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Who is the Better PKer? Brian Boyle or Ryan Callahan?

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Old
11-27-2012, 05:06 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I have no doubt in my mind that Boyle can pot 15+ goals playing consistent even strength minutes with a couple of guys who aren't complete offensive black holes. What Boyle lacks severely is vision and the ability to distribute the puck - I dont think he'll ever get much better at that. Nonetheless, its more than atoned for with outstanding penalty kill and shutdown play. Hes a very very good 3rd line center for the way this team is currently constructed.

In a lot of ways, 3rd line center is one of the most interesting roles in hockey. Expectations can vary wildly from team to team and coach to coach. The people who hate Boyle seem to think we absolutely need a 3rd line center capable of 50+ points per season -- try finding that on any roster in the entire league. While the 3C can be what you make of it, the expectations for it are often absurd.
Well said. I think with the additions over the summer, Boyle should spend most of the year (assuming there is a season) playing with some combination of Pyatt, Hagelin and Kreider. That's a pretty big upgrade over Fedotenko and Prust. He should be able to notch 35ish points this year.

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11-27-2012, 07:19 PM
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I really fail to see how Callahan is the better PKer. I think he's the better OFFENSIVE PKer, but I'd take Boyle in the defensive zone over Callahan. Boyle is a truly elite PKer.

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11-27-2012, 07:20 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I have no doubt in my mind that Boyle can pot 15+ goals playing consistent even strength minutes with a couple of guys who aren't complete offensive black holes. What Boyle lacks severely is vision and the ability to distribute the puck - I dont think he'll ever get much better at that. Nonetheless, its more than atoned for with outstanding penalty kill and shutdown play. Hes a very very good 3rd line center for the way this team is currently constructed.

In a lot of ways, 3rd line center is one of the most interesting roles in hockey. Expectations can vary wildly from team to team and coach to coach. The people who hate Boyle seem to think we absolutely need a 3rd line center capable of 50+ points per season -- try finding that on any roster in the entire league. While the 3C can be what you make of it, the expectations for it are often absurd.
Frankly, as we bring up more kids, Boyle will get some more offensively talented guys around him. If we keep him after his contract is up (and I sincerely hope we do), I'd expect his point totals to rise a bit, even.

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11-28-2012, 10:47 AM
  #54
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Cally is better at ALL THINGS Hockey > Brian Boyle

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11-28-2012, 10:50 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Well said. I think with the additions over the summer, Boyle should spend most of the year (assuming there is a season) playing with some combination of Pyatt, Hagelin and Kreider. That's a pretty big upgrade over Fedotenko and Prust. He should be able to notch 35ish points this year.

I don't disagree with you, chemistry is found in odd places sometimes, but I shutter at Boyle and Hags on the same line. The fastest guy on the team and the slowest guy on the team seems counter intuitive

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11-28-2012, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by I Am Chariot View Post
I don't disagree with you, chemistry is found in odd places sometimes, but I shutter at Boyle and Hags on the same line. The fastest guy on the team and the slowest guy on the team seems counter intuitive
Mike Rupp says hello. So does Brad Richards and Derek Stepan for that matter -- and Hagelin didnt have a problem playing with them.

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11-28-2012, 10:57 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by I Am Chariot View Post
I don't disagree with you, chemistry is found in odd places sometimes, but I shutter at Boyle and Hags on the same line. The fastest guy on the team and the slowest guy on the team seems counter intuitive
I don't think Boyle is the slowest guy on the team. His top speed is average, it's really his first few steps that are lousy. That being said, I think adding a guy like Hagelin who can rush the puck and is a pretty solid passer to Boyles wing will create more opportunities. It adds a counter-attack threat to a line with a very solid defensive centermen, and in the offensive zone they'd be a forechecking nightmare for the opposition.

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11-28-2012, 11:01 AM
  #58
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I don't think Boyle is the slowest guy on the team. His top speed is average, it's really his first few steps that are lousy. That being said, I think adding a guy like Hagelin who can rush the puck and is a pretty solid passer to Boyles wing will create more opportunities. It adds a counter-attack threat to a line with a very solid defensive centermen, and in the offensive zone they'd be a forechecking nightmare for the opposition.
I agree.

But even for those who dont agree, it should be pretty evident that the best thing Boyle will have going for him with his regular 3rd line linemates (likely to be cycled between Hagelin/Kreider/Pyatt) is that they're not Fedotenko and Prust.

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11-28-2012, 11:12 AM
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I really fail to see how Callahan is the better PKer. I think he's the better OFFENSIVE PKer, but I'd take Boyle in the defensive zone over Callahan. Boyle is a truly elite PKer.
To me, the offensive skill translates in the defensive zone. Callahan makes better decisions with the puck on his stick in his own end. And that's what separates the two the most.

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11-28-2012, 11:19 AM
  #60
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To me, the offensive skill translates in the defensive zone. Callahan makes better decisions with the puck on his stick in his own end. And that's what separates the two the most.
For me, it comes down to what you prefer better when it comes to the PK - someone who could read the play and has a high hockey IQ (Callahan) or someone who uses his physical attributes to maximize his PK play (Boyle). Theres really no wrong answer as far as Im concerned.

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11-28-2012, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
For me, it comes down to what you prefer better when it comes to the PK - someone who could read the play and has a high hockey IQ (Callahan) or someone who uses his physical attributes to maximize his PK play (Boyle). Theres really no wrong answer as far as Im concerned.
Agreed for the most part. I actually think Boyle is great at reading the play and has a high hockey IQ when the puck isn't on his stick, while still being slightly above average when he does. I also think that Callahan uses his physical attributes to maximize his PK play, namely speed and a quick stick.

On top of all that, I believe that the differences in the two styles are one of the things that makes our PK effective.

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11-28-2012, 11:39 AM
  #62
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I really don't see how this is even an argument right now, it's Callahan and it's not even close.

The guy has had multiple top-10 finishes in Selke voting. The guy was brought onto team USA almost specifically for his grit, defensive prowess and penalty killing.

Callahan is easily the better defensive player and penalty killer.

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11-28-2012, 11:51 AM
  #63
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Selke voting includes more than just PK. And I wold say that some of Callahan's other abilities, being his skating and forecheck, are what gave him a leg up on some other PK specialist options. Well, that and his PK chemistry with Drury, who was going to be on the team. Besides, Boyle had yet to come into his own as a PKer at that time. Not that I think he'll make it in 2014, but it isn't really an apples comparison.

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11-28-2012, 11:53 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
The guy has had multiple top-10 finishes in Selke voting.
Marek Malik has a 2nd place Norris vote...

And Selke isn't voted on solely for defense. Offensive play is a necessity to get any Selke votes.

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11-28-2012, 11:58 AM
  #65
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Pavel Datsyuk won the Selke 3 years in a row and wasn't even one of the primary PKers on his own team. Really doesn't mean a whole lot.

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11-28-2012, 12:11 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Callahan is easily the better defensive player and penalty killer.
I agree. He speed allows him to cover more ground and provide more pressure. And he can resume play pretty quickly if he blocks a shot or finds himself on the ground. It takes Boyle half he PK to get his ass up.

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11-28-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Marek Malik has a 2nd place Norris vote...
Ok, I'd love to see this.

And even IF there is a 2nd place vote, that's ONE vote. Callahan FINISHED as high as 6th multiple times. You're comparing a stastical anomaly to a consistent trend. While I get the point you're trying to make, I think the comparison you used was completely off the mark.

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And Selke isn't voted on solely for defense. Offensive play is a necessity to get any Selke votes.
Tell that to Rick Meagher, he won a Selke and was brutal offensively.

Pavel Datsyuk is either 1st or 2nd every year in take aways, is great on faceoffs does the little things in the defensive end that most don't see because they're too busy waiting for him to dangle 5 guys and score.

Not only that, but your last point kind of helps make the point that I'm trying to make about Callahan over Boyle, and it's also a point that Tawnos has made previously in this thread. Offense can translate to defense when used properly, and vice versa. Callahan is proof of this. His tenacious forechecking and play with the puck along the boards helps. This is a guy that pins opposing defenses in their own zone sometimes due to his speed and defensive play. This also works on the PK because of his ability to get to more defenders. Boyle might block more shots because he can't get in passing/shooting lanes as quickly as Callahan can.

If you're positioned properly in the defensive zone on the pk and you clog up lanes, you won't have to block as many shots because pointmen won't be as willing to shoot with someone in their lane already. Not only that, but I've seen Callahan intercept quite a few more cross ice passes than Boyle has.

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Pavel Datsyuk won the Selke 3 years in a row and wasn't even one of the primary PKers on his own team. Really doesn't mean a whole lot.
Because when you have a guy like Datsyuk, you don't use him as a primary pk'er. He's more than good enough to do so, but would you want a superstar player, arguably the best all-around player in the league blocking shots on your pk?

Callahan is a far more valuable and better all-around player than Boyle is. Who would you rather lose to an injury? The all-around 29-goal scorer who is your captain and plays in all game situations? Or the 3rd line defensive center that can pop 10+ goals a year?

It's poor asset management to have your team's captain who just missed the 30-goal mark by a single goal out there killing penalties more than Brian Boyle, who is a more than viable option on the PK. I'm not saying Boyle is a terrible PK'er, but Callahan is far better at it and is too valuable of a player to have him risking a broken ankle or a facial injury or concussion from a blocked shot when we have options that can get the job done.

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11-28-2012, 01:11 PM
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Last edited by CM Lundqvist: 11-28-2012 at 01:27 PM.
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11-28-2012, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Ok, I'd love to see this.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/5185149/


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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
And even IF there is a 2nd place vote, that's ONE vote. Callahan FINISHED as high as 6th multiple times. You're comparing a stastical anomaly to a consistent trend. While I get the point you're trying to make, I think the comparison you used was completely off the mark.
Obviously it's a caricature of the voting system, and not a total accurate reflection.

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11-28-2012, 01:28 PM
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Ok, I can't upload youtube videos. You'd figure after being on this site for 6 years I'd have eventually learned lol.

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11-28-2012, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/5185149/



Obviously it's a caricature of the voting system, and not a total accurate reflection.
Yes, but as I said before, one statistical anomaly doesn't reflect the inaccuracy of a voting system that's voted on by hockey writers who are paid professionals. Do I feel that Weber should have won the Norris this year? Absolutely, but I can see why Karlsson got it. He was the most dominant defenseman in the NHL, controlling the pace of the game EVERYTIME he is on the ice, which is a factor that has gone completely overlooked.

I think we're pretty much on the same page, but I'll just agree to disagree with you here.

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11-28-2012, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Because when you have a guy like Datsyuk, you don't use him as a primary pk'er. He's more than good enough to do so, but would you want a superstar player, arguably the best all-around player in the league blocking shots on your pk?

Callahan is a far more valuable and better all-around player than Boyle is. Who would you rather lose to an injury? The all-around 29-goal scorer who is your captain and plays in all game situations? Or the 3rd line defensive center that can pop 10+ goals a year?

It's poor asset management to have your team's captain who just missed the 30-goal mark by a single goal out there killing penalties more than Brian Boyle, who is a more than viable option on the PK. I'm not saying Boyle is a terrible PK'er, but Callahan is far better at it and is too valuable of a player to have him risking a broken ankle or a facial injury or concussion from a blocked shot when we have options that can get the job done.
You were the one who used Selke nominations as evidence that he's a great PKer, not me.

I'm not grasping your logic here. Callahan is the superior PKer, but Tortorella is more likely to use Boyle, who in your own words is far below Cally in ability, just so Callahan is less likely to get injured blocking a shot? Callahan was already 3rd in the NHL in blocked shots amongst forwards. How is that not risking a guy to injury? Not to mention I can't really see "preservation" being an issue when it's supposedly a downgrade in terms of ability.

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11-29-2012, 12:43 PM
  #73
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This guy has seen Boyle lose a few faceoffs - thats a FACT.
You're a funny guy. You guys are all funny and you're standards are way too low. I am not comfortable with a 3rd line center that scores 11 goals on the season, cannot pass the puck and has almost no offensive instincts. That is what I hope for out of my 4th line center if he plays 82 games. His shooting % of 6% is not an anomoly; it speaks to his capability with the puck.

And regarding him leading the team in faceoff%. Dubi led the team in that category and Boyle was tied with Richie. He was better than Step and Arty who as we all know are poor faceoff men. Now that we have Halpern, Boyle is arguably our 3rd best faceoff guy. We need to expect more from a 3rd line center. He needs to slot onto the 4th line. If not, we have a clear weakness and that is our 3rd line center assuming the Rangers ever play again.

I understand the manlove. He works hard, says the right things, does alot of the dirty work. And that is all good but I'm not willing to forfeit that much offense on my third line which will get alot of ice time under Torts' system. If he plays with more talented players like Hags or Kolarik or Kreider, I expect they will not pull him up. He will hold them down in the offensive zone and that will be a shame.

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11-29-2012, 01:01 PM
  #74
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You're a funny guy. You guys are all funny and you're standards are way too low. I am not comfortable with a 3rd line center that scores 11 goals on the season, cannot pass the puck and has almost no offensive instincts. That is what I hope for out of my 4th line center if he plays 82 games. His shooting % of 6% is not an anomoly; it speaks to his capability with the puck.

And regarding him leading the team in faceoff%. Dubi led the team in that category and Boyle was tied with Richie. He was better than Step and Arty who as we all know are poor faceoff men. Now that we have Halpern, Boyle is arguably our 3rd best faceoff guy. We need to expect more from a 3rd line center. He needs to slot onto the 4th line. If not, we have a clear weakness and that is our 3rd line center assuming the Rangers ever play again.

I understand the manlove. He works hard, says the right things, does alot of the dirty work. And that is all good but I'm not willing to forfeit that much offense on my third line which will get alot of ice time under Torts' system. If he plays with more talented players like Hags or Kolarik or Kreider, I expect they will not pull him up. He will hold them down in the offensive zone and that will be a shame.
Your gripe always resorts back to the offense issue. It shows a stunning lack of regard for specific roles that are necessary for a winning hockey team.

But beyond that, instead of *****ing about Boyle, enlighten us with some realistic options who meet your mighty standard of a 3rd line center. Options that hopefully do not begin with something insane like Jason Arnott.

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11-29-2012, 01:02 PM
  #75
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His shooting % of 6% is not an anomoly; it speaks to his capability with the puck.
I suppose when he shot 9.6% and 11.1%, those were anomalies though, right?

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