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Luongo thread continued...

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Old
11-27-2012, 11:07 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
The problem is, Bertuzzi was a whole other magnitude from Lupul.

Bertuzzi at that point probably had more value than Phil Kessel does now being that he was recently a 1st team all-NHL (as in voted one of the top 2 wingers in the league) and played a power game that is always sought after highly.

It would be more like:
-Kessel, Gunnarson, and Reimer for Luongo, Tanev, and 6th...

Also, for context, remember that Luongo was a soon to be UFA when he was traded out of Florida and he hadn't negotiated a long-term deal to stay when he was dealt. Nonis stated as much.



To clearify here, are you implying that playing in the all-star game is more important than actually being nominated for the Veizna (which he was in 2011)? That's what the three years implies.


i was going to post that that's crazy ...but then i went and looked up Bert's stats at that time ...he was coming off 4 years of being better than a PPG player, including a 97-pt season 2 years prior.

Now he was 30 and had that Moore incident on his back ...but he was still considered the preeminent powerforward in the league, and even then, everyone thought the Canucks won that deal hands down

so, not so outrageous to think of Kessel as an analog...
however Kessel is 5 years younger than Bert was and Luo is older ...that makes a difference too

but frankly, what makes this seem outrageous --
-Kessel, Gunnarson, and Reimer for Luongo, Tanev, and 6th
is the what the assets mean to their teams more than objective value (ie general sentiment is Kessel indespensible vs Luongo expendable)

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11-27-2012, 11:36 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
What I find odd with Burke and goaltending, is he always seems to look for a "deal." Sort of in a similar venue to a used car salesman, albeit he is the stool pigeon that ends up with a lemon. For one reason or another, he throws the dice on nobodies and winds up burnt on nearly ever occasion, let has never learned his lesson. You have to love the sheer irony of the Rask trade.

Far as I'm concerned. If we can acquire Lupul in a deal, then by all means, let's do it however, I doubt Burke has any intention of doing so.
I don't think Lupul would be the problem, it's the other multiple pieces that would be wanted along with him that would be the problem.

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11-27-2012, 12:24 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So the talk of the new CBA penalizing circumvented deals by removing the "out loopholes" shouldn't worry anyone? Thats ridiculous.


Red herring. Out clauses have far more affect on player contracting rights, which make it much more an issue of contention between the parties. Essentially, it muddies the relationship between NTCs and NMCs.



The superfluous years on BDCs tacked on to franchises seems far more likely an occurrence than what you are outlining.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Hey bleach. I think i have figured out were we differ. You firmly believe that Burke is stalling and will eventually pay Gillis' price. I on the other hand believe that if Gillis holds firm, a deal between these two does not get done. It isn't about wasting time. Burke has a price in his head and whether you and i agree on it, he isn't going to move much. I think your scouts are there because Burke has made an offer(s) and let Van know what players he would deal.


I do not think Burke will eventually pay Gillis's price. His price was/is too high to be matched IMO. However, I do think Burke made a mistake by not getting close enough in a timely manner. He employed the wrong strategy. Now, other factors will be at play which could negatively impact talks. Factors Burke had complete control over prior to the lockout.



There is an end game to the slow roast approach and Burke missed the finish.



Scouts at the game because no deal is in place, which was my point.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
It seems as though you are somewhat vested in a position that you have convinced yourself is true. If Gardiner is indeed the sticking point, as a Leafs fan, I'll be satisfied looking for our Goaltender solution elsewhere. I don't think we are even in the same time zone here on what you feel would need to happen for Vancouver to do a deal.


I'm saying Gardiner _was_ the sticking point. That the lack of urgency between parties allowed Gillis to float Gardiner and for Burke to sit back and balk at the notion. That's why we're here now with Luongo still in VAN. However, should the new CBA punish original teams with post-retirement cap-hit, you best believe Gardiner gets put back on the table as the heart of the deal. At that point, Gillis has no reason not to insist on him.



Burke had a chance to do the deal by paying a large sum, including Gardiner. This much we know from reports. If Burke had offered enough value _sans_ Gardiner, I have to think parties put their egos aside and close the deal. However, I don't believe Burke did even that based on his porous history of evaluating goalies. Far more reasonable to think he didn't offer value at all, Gardiner or no Gardiner, and just tried to wait out Gillis --> Bad move.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Is it Burke who waited, or Gillis who waited?

Would it have been prudent for Gillis to accept Lupul, Bozak, Lombardi and Steckel before the lockout? You lose the season, and traded for a bunch of UFA's how does it look?


It's Burke who waited and didn't move IMO. The reasons for thinking this are as follows:


1) Earlier reports from Dreger, who is known around these parts as the mouthpiece for Nonis, was speaking of Komisarek+ as the basis for a deal. This indicates a low market perception on their end.


2) Early rumours had Burke offering Schenn alone, or Komisarek+Kulemin+1st (2013). Both were rejected. Could it be because there is a significant gap between this and Gardiner + Frattin + 5th overall + Bozak?


3) Burke reportedly increased his offer a 2nd time only when it was learned that EDM became a player, as StringerBell mentioned. This indicates a GM that is _passive_ in his intent.


4) Lastly, Burke's history is an indictment on his ability to pursue goaltenders in general. No, I think I'm pretty confident in saying that it's Burke and not Gillis that has tried to wait this out. Let's see if Burke was right for doing it.

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11-27-2012, 01:29 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Red herring. Out clauses have far more affect on player contracting rights, which make it much more an issue of contention between the parties. Essentially, it muddies the relationship between NTCs and NMCs.



The superfluous years on BDCs tacked on to franchises seems far more likely an occurrence than what you are outlining.







I do not think Burke will eventually pay Gillis's price. His price was/is too high to be matched IMO. However, I do think Burke made a mistake by not getting close enough in a timely manner. He employed the wrong strategy. Now, other factors will be at play which could negatively impact talks. Factors Burke had complete control over prior to the lockout.



There is an end game to the slow roast approach and Burke missed the finish.



Scouts at the game because no deal is in place, which was my point.







I'm saying Gardiner _was_ the sticking point. That the lack of urgency between parties allowed Gillis to float Gardiner and for Burke to sit back and balk at the notion. That's why we're here now with Luongo still in VAN. However, should the new CBA punish original teams with post-retirement cap-hit, you best believe Gardiner gets put back on the table as the heart of the deal. At that point, Gillis has no reason not to insist on him.



Burke had a chance to do the deal by paying a large sum, including Gardiner. This much we know from reports. If Burke had offered enough value _sans_ Gardiner, I have to think parties put their egos aside and close the deal. However, I don't believe Burke did even that based on his porous history of evaluating goalies. Far more reasonable to think he didn't offer value at all, Gardiner or no Gardiner, and just tried to wait out Gillis --> Bad move.







It's Burke who waited and didn't move IMO. The reasons for thinking this are as follows:


1) Earlier reports from Dreger, who is known around these parts as the mouthpiece for Nonis, was speaking of Komisarek+ as the basis for a deal. This indicates a low market perception on their end.


2) Early rumours had Burke offering Schenn alone, or Komisarek+Kulemin+1st (2013). Both were rejected. Could it be because there is a significant gap between this and Gardiner + Frattin + 5th overall + Bozak?


3) Burke reportedly increased his offer a 2nd time only when it was learned that EDM became a player, as StringerBell mentioned. This indicates a GM that is _passive_ in his intent.


4) Lastly, Burke's history is an indictment on his ability to pursue goaltenders in general. No, I think I'm pretty confident in saying that it's Burke and not Gillis that has tried to wait this out. Let's see if Burke was right for doing it.
I think this point right here is the most telling. It does not matter what fans on either side think, or want. Burke upping his offer in reaction to other teams tells me, it is more likely he moves than Gillis. IMO.

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11-27-2012, 01:49 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
I think this point right here is the most telling. It does not matter what fans on either side think, or want. Burke upping his offer in reaction to other teams tells me, it is more likely he moves than Gillis. IMO.
I guess it truely depends on whether Gillis wants to move him or not. If Gillis doesn't mind running Luongo/Schnieder than i think he stays in VAN....because nobody is going to give him anything close to his original demand. Of course Burke went up, his offer wasn't the best on the table when EDM out did it. It is the best again, so why outbid yourself.

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11-27-2012, 02:00 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I guess it truely depends on whether Gillis wants to move him or not. If Gillis doesn't mind running Luongo/Schnieder than i think he stays in VAN....because nobody is going to give him anything close to his original demand. Of course Burke went up, his offer wasn't the best on the table when EDM out did it. It is the best again, so why outbid yourself.


Because you're still not going to get the asset otherwise. This is the idiocy of this tact. Even in a very limited market, you still have to meet the seller within a reasonable amount. The inherent cost is the games played without Luongo in a TO jersey.



Burke thinks that Gillis will acquiesce to his "best" offer (which just so happened to change when EDM jumped in, meaning it wasn't his best, which makes his hardline suspect overall), and that just does not seem like reality given they are both adversarial to each other, Gillis will try to land Lu in FLA first and foremost _and_ Gillis can conceivably wait this out until the deadline, at which point every team's situation will change, thereby changing the market.



Brilliant negotiating by Burke here.

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11-27-2012, 02:09 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
I think this point right here is the most telling. It does not matter what fans on either side think, or want. Burke upping his offer in reaction to other teams tells me, it is more likely he moves than Gillis. IMO.


What it tells us is that Burke has _already_ moved. Meaning, this "he will hold at his price" stuff is pure drivel. He has the greatest need. He has reacted based the market changes. And he is still subject to further changes in the market as we progress. i.e. The original team bearing the cap burden in the would be ratified CBA.

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11-27-2012, 02:12 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Because you're still not going to get the asset otherwise. This is the idiocy of this tact. Even in a very limited market, you still have to meet the seller within a reasonable amount. The inherent cost is the games played without Luongo in a TO jersey.



Burke thinks that Gillis will acquiesce to his "best" offer (which just so happened to change when EDM jumped in, meaning it wasn't his best, which makes his hardline suspect overall), and that just does not seem like reality given they are both adversarial to each other, Gillis will try to land Lu in FLA first and foremost _and_ Gillis can conceivably wait this out until the deadline, at which point every team's situation will change, thereby changing the market.



Brilliant negotiating by Burke here.
At this point, please tell him to do so, that way we can all move on.

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11-27-2012, 02:12 PM
  #184
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How can Burke up an offer that was never initially made?

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11-27-2012, 02:17 PM
  #185
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How can Burke up an offer that was never initially made?
From Schenn straight up -> Kulemin, Komisarek, and a 1st.

Or so they say...

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11-27-2012, 02:22 PM
  #186
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I don't understand how people can say that Bertuzzi was a more valuable palyer when he got dealt for Luongo than Kessel is now.

The statements about Bertuzzi being the preeminent power forward of the game were true - in 2003, not when he got dealt in 2006. Not only was he regressing from his 97 point season, which was more an aberration of playing with Naslund during his 104 point season), but he had the Moore incident hanging over his head. He missed one entire season, and played just slightly above average in the year he came back. He was a shell of his former self, and he had lawsuits hanging over his head.

His value was well on its way down at the time of that trade, and nowhere near what Kessel's is at this point in time.

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11-27-2012, 02:24 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Burke thinks that Gillis will acquiesce to his "best" offer (which just so happened to change when EDM jumped in, meaning it wasn't his best, which makes his hardline suspect overall), and that just does not seem like reality given they are both adversarial to each other, Gillis will try to land Lu in FLA first and foremost _and_ Gillis can conceivably wait this out until the deadline, at which point every team's situation will change, thereby changing the market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
What it tells us is that Burke has _already_ moved. Meaning, this "he will hold at his price" stuff is pure drivel.
When did he come out and say an offer was his "best price", or that "he will hold at his price"? Wouldn't that be tampering?

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11-27-2012, 02:30 PM
  #188
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I don't understand how people can say that Bertuzzi was a more valuable palyer when he got dealt for Luongo than Kessel is now.

The statements about Bertuzzi being the preeminent power forward of the game were true - in 2003, not when he got dealt in 2006. Not only was he regressing from his 97 point season, which was more an aberration of playing with Naslund during his 104 point season), but he had the Moore incident hanging over his head. He missed one entire season, and played just slightly above average in the year he came back. He was a shell of his former self, and he had lawsuits hanging over his head.

His value was well on its way down at the time of that trade, and nowhere near what Kessel's is at this point in time.
This is wrong on a few fronts, first name a PF at the time that was considered better? There were questions about how the Moore incident may affect him going forward, but he was still pretty much a PPG player. He did not miss a season, he missed 22 games, due to a suspension, this includes the playoffs.

He went from 60 pts in 69 games, lockout year, to 71 points in 82 games. Everyone missed a year.

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11-27-2012, 02:54 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
This is wrong on a few fronts, first name a PF at the time that was considered better? There were questions about how the Moore incident may affect him going forward, but he was still pretty much a PPG player. He did not miss a season, he missed 22 games, due to a suspension, this includes the playoffs.

He went from 60 pts in 69 games, lockout year, to 71 points in 82 games. Everyone missed a year.
Bertuzzi's value was nowhere near what Kessel's is now.

The Moore incident most certainly affected his value. He was 31.

Bertuzzi was soon dealt by Florida for Mattias and a conditional pick. Yes, his value was decreased due to a back injury. You don't go from top tier value to Matthias over one disc injury though.

Kessel on the other hand is just entering his prime. He's worth a lot more.

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11-27-2012, 02:56 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I guess it truely depends on whether Gillis wants to move him or not. If Gillis doesn't mind running Luongo/Schnieder than i think he stays in VAN....because nobody is going to give him anything close to his original demand. Of course Burke went up, his offer wasn't the best on the table when EDM out did it. It is the best again, so why outbid yourself.
Gillis has pretty much come out & said he is ok with that already.

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11-27-2012, 03:00 PM
  #191
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Gillis has pretty much come out & said he is ok with that already.
Yup, and Burke said he doesn't like circumvented contracts....and yet he's made offers on Luongo. Also said he wouldn't trade Schenn......not sure what else Gillis is going to say.

Edit: I'm not saying there will be any issues, Gillis may very well be happy with keeping Luongo. That is why i think there is no deal to be made.

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11-27-2012, 03:02 PM
  #192
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I still think he ends up in Toronto. I can't see Vancouver really starting the season with him whenever this thing ends. I'm not sure about Florida. I thought for the longest time he was going to the Panthers.

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11-27-2012, 03:09 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Yup, and Burke said he doesn't like circumvented contracts....and yet he's made offers on Luongo. Also said he wouldn't trade Schenn......not sure what else Gillis is going to say.

Edit: I'm not saying there will be any issues, Gillis may very well be happy with keeping Luongo. That is why i think there is no deal to be made.
Burke lying in the Media... this isn't new.

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11-27-2012, 03:11 PM
  #194
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Burke lying in the Media... this isn't new.
Any GM lying in the media isn't new.

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11-27-2012, 03:13 PM
  #195
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Gillis has pretty much come out & said he is ok with that already.
"pretty much"? He has explicitely stated he might keep both. However, he's also in negotiations. Stating that Luongo is definitely going to be moved would severely weaken his bargaining power.

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11-27-2012, 03:18 PM
  #196
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How can Burke up an offer that was never initially made?
That's what I'd like to know. Could anyone shed some light on what has transpired for those of us who began avoiding this thread altogether? How is it possible that Gillis and Burke are exchanging offers with one another when there isn't even a CBA in place?

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11-27-2012, 03:27 PM
  #197
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That's what I'd like to know. Could anyone shed some light on what has transpired for those of us who began avoiding this thread altogether? How is it possible that Gillis and Burke are exchanging offers with one another when there isn't even a CBA in place?
Same crap over and over again since September 15th.

I can't wait for the season to start.

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11-27-2012, 03:33 PM
  #198
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When did he come out and say an offer was his "best price", or that "he will hold at his price"? Wouldn't that be tampering?


Some fans are inferring that this Burke's stance. When in fact the reports suggest he has adjusted it for EDM, meaning he has already moved. Basically, Burke can't entrench the way some are saying he will.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Yup, and Burke said he doesn't like circumvented contracts....and yet he's made offers on Luongo. Also said he wouldn't trade Schenn......not sure what else Gillis is going to say.

Edit: I'm not saying there will be any issues, Gillis may very well be happy with keeping Luongo. That is why i think there is no deal to be made.


I don't put Gillis's media speak in the same zone as Burke. One clearly lies on a consistent basis (you have pointed out two instances already), while the other is more moderate.

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11-27-2012, 03:35 PM
  #199
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Some fans are inferring that this Burke's stance. When in fact the reports suggest he has adjusted it for EDM, meaning he has already moved. Basically, Burke can't entrench the way some are saying he will.







I don't put Gillis's media speak in the same zone as Burke. One clearly lies on a consistent basis (you have pointed out two instances already), while the other is more moderate.
Wow...your Burke hatred is getting intense. I openly admitted he lies to the media....all GM's do.

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11-27-2012, 03:49 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Wow...your Burke hatred is getting intense. I openly admitted he lies to the media....all GM's do.


Can you tell me where Gillis has been caught in an outright lie? .... Burke has done on it multiple occasions to suite his purpose. You cannot colour these two with the same brush by saying all GMs do.



My "hatred" is of Burke's method, not Burke himself. Perhaps because I wasn't so acutely aware of his patterns when managing my team, only to realize it afterwards. I recognize that he's headed down the same path. He has again here a golden chance to cement his legacy and is flushing it down the gutter.



It's also about Luongo. I selfishly want him on the biggest stage so he thrives for the rest of his career in the spotlight. That's TO. Except that Burke's old ideologies are getting in the way. It's like someone needs to save him from himself. If Luongo goes anywhere else, that has to be seen as an indictment on Burke for not stepping up to get this major asset, when it was available.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-27-2012 at 04:02 PM.
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