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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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11-27-2012, 11:31 AM
  #26
Rabid Ranger
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
WHC shows the depth of the country, so it does mean something either way. WJC: I tend to agree with because it vary between year to year, but again it shows how good the young depth of a country is.
It demonstrates buy in. Countries like the U.S. rarely if at all can get even a small percentage of it's top talent to show up. To me, the Olympics remain they best vehicle to judge best on best talent.

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11-27-2012, 11:34 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by StrappingYoungChad View Post
Who do you guys think currently holds the 7th spot? (Next to Russia, Czech Republic, Sweden, USA, Canada, and Finland)
Swiss or Slovakia in my estimation.

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11-27-2012, 11:34 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Well, they could pull off an elimination game upset for sure, at any level, but I think most would still consider it an "upset". Many years. At the Olympics the margins become smaller because those countries can indeed put together a 20-player team to compete with anybody. But the depth might not be the same to put them in the same category at all the other levels too as consistently as the other 4 countries I mentioned.
Well, would you say that Finland has been upsetting for two straight olympics now? 2006 silver, and arguably the most dominant team throughout the tournament ( apart from final :/ ), 2010 bronze, solid effort apart from that colossal meltdown in semifinals.

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11-27-2012, 11:35 AM
  #29
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Canada has still won three of the last four senior best on best tournaments and Russia hasn't done that great. Also Russia won one Junior gold, Canada won five straight then two silvers then a bronze.

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11-27-2012, 11:52 AM
  #30
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Why is this thread in the Prospects section? There is no way of determining who is right, so what is the point of this thread? It's just going to be a ****storm.

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Good point... away it goes...

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11-27-2012, 11:58 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
It demonstrates buy in. Countries like the U.S. rarely if at all can get even a small percentage of it's top talent to show up. To me, the Olympics remain they best vehicle to judge best on best talent.
Of course, but that doesn't mean we should discredit the WC and its meaning. It highlights depth, and as it is played every year, has merit (and of course limitations) for measuring the international hockey powers.

The olympics also has it's limitations. It's once every 4 years. Russia got spanked by Canada in 2010, but no sane person would say that the best on best between those nations isn't extremely close.

The World Juniors are overated in North America. They are not a clear measurement of anything, other than Canada has much greater depth at the Junior level. Nobody disputes this, but when you begin to move into the Senior level, it doesn't matter that much. Few players from any of these elite U-20 teams ever become Senior nationals.

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11-27-2012, 11:59 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Oan View Post
Well, would you say that Finland has been upsetting for two straight olympics now? 2006 silver, and arguably the most dominant team throughout the tournament ( apart from final :/ ), 2010 bronze, solid effort apart from that colossal meltdown in semifinals.
Yes, that is what I meant too... the Olympics is different, but I am thinking across all levels of major international tournaments, and not really feeling like the Olympics is more than just one component of the whole picture. Those who strongly feel that the Olympics are a very major component would have to put Finland right in with the rest. And indeed, they are better candidates than anybody else for an "upset" at other levels too IMHO.

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11-27-2012, 12:06 PM
  #33
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Slovakia
Right now, but with Gaborik, Hossa and Chara aging and not much in the pipeline my money is on the Swiss to take that 7th spot in 3-5 years.

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11-27-2012, 12:14 PM
  #34
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And France and Uzbekistan as well.
france? no

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11-27-2012, 12:19 PM
  #35
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Considering both junior and senior level.

With the recent success at the junior hockey (winning couple super series, winning gold and silver at WJHC) plus being constantly successful at senior tourneys for the last 5 years(mostly WHC, Olympics was failed), can we say that at this point Russia is the #1 nation in hockey?

No troll thread, just an opinion.
Russia did not medal in vancouver so no. To be honest I see the same fate in 2014 their are some big questions in net

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11-27-2012, 12:23 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Of course, but that doesn't mean we should discredit the WC and its meaning. It highlights depth, and as it is played every year, has merit (and of course limitations) for measuring the international hockey powers.

The olympics also has it's limitations. It's once every 4 years. Russia got spanked by Canada in 2010, but no sane person would say that the best on best between those nations isn't extremely close.

The World Juniors are overated in North America. They are not a clear measurement of anything, other than Canada has much greater depth at the Junior level. Nobody disputes this, but when you begin to move into the Senior level, it doesn't matter that much. Few players from any of these elite U-20 teams ever become Senior nationals.
How are the WJC overated?

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11-27-2012, 12:29 PM
  #37
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They not even close to do that.

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11-27-2012, 12:56 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Why is this thread in the Prospects section? There is no way of determining who is right, so what is the point of this thread? It's just going to be a ****storm.

Anyway, everyone get into the HFBoards Bombshelter.
Now these above are the truest words that will be spoken in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Yes, but you have to use something to measure the rankings, tournament results over a long period are the only measurable way to determine rankings no matter what we may think of the relevant merits of that tournament or its format. We just can't use individual player stats from league play. Canada is number 1 for now and pending the results of Sochi.
I agree that we need tournaments for seeding at other tournaments, but as a comparison I would say they are relatively worthless. If teams were all sending their best players and they played each other for a meaningful amount of games, then I would agree with you somewhat.

The results are just too random in single hockey games to draw any meaningful conclusions, even at the Olympics. Take the 2010 gold medal game for example. Is Canada the best hockey country because Crosby could squirt the puck through Miller's legs? If Luongo had messed up on Pavelski's shot 10 seconds earlier and it somehow went in, would that make USA the best hockey country? That's crazy to me. There is also a distinction, to me at least, between best hockey nation and best national team. Tournaments don't really convey that.

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11-27-2012, 01:15 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Of course, but that doesn't mean we should discredit the WC and its meaning. It highlights depth, and as it is played every year, has merit (and of course limitations) for measuring the international hockey powers.

The olympics also has it's limitations. It's once every 4 years. Russia got spanked by Canada in 2010, but no sane person would say that the best on best between those nations isn't extremely close.

The World Juniors are overated in North America. They are not a clear measurement of anything, other than Canada has much greater depth at the Junior level. Nobody disputes this, but when you begin to move into the Senior level, it doesn't matter that much. Few players from any of these elite U-20 teams ever become Senior nationals.
Well, on a talent basis alone the Olympics represent the best means to compare talent. It would be better if it was a best of type scenario, but it is what it is. I also can't agree with your last point. In countries like the U.S. which uses the NTDP model to build international from juniors to the senior level, there is a fair amount of continuity.

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11-27-2012, 01:40 PM
  #40
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God i hope sochi 2014 will be won by swedes,so these arrogant russian and canadian posters can finally ease up a bit.

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11-27-2012, 02:07 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't think there's a problem in saying there are 4 top contenders (Russia, Canada, Sweden, USA) and that any of them could beat any other at basically any level, given the 1-game elimination formats of all the big tournaments. There really isn't any point in narrowing it down further than that IMHO (unless you are the IIHF applying a ranking to tournament pool selections for example).
The answer to the question is not fixed - its evolving. After being a dominant world power, at the least on the national team level, from 1970 to 1990, the Russian hockey system crashed and burned in the 1990's as a result of the deep economic depression that ensued from the transition to the free market. The established hockey clubs went belly-up broke, and players who wanted to get a paycheck every couple of months or so had to find work in Western Europe (many were good enough to play in the NHL or AHL). An economic renaissance led to a rebirth of hockey in Russia, starting around 2003, and since then the establishment of new pro and junior leagues has led to an explosive increase in the number and quality of Russian hockey players. Bottom line, Russia lacked the depth and quality to compete for Olympic Gold in 1998 through 2006. They didn't play well in 2010, but the Russians clearly had plenty of talent to compete for the Gold Medal. Every indication is that the Russians are on the rise, and they may end up on top in the near future, but probably aren't there quite yet.

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11-27-2012, 02:09 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Helo View Post
God i hope sochi 2014 will be won by swedes,so these arrogant russian and canadian posters can finally ease up a bit.
That won't happen and it would be just as bad when we Swedes believe we are kings instead... with not that much to back it up...

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11-27-2012, 02:18 PM
  #43
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Clearly no. Who are the best Russian defencemen? The best Russian goaltenders? All well below Sweden, Canada and USA. The forwards are not particularly better than the other top countries either, outside of the top 6.

World Championships results are clearly laughable. Russia is sending a much higher proportion of their best players than the other top countries. It would be pretty embarrassing if they didn't have the best results over a five year span. Saying that Canada is the best because of gold at the Olympics is just as laughable though, it's only a single game elimination tournament.
Take a look at the Canadian lineups at the World Championships starting in 2008 through last year. What you see are names of players that are greatly hyped by Canadian and American media (the very media that makes their living by hyping players) as being being stars, and yet their performance against the Russians has been far from inspiring. Guys like Steve Stamkos, Corey Perry, John Tavares and so on have been badly outplayed by Russian teams consisting of largely KHL players whose names you have no doubt never heard.

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11-27-2012, 02:31 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Of course, but that doesn't mean we should discredit the WC and its meaning. It highlights depth, and as it is played every year, has merit (and of course limitations) for measuring the international hockey powers.

The olympics also has it's limitations. It's once every 4 years. Russia got spanked by Canada in 2010, but no sane person would say that the best on best between those nations isn't extremely close.

The World Juniors are overated in North America. They are not a clear measurement of anything, other than Canada has much greater depth at the Junior level. Nobody disputes this, but when you begin to move into the Senior level, it doesn't matter that much. Few players from any of these elite U-20 teams ever become Senior nationals.
You're right about overrating junior hockey. The Russians are notorious late bloomers, mainly because, up until the very recent past, kids didn't start to gain competitive experience until they reached 19 or 20. Russian senior level players are World's better than their junior compatriots.

IMO, Canada got hooked on the World Juniors because for long periods, no one could compete with them, so it was an annual victory celebration that they could all share. Because half the time the WJC is played in Canada, you can't get tickets for it because everybody wants in on the party. Even though the Swedes, Americans and Russians have emerged as competition in recent years, those countries really don't have the same interest or emphasis for junior hockey that is found in Canada.

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11-27-2012, 02:33 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Helo View Post
God i hope sochi 2014 will be won by swedes,so these arrogant russian and canadian posters can finally ease up a bit.
there is a difference Canada won the one tournament that matters above all else so so we get to be cocky russia failed so they don't really get to claim anything

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11-27-2012, 02:36 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
there is a difference Canada won the one tournament that matters above all else so so we get to be cocky russia failed so they don't really get to claim anything
No there is no difference,just because Canada won gold,doesnt give you the right to act like an arrogant ******.

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11-27-2012, 02:42 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You're right about overrating junior hockey. The Russians are notorious late bloomers, mainly because, up until the very recent past, kids didn't start to gain competitive experience until they reached 19 or 20. Russian senior level players are World's better than their junior compatriots.

IMO, Canada got hooked on the World Juniors because for long periods, no one could compete with them, so it was an annual victory celebration that they could all share. Because half the time the WJC is played in Canada, you can't get tickets for it because everybody wants in on the party. Even though the Swedes, Americans and Russians have emerged as competition in recent years, those countries really don't have the same interest or emphasis for junior hockey that is found in Canada.



I disagree, look at celebration in Sweden last year after they won (which was great to see). Also Canada was hooked well before the run of 5 straight.

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11-27-2012, 02:42 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
there is a difference Canada won the one tournament that matters above all else so so we get to be cocky russia failed so they don't really get to claim anything
Remembering how emotional Canada was against the Russians, who were considered favorites to win up until that game, it will be interesting to see if the Canadians can generate the same passion and fire without a Stanley Cup Final-style crowd cheering for them in the background. The Canadians will come in as the villains, and every marginal play will get a shrill chorus of whistles from the crowd. The Russians, by contrast, were listless and emotionally flat in that game, but it will be interesting to see if they are hungry and flying around the ice this time around. At a minimum, the Russian goaltending will no doubt be much improved.

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11-27-2012, 02:47 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Alberta tough View Post
[/B]


I disagree, look at celebration in Sweden last year after they won (which was great to see). Also Canada was hooked well before the run of 5 straight.
I'm not aware that there was a big celebration last year in Sweden, but i stand by my statement that there is far less interest in the WJC in Sweden than there is in Canada. Now, if they win the next 2 or 3 in a row, that may change.

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11-27-2012, 02:51 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
the short answer is No.
In the past decade Canada has 10 Gold medals at all IIHF Tournaments, to Russia's 6... and since Russia has yet to win an Olympic gold, I say the title still belongs to Canada, but if you win in Sochi and then the debate can rage.

Great question, but I'm sure it will set off a ****storm
Are we talking in the past decade still? Or not? Because I'm pretty sure Russia has won 7 Olympic golds. 8 if you count 1992.

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