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Luongo thread continued...

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11-27-2012, 03:57 PM
  #201
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Can you tell me where Gillis has been caught in an outright lie? .... Burke has done on it multiple occasions to suite his purpose. You cannot colour these two with the same brush by saying all GMs do.



My "hatred" is of Burke's method, not Burke himself. Perhaps because I wasn't so acutely aware of his patterns when managing my team, only to realize it afterwards. I recognize that he's headed down the same path. He has again here a golden chance to cement his legacy and is flushing it down the gutter.



It's also about Luongo. I selfishly want him on the biggest stage so he thrives for the rest of his career in the spotlight. That's TO. Except that Burke's old ideologies are getting in the way. It's like someone needs to save him for himself. If Luongo goes anywhere else, that has to be seen as an indictment on Burke for not stepping up to get this major asset, when it was available.
Again Bleach...if the deal is Upshall,Shore and a 2nd to FLA...then i totally agree with you, Burke failed. But if Gillis is demanding Gardiner,Frattin,Bozak and our 1st (or anything reletively close) then Burke can't be blamed for walking.

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11-27-2012, 04:08 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Wow...your Burke hatred is getting intense. I openly admitted he lies to the media....all GM's do.
Many of us Canuck fans are still sore for how he built and treated this team. When we say we want him out of Toronto, it's not out of spite (at least not fully ), we just think he will continue to command his ship into the rocks, being a not quite lottery pick team and a non-playoff team for some time. His biggest holes, here and in Toronto, have been a number one center and a top goalie. His M.O. hasn't changed.


And another reason on top of need vs. strengths, NTC, animosity (allegedly) between the two GMs and our ability to keep both goalies that I think we won't see a Toronto-Vancouver trade for Luongo.

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11-27-2012, 04:09 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Again Bleach...if the deal is Upshall,Shore and a 2nd to FLA...then i totally agree with you, Burke failed. But if Gillis is demanding Gardiner,Frattin,Bozak and our 1st (or anything reletively close) then Burke can't be blamed for walking.


I fully expect the deal to be "softer" for FLA.



Again, Burke can still be blamed for not getting close to that demand. The pieces are justified. However, the pieces hurt TO more than it would others because they aren't as good (something you have also expressed). Other teams can more readily give up such a package, I get that... But should that matter to Gillis when all he's going to be left with are the pieces coming back? No. He's going to be judged strictly on what comes back. So a decision will have to be made on Burke's end, get close enough without giving up Gardiner, or lose out.



Besides, what is relatively close to Gardiner + Frattin + Bozak + 1st, that would also be an overpayment? Keep in mind that the prime assets in that package are the 1st and Gardiner.

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11-27-2012, 04:15 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Many of us Canuck fans are still sore for how he built and treated this team. When we say we want him out of Toronto, it's not out of spite (at least not fully ), we just think he will continue to command his ship into the rocks, being a not quite lottery pick team and a non-playoff team for some time. His biggest holes, here and in Toronto, have been a number one center and a top goalie. His M.O. hasn't changed.


And another reason on top of need vs. strengths, NTC, animosity (allegedly) between the two GMs and our ability to keep both goalies that I think we won't see a Toronto-Vancouver trade for Luongo.



Thank you for expressing my stance more clearly. This isn't unchecked hate. This is hoping Burke wakes up in time to Luongo's benefit. Change the pattern.



Luongo has a chance here to shine again in the spotlight before he is done... If Burke would only allow it.

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11-27-2012, 04:17 PM
  #205
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Lupul, Holzer, Bozak and a 1st....a different piece added to a....known offer we've talked about here.

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11-27-2012, 04:19 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I fully expect the deal to be "softer" for FLA.



Again, Burke can still be blamed for not getting close to that demand. The pieces are justified. However, the pieces hurt TO more than it would others because they aren't as good (something you have also expressed). Other teams can more readily give up such a package, I get that... But should that matter to Gillis when all he's going to be left with are the pieces coming back? No. He's going to be judged strictly on what comes back. So a decision will have to be made on Burke's end, get close enough without giving up Gardiner, or lose out.



Besides, what is relatively close to Gardiner + Frattin + Bozak + 1st, that would also be an overpayment? Keep in mind that the prime assets in that package are the 1st and Gardiner.
I don't expect Gillis to lower his price to help anyone. If he gets his price from anyone thats great. And any packag that includes both Gardiner and the 1st is to much.

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11-27-2012, 04:20 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Thank you for expressing my stance more clearly. This isn't unchecked hate. This is hoping Burke wakes up in time to Luongo's benefit. Change the pattern.



Luongo has a chance here to shine again in the spotlight before he is done... If Burke would only allow it.
Well I'm glad someone is of a like mind in that regard, or at least willing to express it. I think Burke is behind Bettman alone for the "guy Cogburn hates most in hockey". Recchi, Keith, Messier and others all take a back seat in my mind.

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11-27-2012, 04:26 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Lupul, Holzer, Bozak and a 1st....a different piece added to a....known offer we've talked about here.
So you only want two thirds of our first line as well as our 1st and a prospect....gee...thanks for taking it easy on us.

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11-27-2012, 04:26 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
That's what I'd like to know. Could anyone shed some light on what has transpired for those of us who began avoiding this thread altogether? How is it possible that Gillis and Burke are exchanging offers with one another when there isn't even a CBA in place?
If Burke made an offer it would have been all over the Leaf board. This seems more like wishful thinking by some.

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11-27-2012, 04:30 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So you only want two thirds of our first line as well as our 1st and a prospect....gee...thanks for taking it easy on us.
You should that just because they're on a 1st line doesn't give them the value of a 1st liner.

Would a package of Grabovski (2nd liner) Kulemin, (2nd liner) and a non 1st round pick be better? Not really.

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11-27-2012, 04:34 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I don't expect Gillis to lower his price to help anyone. If he gets his price from anyone thats great. And any packag that includes both Gardiner and the 1st is to much.


I expect that if the packages are similar, Gillis would take less from FLA to make Luongo happy. He's a player's GM, much like Burke in fact, so it does factor in.



I understand that the package with Gardiner + 1st is too much. But if you have to replace Gardiner, as the 1st is already changed from being 5th overall to possibly a mid-rounder in 2013, and still stay relatively close in value, what do you offer up and why? Because I feel that's what is ultimately going to get this deal done.

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11-27-2012, 04:35 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So you only want two thirds of our first line as well as our 1st and a prospect....gee...thanks for taking it easy on us.
Well, beats Gardiner, 1st, Bozak and Frattin, doesn't it? I've lowered are asking price, now you up your bid

Seriously though, last year's first line was largely Lupul-Bozak-Kessel, and clearly they played well together, but wouldn't JVR and Grabovski be pushing for those two spots? Not to mention the assumed by all parites to be rebounding Kulemin, MacArthur (my vote for Kessel's LW) and prospects like Colborne, Kadri, Ashton (I think) and expiring contracts like Lombardi or Connolly in the mix for the top nine, I fail to see how losing to top six forwards is crippling compared to Gillis' original request.

Is there something you would substitute in for either, or both, player that you think we could agree on? Hell, I'd even be fine with the first being conditional on Lupul not resigning or something, or include Raymond or someone as a replacement winger for Lupul (not ideal, but more to sub in to the 2/3 line to cover the promotion someone else would be getting).

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11-27-2012, 05:01 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Lupul, Holzer, Bozak and a 1st....a different piece added to a....known offer we've talked about here.
Eh, I'd be happy with the offer from earlier in this thread: Lupul, Colbourne, Connolly, first for Luongo and a first, both being 2014. Again, would like to get Kadri in that deal but I'm good either way.

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11-27-2012, 05:15 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I expect that if the packages are similar, Gillis would take less from FLA to make Luongo happy. He's a player's GM, much like Burke in fact, so it does factor in.



I understand that the package with Gardiner + 1st is too much. But if you have to replace Gardiner, as the 1st is already changed from being 5th overall to possibly a mid-rounder in 2013, and still stay relatively close in value, what do you offer up and why? Because I feel that's what is ultimately going to get this deal done.
See, this is where you and I disagree. I don't think Gillis made that his initial demand because that's what he's decided it will cost for Luongo, I think he set that price so he could negotiate down from it. When negotiating it's best not to start with your best offer, and if Gillis isn't willing to come down from there in value then I don't think he's really trying to negotiate a deal.

One offer from Burke was believed to be Kulemin, Komisarek and a 1st. I think they'll meet in the somewhere in the middle of those two packages, with external factors such as market, CBA etc determining who's side of the 'middle' the final deal ends up on.

For my money, Kulemin, Kadri, Connolly and a 1st for Luongo, Raymond and a 3rd is the "comprise deal", but I fully expect both sides to shun it.

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11-27-2012, 05:15 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Eh, I'd be happy with the offer from earlier in this thread: Lupul, Colbourne, Connolly, first for Luongo and a first, both being 2014. Again, would like to get Kadri in that deal but I'm good either way.


And do both Lupul and Connolly walk at the end of the year? The problem with that trade isn't value (although that can be debated too), it's that "new" Canuck team isn't sustainable anyways.


Guys like Kadri make much more sense for that reason.

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11-27-2012, 05:22 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So you only want two thirds of our first line as well as our 1st and a prospect....gee...thanks for taking it easy on us.
JVR, Bozak, 1st
for Luo, and we'll throw in Raymond, as I know how much you want him

(kidding aside, he sort of works as a downgrade to JVR if you're willing to give the value there...)

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11-27-2012, 05:25 PM
  #217
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JVR won't be traded... he was literally just traded for one of the leafs most valuable pieces

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11-27-2012, 05:34 PM
  #218
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JVR won't be traded... he was literally just traded for one of the leafs most valuable pieces
we like valuable pieces
they're much better than the other ones

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11-27-2012, 05:37 PM
  #219
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You should that just because they're on a 1st line doesn't give them the value of a 1st liner.

Would a package of Grabovski (2nd liner) Kulemin, (2nd liner) and a non 1st round pick be better? Not really.
Why is it so dam hard for people to get it. I never said their value league wide was as 1st liners. But they are our 1st liners. This is again why a deal isn't good between us, Van says this is what we want and we don't care how it effects your team....and then can't figure out why TO fans say no. WE DO NOT have the depth to give Van fans what they feel is worthy.

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11-27-2012, 05:38 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
JVR, Bozak, 1st
for Luo, and we'll throw in Raymond, as I know how much you want him

(kidding aside, he sort of works as a downgrade to JVR if you're willing to give the value there...)
Luongo is not worth that package. Forget it. You won't get that value from any team.

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11-27-2012, 05:42 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Any GM lying in the media isn't new.
This is why I like you LL & want you to have a god team to cheer for! You don't make up crap to suit an argument, it was very tiring being told that we shouldn't listen to Gillis or Luongo because they weren't telling the truth but other GM's should be trusted.


Man do I ever NOT miss July on here

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11-27-2012, 05:43 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
WE DO NOT have the depth to give Van fans what they feel is worthy.
TO actually has pretty good winger depth and pretty good prospect depth. They also have 4 NHL calibre LD.

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11-27-2012, 05:48 PM
  #223
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TO actually has pretty good winger depth and pretty good prospect depth. They also have 4 NHL calibre LD.
This is true. Kessel, Lupul, JVR and Kulemin are actually very impressive in terms of having 4 wingers that good.

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11-27-2012, 05:49 PM
  #224
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See, this is where you and I disagree. I don't think Gillis made that his initial demand because that's what he's decided it will cost for Luongo, I think he set that price so he could negotiate down from it. When negotiating it's best not to start with your best offer, and if Gillis isn't willing to come down from there in value then I don't think he's really trying to negotiate a deal.


We don't actually disagree here. We both think Gillis will deal down from his initial demand. It's how much lower he will accept. Clearly, he's lowered his demand already by going from the 5th overall to perhaps a mid 1st rounder in 2013 -- So he's already not going to get the same value.



It comes down to Gardiner IMO. When Gillis moves off of him, and he will, what gets close to his value? Is Kadri in the same ballpark? Kadri + Percy? And how does that change the rest of the package if that's more value than Gardiner? etc... That's where I think a deal gets done



Quote:
One offer from Burke was believed to be Kulemin, Komisarek and a 1st. I think they'll meet in the somewhere in the middle of those two packages, with external factors such as market, CBA etc determining who's side of the 'middle' the final deal ends up on.

For my money, Kulemin, Kadri, Connolly and a 1st for Luongo, Raymond and a 3rd is the "comprise deal", but I fully expect both sides to shun it.


Nope. Gillis is clear about not taking on salary dumps, and the reason is clear: Next year, the Canucks have to shed 9m in salary overall to get under a 60m cap. This with having to sign Higgins, Edler, Lapierre, Malhotra and Raymond... Not looking good.



IMO it's why guys like Bozak and Frattin were targeted. Low salaries.

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11-27-2012, 05:51 PM
  #225
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To Van- Kulemin, Frattin, Biggs, Percy
To Tor- Luongo, Raymond

Toronto holds onto all their top assets and their 1st rd pick.

The Canucks get bigger and younger - 2 things Gillis said he's looking to do.

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