:18 AM
  #39
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how many of those players get degrees? that is the question. Most do not get one while in uni and only a small % go back and get one.
Regardless the college/university education doesn't mean much. What's an arts degree going to do for someon playing professional sports?

On the flip side of the coin and I understand why Biz was defending the blanket comment by the ignorant fan but for the guys he was saying that went to Harvard and Yale what does that really mean? Alright you a guy who got his undergrad in Arts or hell even nursing or physical education, does it make them smarter for business negotiations? Let's say they have a commerce degree, I mean while it may help them be more educated it doesn't make them competent of a negotiation until they are actively involved in one. Sitting back and being faithful to your side isn't being actively involved in a negotiation.

So really a professioanal sports player who has an education or doesn't really hasn't had enough real world experience to have that education apply to anything since they've been so wrapped up in conditioning and pro sports. So one group really isn't any wiser than the other. The seperation in the two groups usually comes after pro-sports when one group is flat-ass broke with an addiction problem and one group has found something to do and is able to live a sustainable life. However these groups aren't necessarily divided by post-secondary and non-post-secondary.

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11-27-2012, 12:55 PM
  #40
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you make it sound like a contract is as simple as "you play two years i give you 10 million". contracts, espicially pro sports ones are very thorough and complicated and have an agent who is experienced in these things is probably the smartest think you can do.
That's great but, it has nothing to do with my point.

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11-27-2012, 01:00 PM
  #41
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There are a lot of myths about the student athlete in big US schools. The first myth is that most do not get their degrees. In basketball and football the graduation rate is about 70-80% in many schools and it is actually a little higher than the general student body for athletics as a whole.

These numbers do fluctuate considerably from school to school. Notre Dame for example has a graduation rate for football/basketball in the high 90's. Say hat you will about Joe Paterno but he had a tremendous record as far as keeping his athletes in the classroom.

Of course no one will suggest that everyone of these guys will get degrees in a challenging discipline, but they are at least graduating. In my own field there are some pretty solid athletes including Michael Jordan and David Robinson.


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11-27-2012, 01:37 PM
  #42
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Regardless the college/university education doesn't mean much. What's an arts degree going to do for someon playing professional sports?

On the flip side of the coin and I understand why Biz was defending the blanket comment by the ignorant fan but for the guys he was saying that went to Harvard and Yale what does that really mean? Alright you a guy who got his undergrad in Arts or hell even nursing or physical education, does it make them smarter for business negotiations? Let's say they have a commerce degree, I mean while it may help them be more educated it doesn't make them competent of a negotiation until they are actively involved in one. Sitting back and being faithful to your side isn't being actively involved in a negotiation.

So really a professioanal sports player who has an education or doesn't really hasn't had enough real world experience to have that education apply to anything since they've been so wrapped up in conditioning and pro sports. So one group really isn't any wiser than the other. The seperation in the two groups usually comes after pro-sports when one group is flat-ass broke with an addiction problem and one group has found something to do and is able to live a sustainable life. However these groups aren't necessarily divided by post-secondary and non-post-secondary.
If I can find the article I will re post it. A few years ago a uni player was more or less told by the uni to turn pro because he would not get a diploma. While the official records had him passing classes, in reality he was being marked up and was helped by the marking curb that the uni used.

For me the statement "Football and Basketball players are smarter because they go to uni" needs to be argued greatly. While some players do take full advantage the scholarship to uni--most do not. The NCAA is an organization I have great problem with, they flex their muscle when the main stream media tries to gather information about graduation rates, school marks and other key points of what the players should be doing at school. In the 90's the NCAA got exposed for being not as transparent as they claimed to be. When the question was raised about graduation or marks on either 60 minutes or 22/20 the NCAA produced all this information about an 80% graduation average of ALL NCAA athletes. Well, while this is true, that 80% include stuff like golf, wrestling, athletics and every other sports you can find on most universities. Something like only 20% of football starters actually get their degree and as stated most Uni encourage the players to come out after 3 years. because in that fourth year they get their degree and as much money as Football and Basketball bring to the UNI--When something like 10 to 15 uni grads went before congress as said that they barely went to school and other people had written their papers. UNI reputation is built upon having legit grads.

here is a book to read

William C. Rhoden's Forty Million Dollar Slaves: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Black Athlete

I read it a year ago and it was an interesting read in how Athletes, in this case Black, our Sheppard through SOME unis and do not attend classes.

Dexter Manley graduated from Oklahoma State, but he could not read or write and when asked what he graduated in, he had no idea. Lawrence taylor was another footballer who said his Uni creds were not legit

here are some articles to read

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...sports/308643/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souther...otball_scandal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...letics_scandal

problems at with the NCAA

http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/problem-ncaa
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/sp...e-surface.html
http://www.maizenbrew.com/2012/8/3/3...ncaa-and-its-a
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foot...13-commitments
http://blogergism.blogspot.co.uk/201...sanctions.html
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/comme...ory?id=5420728

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11-27-2012, 02:11 PM
  #43
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If I can find the article I will re post it. A few years ago a uni player was more or less told by the uni to turn pro because he would not get a diploma. While the official records had him passing classes, in reality he was being marked up and was helped by the marking curb that the uni used.

For me the statement "Football and Basketball players are smarter because they go to uni" needs to be argued greatly. While some players do take full advantage the scholarship to uni--most do not. The NCAA is an organization I have great problem with, they flex their muscle when the main stream media tries to gather information about graduation rates, school marks and other key points of what the players should be doing at school. In the 90's the NCAA got exposed for being not as transparent as they claimed to be. When the question was raised about graduation or marks on either 60 minutes or 22/20 the NCAA produced all this information about an 80% graduation average of ALL NCAA athletes. Well, while this is true, that 80% include stuff like golf, wrestling, athletics and every other sports you can find on most universities. Something like only 20% of football starters actually get their degree and as stated most Uni encourage the players to come out after 3 years. because in that fourth year they get their degree and as much money as Football and Basketball bring to the UNI--When something like 10 to 15 uni grads went before congress as said that they barely went to school and other people had written their papers. UNI reputation is built upon having legit grads.

here is a book to read

William C. Rhoden's Forty Million Dollar Slaves: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Black Athlete

I read it a year ago and it was an interesting read in how Athletes, in this case Black, our Sheppard through SOME unis and do not attend classes.

Dexter Manley graduated from Oklahoma State, but he could not read or write and when asked what he graduated in, he had no idea. Lawrence taylor was another footballer who said his Uni creds were not legit

here are some articles to read

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...sports/308643/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souther...otball_scandal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...letics_scandal

problems at with the NCAA

http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/problem-ncaa
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/sp...e-surface.html
http://www.maizenbrew.com/2012/8/3/3...ncaa-and-its-a
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foot...13-commitments
http://blogergism.blogspot.co.uk/201...sanctions.html
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/comme...ory?id=5420728
I don't believe some of your claims. Specifically, the claims that 20% of fotball starters complete their degrees or that most schools encourage their players to quit after 3 years. The latter claim makes almost no sense given the significant investment that schools make in their athletes. Why would they not want to see them play their senior year?

I have had lots of discussions with US colleagues about their experiences with student athletes in their schools. While I have heard a few horror stories most do not see much of an issue.

I have no doubt that there will be isolated examples of graduates like LT or Dexter Manley. Sadly though, such cases are not exclusive of student athletes.

I have lots of issues with the NCAA. But I thibk it is fair to say that the opportunity to at least have a shot at a decent education is enhanced by college athletics. And while we all know examples of people who made good without an education the fact is that a degree of any type does make a significant difference in the prospects of most

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11-27-2012, 02:29 PM
  #44
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I don't believe some of your claims. Specifically, the claims that 20% of fotball starters complete their degrees or that most schools encourage their players to quit after 3 years. The latter claim makes almost no sense given the significant investment that schools make in their athletes. Why would they not want to see them play their senior year?

I have had lots of discussions with US colleagues about their experiences with student athletes in their schools. While I have heard a few horror stories most do not see much of an issue.

I have no doubt that there will be isolated examples of graduates like LT or Dexter Manley. Sadly though, such cases are not exclusive of student athletes.

I have lots of issues with the NCAA. But I thibk it is fair to say that the opportunity to at least have a shot at a decent education is enhanced by college athletics. And while we all know examples of people who made good without an education the fact is that a degree of any type does make a significant difference in the prospects of most
The NCAA claims that 80% of their athletes graduate. This is because they have something like 25 sports under their umbrella. Here is a question--the next NBA or NFL draft--pay attention how many grads are coming out after 4 years--you will have your answer

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11-27-2012, 02:30 PM
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Just a quick observation, but I bet MLB has the highest. They just about all go to college and baseball players usually don't make it to the MLB until they are 22-24. Thus they have the most time and opportunity to get a education. Many college players are not drafted until they are 24. Any other sport and at that point your pro sport hopes are done.

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11-27-2012, 02:44 PM
  #46
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My bias towards the public education system in Canada would lead me to believe that general metrics of education (literacy, financial planning, knowledge of national and global events...etc) are higher in the NHL than the other big 4 sports, with the exception of baseball, as already discussed.

However, I've never seen a more vocal group of poorly qualified people talk about an issue that they are clueless towards. It's a bunch of spoiled brats who have taken to publically slandering educated, qualified people who run the league. Guys like Crosby who put on a suit, pretend to play lawyer, and can barely piece the words "we're still far apart" together. Let the grown ups deal with the grown up issues. Sit still and eat your dinner at the kids table.

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11-27-2012, 02:48 PM
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The NCAA claims that 80% of their athletes graduate. This is because they have something like 25 sports under their umbrella. Here is a question--the next NBA or NFL draft--pay attention how many grads are coming out after 4 years--you will have your answer
You are looking at the wrong group. The vast majority of players who play Division I football or basketball do not get drafted. Moreover, I am happy to admit that many do not graduate in 4 years. This is most often by design. Many student athletes will take a reduced schedule due to the time demands of their sport. Add in the red shirt system and what you have is a reasonable five year plan.

I have a nephew who has recently graduate from highschool with a 90+% avergage including MATH 30/31, English 30, Chem 30 and Physics 30. He is a very good football player and basketball player and is currently playing in the Canadian college system. He only took 3 courses in his first term because football takes about 4-5 hours per day on the weekdays and more on the weekends. He is a very srious student but will take 5 years to complete his degree.

I have also been involved in football at the University level. Granted this was in Canada, but I can say from first hand experience that scholastic performance is important.

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11-27-2012, 03:00 PM
  #48
okgooil
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
You are looking at the wrong group. The vast majority of players who play Division I football or basketball do not get drafted. Moreover, I am happy to admit that many do not graduate in 4 years. This is most often by design. Many student athletes will take a reduced schedule due to the time demands of their sport. Add in the red shirt system and what you have is a reasonable five year plan.

I have a nephew who has recently graduate from highschool with a 90+% avergage including MATH 30/31, English 30, Chem 30 and Physics 30. He is a very good football player and basketball player and is currently playing in the Canadian college system. He only took 3 courses in his first term because football takes about 4-5 hours per day on the weekdays and more on the weekends. He is a very srious student but will take 5 years to complete his degree.

I have also been involved in football at the University level. Granted this was in Canada, but I can say from first hand experience that scholastic performance is important.
I know quite a few Athletes at the U of A, for the bears hockey and football teams. Some are good students, others just get by to play sports. Regardless, ya, I will say for sure none of them get their degrees in 4 years. It takes them all either 5 or 6 years to complete.


Last edited by okgooil: 11-27-2012 at 03:05 PM.
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11-27-2012, 03:07 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by PACKY D ELEPHANT View Post
implying that these NHL players even passed high school and were not pushed through.
ya, this can be a sad story. I grew up in a small town playing hockey. I knew quite a few teachers who were pretty easy on some students who played hockey. They knew how serious the kids were about hockey and were willing to give them some easy make up assignments ect. Reality is many of the kids never truly earned a high school diploma. I am sure this happens in all sports and probably is particularly bad in small towns.

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11-27-2012, 03:12 PM
  #50
Fourier
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
I know quite a few Athletes at the U of A, for the bears hockey and football teams. Some are good students, others just get by to play sports. Regardless, ya, I will say for sure none of them get their degrees in 4 years. It takes them all either 5 or 6 years to complete.
In this respect, they are actually not so different than the typical student.

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