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Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
11-27-2012, 03:53 PM
  #51
Alberta tough
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I'm not aware that there was a big celebration last year in Sweden, but i stand by my statement that there is far less interest in the WJC in Sweden than there is in Canada. Now, if they win the next 2 or 3 in a row, that may change.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e66UmgRUlPo

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11-27-2012, 03:55 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Remembering how emotional Canada was against the Russians, who were considered favorites to win up until that game, it will be interesting to see if the Canadians can generate the same passion and fire without a Stanley Cup Final-style crowd cheering for them in the background. The Canadians will come in as the villains, and every marginal play will get a shrill chorus of whistles from the crowd. The Russians, by contrast, were listless and emotionally flat in that game, but it will be interesting to see if they are hungry and flying around the ice this time around. At a minimum, the Russian goaltending will no doubt be much improved.
ee and that is their big question mark imo. Can russia goalies match up to Canada ? I don't think they can not when we can throw fluery ward price etc in net. Canada aside though russia can't match miller thomas howard or lundquivst or kipper or backstrom. Going into 2014 russia doesn't have the goalies other teams do. I could easily seem not getting a medal again

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11-27-2012, 04:03 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Helo View Post
No there is no difference,just because Canada won gold,doesnt give you the right to act like an arrogant ******.
there is a song lyric that fits perfect here

"They say i'm cocky and I say what? it ain't bragging if you back it up."

had to edit the lyric slightly but the point is Canada gets to talk because they back it up.

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11-27-2012, 04:06 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Alberta tough View Post
That is an impressive celebration, but it isn't by itself a measure of the day-to-day level of interest. I would like to hear from some of our Swedish posters to get their opinion on the level of interest in their country in comparison to what they see in Canada.

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11-27-2012, 04:08 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
ee and that is their big question mark imo. Can russia goalies match up to Canada ? I don't think they can not when we can throw fluery ward price etc in net. Canada aside though russia can't match miller thomas howard or lundquivst or kipper or backstrom. Going into 2014 russia doesn't have the goalies other teams do. I could easily seem not getting a medal again
None of the goalies that you list are unbeatable. I don't think Russia is in a hole when it comes to goaltending.

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11-27-2012, 04:29 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
Well, on a talent basis alone the Olympics represent the best means to compare talent. It would be better if it was a best of type scenario, but it is what it is. I also can't agree with your last point. In countries like the U.S. which uses the NTDP model to build international from juniors to the senior level, there is a fair amount of continuity.
Of course, but given it happens once every four years, and has yet to be won twice by any nation since it became the best on best, we can hardly use it as any definitive measurement.

The majority of NTDP products will never come close to reaching the Senior team. It has a large concentration of top talent per age group for the US, but the majority will still not amount to much. Plus, we have many good Americans in the CHL. No other high end country employs a similar model.

The World Juniors over a sample size of 5 years (anymore and developmental changes can be overlooked i.e Finland/Sweden/Czechs) can be used to judge how well nations are developing youth talent. It tells us no more than that. Finland were still competitive despite years of mediocrity at the Junior level.

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11-27-2012, 04:30 PM
  #57
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lol come on, Russia had trouble beating CHLs all three teams. Imagine if you grabbed players from those teams and put them as one! Russia wouldn't have a chance.... Canada was and is and will always be the best in hockey. and rememeber Canada has 35mill people and half immigrants from countries that don't even play hockey and Russia has 143.000.000mill...And we still produce the best all around players in hockey.. Tells you a lot!
1)Canada
2)Russia
2)USA
3)Sweden

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11-27-2012, 04:33 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
ee and that is their big question mark imo. Can russia goalies match up to Canada ? I don't think they can not when we can throw fluery ward price etc in net. Canada aside though russia can't match miller thomas howard or lundquivst or kipper or backstrom. Going into 2014 russia doesn't have the goalies other teams do. I could easily seem not getting a medal again
It's actually funny to see that post, considering that the Russian coach just praised the rich selection of Russian goalies.

You know of Varlamov and Bryzgalov, but what do you know about Barulin, Koshechkin, Yeremenko, Ezhov? my guess is you know nothing about them, and therefore your "analysis" is about as accurate as that of 1972 Canadian scouts who thought that Tretiak was some average amateur kid. Not to mention coming down the pipe we have the likes of Vasilevski, Makarov and Ustinskiy, while Canada has to opt out for Visentin and Reimer??

Or do you still think that Nabokov and Khabibulin are our primary goalies?? And how about that guy Rinne, who is struggling in KHL..

And Fleury Ward and Price are Good goalies. But they are not Hasek or Brodeur calibre, so you can relax about any kind of supremacy you're feeling. It's unlikely that they'll work some miracle against Malkin and co.


Last edited by Fulcrum: 11-27-2012 at 04:42 PM.
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11-27-2012, 04:37 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Leafs03 View Post
lol come on, Russia had trouble beating CHLs all three teams. Imagine if you grabbed players from those teams and put them as one! Russia wouldn't have a chance.... Canada was and is and will always be the best in hockey. and rememeber Canada has 35mill people and half immigrants from countries that don't even play hockey and Russia has 143.000.000mill...And we still produce the best all around players in hockey.. Tells you a lot!
1)Canada
2)Russia
2)USA
3)Sweden
Lol, Wouldn't have a chance huh? No need to imagine, the series was tied 2-2 and it took Canada in OT to win, at home. This all happened in not too distant August 2012.

there's something about leaf fans that I'm seeing in common here


Last edited by Fulcrum: 11-27-2012 at 04:43 PM.
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11-27-2012, 04:39 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You're right about overrating junior hockey. The Russians are notorious late bloomers, mainly because, up until the very recent past, kids didn't start to gain competitive experience until they reached 19 or 20. Russian senior level players are World's better than their junior compatriots.

IMO, Canada got hooked on the World Juniors because for long periods, no one could compete with them, so it was an annual victory celebration that they could all share. Because half the time the WJC is played in Canada, you can't get tickets for it because everybody wants in on the party. Even though the Swedes, Americans and Russians have emerged as competition in recent years, those countries really don't have the same interest or emphasis for junior hockey that is found in Canada.
I think Russia sees it's premier talents at a disadvantage at 16/17/18 because they don't have same intelligent compete than Canada/US has. Of course they care, but they aren't often as astute tactically and can be overmatched physically at times (Though it varies from year to year). The main issue with Russian Junior hockey from the little i get to see is the ability of the defenders. They are frankly awful relative to the other Big 3.

Nations have different attitudes on youth development for sure, although fortunately most now realise how imperative it is. It is odd how Junior hockey has cultivated such a cult in North America. Junior sports are almost non existance in Europe in terms of popular ; youth development is purely for future senior players and not money or entertainment.

The other issue, which is often overlooked, is European hockey is quite different to North American hockey. There are many excellent players in European hockey who would murder established NA players on European ice. But because everything is so NHL orientated if you aren't in the NHL, you aren't anybody. You're not good enough. Well, i bet if many NA players came to Europe, many would be unsuccessful.

Canada is the best hockey nation in terms of number of quality players and depth. However it gets tiresome when you see the same stated belief that they and the NHL are somehow the center of the hockey world and anybody who isn't in it, cannot be good. I hope this lockout has made atleast a few people appreciate European hockey more.

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11-27-2012, 04:43 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Of course, but given it happens once every four years, and has yet to be won twice by any nation since it became the best on best, we can hardly use it as any definitive measurement.

The majority of NTDP products will never come close to reaching the Senior team. It has a large concentration of top talent per age group for the US, but the majority will still not amount to much. Plus, we have many good Americans in the CHL. No other high end country employs a similar model.

The World Juniors over a sample size of 5 years (anymore and developmental changes can be overlooked i.e Finland/Sweden/Czechs) can be used to judge how well nations are developing youth talent. It tells us no more than that. Finland were still competitive despite years of mediocrity at the Junior level.
I must be missing something here? Canada has won twice.

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11-27-2012, 04:46 PM
  #62
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Russia has won 1 (2011) of the past 9 World Juniors and ZERO best on best tournaments in 30 years.

Best-On-Best Winners since '76 Canada Cup

1976 - Canada
1981 - Soviet Union
1984 - Canada
1987 - Canada
1991 - Canada
1996 - USA
1998 - Czech Rep
2002 - Canada
2004 - Canada
2006 - Sweden
2010 - Canada

Are Russia perhaps lucky to even be considered in this echelon? They do nothing when all the big boys play. If not for the World Championships they would have very little to fall back on.

Keep in mind that not only did Canada THUMP Russia in their last best on best matchup in 2010, but Canada has added several elite level talents (Stamkos, Giroux, Tavares etc.,) while Russia's elite level talent largely remains the same from the team that got worked in 2010. Canada was far superior in 2010 and will be adding ridiculous talent for 2014 while Russia will mostly stay the same. Judge that how you will.

Bottom line, they have to get on the ice and play. Anything can happen in one-off games with such high talent level. Not to mention the Swedes and Americans. Anyone can beat anyone. But when simply talking on a message board and listing talent, Canada is best by a very wide margin.

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11-27-2012, 05:00 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by SH15 View Post
Russia has won 1 (2011) of the past 9 World Juniors and ZERO best on best tournaments in 30 years.

Best-On-Best Winners since '76 Canada Cup

1976 - Canada
1981 - Soviet Union
1984 - Canada
1987 - Canada
1991 - Canada
1996 - USA
1998 - Czech Rep
2002 - Canada
2004 - Canada
2006 - Sweden
2010 - Canada

Are Russia perhaps lucky to even be considered in this echelon? They do nothing when all the big boys play. If not for the World Championships they would have very little to fall back on.

Keep in mind that not only did Canada THUMP Russia in their last best on best matchup in 2010, but Canada has added several elite level talents (Stamkos, Giroux, Tavares etc.,) while Russia's elite level talent largely remains the same from the team that got worked in 2010. Canada was far superior in 2010 and will be adding ridiculous talent for 2014 while Russia will mostly stay the same. Judge that how you will.

Bottom line, they have to get on the ice and play. Anything can happen in one-off games with such high talent level. Not to mention the Swedes and Americans. Anyone can beat anyone. But when simply talking on a message board and listing talent, Canada is best by a very wide margin.

Your stats are very selective. Your argument is a definition of how stats can be used to present a specific (biased) point of view. Not to mention that I do not even consider the NHL World Championships to be proper tournaments. Why just 9 years of world Juniors? Why not 15 or 30? Why 30 Years for "best on best"? Why just best on best? Is that all there is to hockey?

As you said "Anything can happen in one-off games with such high talent level. Not to mention the Swedes and Americans. Anyone can beat anyone." Thus you're devaluing your own statement of 'best on best' tournaments.

The only thing that is by a wide margin, is the perceived quality of Canadian hockey players and their true ability compared to other nations.

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11-27-2012, 05:00 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Alberta tough View Post
I must be missing something here? Canada has won twice.
My mistake, not sure why i forgot that.

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11-27-2012, 05:15 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
It's actually funny to see that post, considering that the Russian coach just praised the rich selection of Russian goalies.

You know of Varlamov and Bryzgalov, but what do you know about Barulin, Koshechkin, Yeremenko, Ezhov? my guess is you know nothing about them, and therefore your "analysis" is about as accurate as that of 1972 Canadian scouts who thought that Tretiak was some average amateur kid. Not to mention coming down the pipe we have the likes of Vasilevski, Makarov and Ustinskiy, while Canada has to opt out for Visentin and Reimer??

Or do you still think that Nabokov and Khabibulin are our primary goalies?? And how about that guy Rinne, who is struggling in KHL..

And Fleury Ward and Price are Good goalies. But they are not Hasek or Brodeur calibre, so you can relax about any kind of supremacy you're feeling. It's unlikely that they'll work some miracle against Malkin and co.
no they aren't hasek or marty or roy or eddie or hell even cujo in his prime. Bur the fact remains they are better then anything russia has in net and that is a fact.

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11-27-2012, 05:29 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Leafs03 View Post
lol come on, Russia had trouble beating CHLs all three teams. Imagine if you grabbed players from those teams and put them as one! Russia wouldn't have a chance.... Canada was and is and will always be the best in hockey. and rememeber Canada has 35mill people and half immigrants from countries that don't even play hockey and Russia has 143.000.000mill...And we still produce the best all around players in hockey.. Tells you a lot!
1)Canada
2)Russia
2)USA
3)Sweden
Maybe you didn't notice, but in the SSS, Russia had different teams in every game as well. Also, this SSS was more of a best on best than any other, because a number of the CHL players would have been in the NHL if there wasn't a lockout (e.g., Huberdeau, Oulette, Scheifele, Strome, Reilly, Hamilton, etc.). Russia had other players who will play in Ufa who didn't come to the SSS, because they played in the 4-Nation in Finland. Russia still found a way to win the tournament. This will be a best on best WJC (the NHL is just two weeks away from canceling the season), so we'll see how Canada matches up against the same Swedish team that won the Gold last year, and a very good Russian team playing at home.

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11-27-2012, 05:35 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by SH15 View Post
Russia has won 1 (2011) of the past 9 World Juniors and ZERO best on best tournaments in 30 years.

Best-On-Best Winners since '76 Canada Cup

1976 - Canada
1981 - Soviet Union
1984 - Canada
1987 - Canada
1991 - Canada
1996 - USA
1998 - Czech Rep
2002 - Canada
2004 - Canada
2006 - Sweden
2010 - Canada

Are Russia perhaps lucky to even be considered in this echelon? They do nothing when all the big boys play. If not for the World Championships they would have very little to fall back on.

Keep in mind that not only did Canada THUMP Russia in their last best on best matchup in 2010, but Canada has added several elite level talents (Stamkos, Giroux, Tavares etc.,) while Russia's elite level talent largely remains the same from the team that got worked in 2010. Canada was far superior in 2010 and will be adding ridiculous talent for 2014 while Russia will mostly stay the same. Judge that how you will.

Bottom line, they have to get on the ice and play. Anything can happen in one-off games with such high talent level. Not to mention the Swedes and Americans. Anyone can beat anyone. But when simply talking on a message board and listing talent, Canada is best by a very wide margin.
Canada Cups do not count as best on best tournaments because they were Canadian owned and operated invitational tournaments that were not sanctioned by IIHF and, starting in 1984, only Canadian and American referees were permitted to work medal round games. You can't count it as best on best if it is designed for one nation to win.
Also, just for your information, the 1976 Canada Cup could not be a best on best because the Soviets decided to leave their best players (Kharlamov, Yakushev, Petrov, Mikhailov, etc.)


Last edited by Yakushev72: 11-27-2012 at 05:46 PM. Reason: information omitted
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11-27-2012, 05:42 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
I think Russia sees it's premier talents at a disadvantage at 16/17/18 because they don't have same intelligent compete than Canada/US has. Of course they care, but they aren't often as astute tactically and can be overmatched physically at times (Though it varies from year to year). The main issue with Russian Junior hockey from the little i get to see is the ability of the defenders. They are frankly awful relative to the other Big 3.

Nations have different attitudes on youth development for sure, although fortunately most now realise how imperative it is. It is odd how Junior hockey has cultivated such a cult in North America. Junior sports are almost non existance in Europe in terms of popular ; youth development is purely for future senior players and not money or entertainment.

The other issue, which is often overlooked, is European hockey is quite different to North American hockey. There are many excellent players in European hockey who would murder established NA players on European ice. But because everything is so NHL orientated if you aren't in the NHL, you aren't anybody. You're not good enough. Well, i bet if many NA players came to Europe, many would be unsuccessful.

Canada is the best hockey nation in terms of number of quality players and depth. However it gets tiresome when you see the same stated belief that they and the NHL are somehow the center of the hockey world and anybody who isn't in it, cannot be good. I hope this lockout has made atleast a few people appreciate European hockey more.
I agree with much of your assessment of Russian youth hockey, although the defense improved substantially in the "Super Series" this past August and the Subway Super Series earlier this month. Much of the reason why Russian juniors have not competed well, IMO, is that they lacked the opportunity to gain any form of competitive experience. With the creation of the MHL, all that has changed, although it will take a few years to get the MHL up to full speed. The biggest benefit of the MHL, I believe, will be to exponentially expand the development of talent. We'll see how well it works out.

In regard to the NHL, what keeps it alive is the constant infusion of talent from Europe. Nearly all individual NHL teams would get blown off the ice by national teams from Europe. As a whole, NHL teams have just a few very good players, while the full roster is populated by players who could be described as average to mediocre. That fact tends to create false perceptions about how good individual players actually are, especially when paid public relations specialists go vastly overboard in hyping their talents (e.g., Claude Giroux). It is interesting to note that, according to the Wikipedia, Canadians constitute only 53% of the NHL. That percentage will no doubt drop below half in the near future. Those demographics will no doubt be reflected in a shift in who stands on the top podium at international tournaments, be they best on best or other.


Last edited by Yakushev72: 11-27-2012 at 05:59 PM. Reason: information omitted
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11-27-2012, 05:56 PM
  #69
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Best hockey nations...

1) Canada
2) Russia
3) Sweden
4) U.S

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11-27-2012, 05:59 PM
  #70
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Who do you guys think currently holds the 7th spot? (Next to Russia, Czech Republic, Sweden, USA, Canada, and Finland)
Slovakia is still big 7

Barely lose the Olympic semi, and runner up at last WC

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11-27-2012, 06:03 PM
  #71
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Best hockey nations...

1) Canada
2) Russia
3) Sweden
4) U.S
USA and russia should be switched americans are rock solid

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11-27-2012, 06:08 PM
  #72
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USA and russia should be switched americans are rock solid
The US hasn't been winning too many tournaments lately.

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11-27-2012, 06:10 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
no they aren't hasek or marty or roy or eddie or hell even cujo in his prime. Bur the fact remains they are better then anything russia has in net and that is a fact.
no it's an argument (and a poor one, since you don't even try to prove it), you should look up what the word fact means.

Anyway, feels like debating with a 13 year old- time to use the good old ignore button to keep this a bit more civil and meaningful

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11-27-2012, 06:12 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Take a look at the Canadian lineups at the World Championships starting in 2008 through last year. What you see are names of players that are greatly hyped by Canadian and American media (the very media that makes their living by hyping players) as being being stars, and yet their performance against the Russians has been far from inspiring. Guys like Steve Stamkos, Corey Perry, John Tavares and so on have been badly outplayed by Russian teams consisting of largely KHL players whose names you have no doubt never heard.
Pretty misleading information here, and not just when you say that Russia has been badly outplaying Canada at this tournament. Canada generally sends a handful of the best players each year, at best. When Stamkos played he was still a teenager, and fresh after being left off the Olympic team. Tavares wasn't really an elite player who would make the actual team Canada until the last tournament. Perry I will give you, he has actually shown up for Canada for the most part. Unfortunately, he is the exception rather than the rule. The only other player from this last year who would definitely have made Canada is Keith. When you get a Russian team sending out most of their optimal roster against a Canadian team sending maybe three of the players from their optimal roster, you'll have to forgive us for taking the results with a grain of salt.

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11-27-2012, 06:18 PM
  #75
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The US hasn't been winning too many tournaments lately.
but they do have silver medals in 2 of the last 3 olympics and they got a TON of young talent coming

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