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Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
11-27-2012, 05:24 PM
  #76
LEAFANFORLIFE23
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
no it's an argument (and a poor one, since you don't even try to prove it), you should look up what the word fact means.

Anyway, feels like debating with a 13 year old- time to use the good old ignore button to keep this a bit more civil and meaningful
no it's a fact 2 of the guys I listed are cup winners in ward and fluery ward also has a playoff mvp and price is possibly the top young goalie in the NHL. Most of the guys you listed aren't in the NHL so how can be as good when they don't play in the top league?

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11-27-2012, 05:25 PM
  #77
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Within the last 5 years, its between Russia and Canada.

Too much importance shouldn't be put on 1 single tourney because anything can happen, but judging holistically it could go either way. Depends on how much weight one ascribes to the OG, WC or WJC relative to each other.

5 year span (2008-12)
Canadian golds
1 olympic, 0 WC, 2 WJC

Russian golds
0 olympic, 3 WC, 1 WJC

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11-27-2012, 05:32 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Pretty misleading information here, and not just when you say that Russia has been badly outplaying Canada at this tournament. Canada generally sends a handful of the best players each year, at best. When Stamkos played he was still a teenager, and fresh after being left off the Olympic team. Tavares wasn't really an elite player who would make the actual team Canada until the last tournament. Perry I will give you, he has actually shown up for Canada for the most part. Unfortunately, he is the exception rather than the rule. The only other player from this last year who would definitely have made Canada is Keith. When you get a Russian team sending out most of their optimal roster against a Canadian team sending maybe three of the players from their optimal roster, you'll have to forgive us for taking the results with a grain of salt.
Well, Russia generally also sends what you would consider a handful of best players. Unless you were to consider the KHL players also Elite players, which would be closer to the truth. Either way, my point is that Russia finds a way to win with KHL players, however you rate them (beer leaguers or Elite), these guys can not only compete but win against NHL competition sprinkled with a Handful of best, this shows depth.

Last I checked, Bob Nicholson did not take the results with a grain of salt and Hockey Canada was seriously disappointed in the current run. Their current international form is indisputably bad at WC. And I don't mean it's not impressive, but it's actually BAD. How could the"Best Hockey Country in the World" allow this? hmm.

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11-27-2012, 05:34 PM
  #79
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No. Is it even No. 2?

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11-27-2012, 05:38 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
No. Is it even No. 2?
Canada? Maybe #2

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11-27-2012, 05:40 PM
  #81
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but they do have silver medals in 2 of the last 3 olympics and they got a TON of young talent coming
"Young talent coming" isn't now though. Who knows how those players will develop. One of those Silver medals was 10 years ago. The only guys not retired are Poti, Rolston, and York (playing in DEL). Not to mention it wasn't a true best on best, with Slovakia getting screwed out of using their NHLers. Sure 2010 was recent, but they rode a hot goalie, even though that is usually what leads to success in theses short tournaments with the top 7 teams so close, but it doesn't mean you can look at just one tournament to judge the best teams.

Look at their last 10 world championship results
2003 - Finished in 13th place
2004 - Won bronze medal
2005 - Finished in 6th place
2006 - Finished in 7th place
2007 - Finished in 5th place
2008 - Finished in 6th place
2009 - Finished in 4th place
2010 - Finished in 13th place
2011 - Finished in 8th place
2012 - Finished in 7th place


The US is clearly in a valley right now.

That doesn't mean they aren't big 7 or elite or anything like that. Development is cyclical and all national teams go through peaks and valleys. The US is in a valley right now, although it does look like they are heading into a peak in the next few years (although that transition takes a few years to happen when the players transition from junior to pro)

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11-27-2012, 05:56 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Well, Russia generally also sends what you would consider a handful of best players. Unless you were to consider the KHL players also Elite players, which would be closer to the truth. Either way, my point is that Russia finds a way to win with KHL players, however you rate them (beer leaguers or Elite), these guys can not only compete but win against NHL competition sprinkled with a Handful of best, this shows depth.
I trust the words of the Russian posters on here to assess their own players, and they generally say that the KHL players that are at the tournament are among their very best. Am I wrong that Russia has been sending most of their optimal team? Also, I do believe that there are some elite KHL players, the people who call it a beer league are ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Last I checked, Bob Nicholson did not take the results with a grain of salt and Hockey Canada was seriously disappointed in the current run. Their current international form is indisputably bad at WC. And I don't mean it's not impressive, but it's actually BAD. How could the"Best Hockey Country in the World" allow this? hmm.
Bob Nicholson's job is to guide Canada to success in tournaments, I would expect him to be disappointed. The average person in the country is not going to share his feelings. The results are what they are, but the grain of salt I spoke of would refer to using those results to compare nations who are sending teams of differing strength proportionally. As far as it being bad, I guess we will just have to disagree that Canada has been bad, and also what that would mean.

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11-27-2012, 05:57 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
WHC shows the depth of the country, so it does mean something either way. WJC: I tend to agree with because it vary between year to year, but again it shows how good the young depth of a country is.
Not really. Russia sends an almost Olympic-squad all the time. Nothing wrong with that though.

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11-27-2012, 06:03 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Well, Russia generally also sends what you would consider a handful of best players. Unless you were to consider the KHL players also Elite players, which would be closer to the truth. Either way, my point is that Russia finds a way to win with KHL players, however you rate them (beer leaguers or Elite), these guys can not only compete but win against NHL competition sprinkled with a Handful of best, this shows depth.

Last I checked, Bob Nicholson did not take the results with a grain of salt and Hockey Canada was seriously disappointed in the current run. Their current international form is indisputably bad at WC. And I don't mean it's not impressive, but it's actually BAD. How could the"Best Hockey Country in the World" allow this? hmm.
Actually, Czech golden team from 2010 was more KHL-based than Russia.

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11-27-2012, 06:10 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
It's actually funny to see that post, considering that the Russian coach just praised the rich selection of Russian goalies.

You know of Varlamov and Bryzgalov, but what do you know about Barulin, Koshechkin, Yeremenko, Ezhov? my guess is you know nothing about them, and therefore your "analysis" is about as accurate as that of 1972 Canadian scouts who thought that Tretiak was some average amateur kid. Not to mention coming down the pipe we have the likes of Vasilevski, Makarov and Ustinskiy, while Canada has to opt out for Visentin and Reimer??

Or do you still think that Nabokov and Khabibulin are our primary goalies?? And how about that guy Rinne, who is struggling in KHL..

And Fleury Ward and Price are Good goalies. But they are not Hasek or Brodeur calibre, so you can relax about any kind of supremacy you're feeling. It's unlikely that they'll work some miracle against Malkin and co.
Ezhov is actually a russian-canadian kid. He's also way worse than an NHL level goalie. Yeremnko was run out of town by Erik Ersberg of all people and Kosheckin is nothing special.

Also, mentioning Makarov as a sure fire future great is lunacy.

Finally, Rinne. He's not struggling. Put anybody in his place and he will not look great. Dinamo Minsk is struggling right now, not Rinne.

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11-27-2012, 06:21 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Garl View Post
Ezhov is actually a russian-canadian kid. He's also way worse than an NHL level goalie. Yeremnko was run out of town by Erik Ersberg of all people and Kosheckin is nothing special.

Also, mentioning Makarov as a sure fire future great is lunacy.

Finally, Rinne. He's not struggling. Put anybody in his place and he will not look great. Dinamo Minsk is struggling right now, not Rinne.
I don't think you've seen Ezhov's recent form. He's become a solid goalie who is still developing and can compete with Babrovsky ( so NOT! way worse an NHL level goalie- not that means much when comparing to KHL level goalies). Yeremenko was the goalie of last year's KHL playoffs and played great in clutch times from puck drop of the first game until he lifted the cup. I'm guessing you missed that as well. BTW, he was run out by the horrible defense in Salavat (Bykov- that's where the doubts started for his future with the club and the way they won games) more so than Ersberg. The knock against him is his age and future potential, but his game is good.

Mentioning Makarov as a promising talent is a fair statement. Nowhere did I say that he was a sure fire future star, very few goalies are. But he is right there with Vasilevski in terms of performance.

Rinne is not exactly helping out the team either, from the games I watched he was still adjusting. But to say that there is some NHL level goaltending that is SO MUCH Higher, is a biased statement.


Last edited by Fulcrum: 11-27-2012 at 06:27 PM.
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11-27-2012, 06:37 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Helo View Post
God i hope sochi 2014 will be won by swedes,so these arrogant russian and canadian posters can finally ease up a bit.
As a norwegian I hate to say it, but i agree

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11-27-2012, 06:38 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
I trust the words of the Russian posters on here to assess their own players, and they generally say that the KHL players that are at the tournament are among their very best. Am I wrong that Russia has been sending most of their optimal team? Also, I do believe that there are some elite KHL players, the people who call it a beer league are ignorant.



Bob Nicholson's job is to guide Canada to success in tournaments, I would expect him to be disappointed. The average person in the country is not going to share his feelings. The results are what they are, but the grain of salt I spoke of would refer to using those results to compare nations who are sending teams of differing strength proportionally. As far as it being bad, I guess we will just have to disagree that Canada has been bad, and also what that would mean.
No, I don't think you're wrong to say that Russian is not sending their optimal teams- they are. But they are also justifying it.

Whereas Canada doesn't send perhaps optimal rosters, but on paper they are still very good teams. The truth is the chances for Canadians playing a bad game at WC is higher for the reason that they have younger players, and players who are not prepared for the fierce competition that European teams bring. There are no camps, or selection tournaments and the result is 'on the wall'. It's no coincidence that Canada has struggled for a few years now. So the overall job the HC has done with regards to WC is bad.

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11-27-2012, 06:39 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by TollefsenFan View Post
As a norwegian I hate to say it, but i agree
That's the way it usually works, Canada and Russia cancel each other out, while Czechs Swedes and Finns win the gold. At all kinds of tournaments.

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11-27-2012, 06:53 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
That's the way it usually works, Canada and Russia cancel each other out, while Czechs Swedes and Finns win the gold. At all kinds of tournaments.
Yupp The top/1 line (from the big 7) is almost equal when it comes to quality. Slovakia ended in 4th place in the last olympics. Why? Because of their fantastic powerplay and great goalscorers like Hossa, Gaborik, Demitra etc. On paper Slovakia wasnt better than Sweden, but they beat Sweden. The same thing can happen in Sochi. For all i know even Finland can win the whole touranment.


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11-27-2012, 07:20 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Canada Cups do not count as best on best tournaments because they were Canadian owned and operated invitational tournaments that were not sanctioned by IIHF and, starting in 1984, only Canadian and American referees were permitted to work medal round games. You can't count it as best on best if it is designed for one nation to win.
Also, just for your information, the 1976 Canada Cup could not be a best on best because the Soviets decided to leave their best players (Kharlamov, Yakushev, Petrov, Mikhailov, etc.)
So the ONLY tournament ever played before '98 that allowed all the best players in the world to take part was designed for only one nation to win? That's silly. You only say that because Canada won all but one and the only way to justify all those losses is to discredit everything about the tournament. It has to be rigged because the truth is unacceptable.

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11-27-2012, 09:34 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
but they do have silver medals in 2 of the last 3 olympics and they got a TON of young talent coming
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
USA and russia should be switched americans are rock solid
Perhaps you are right but I disagree with the "TON" part. While the U.S. will be great in 2014, in 2018 (assuming the pros play) almost ALL of their offensive talent will be over the age of 30. The U.S. has a ton of defensive talent on the horizon but nothing up front.

Having said that, the Russian team will be more than a little old in the tooth in 2018 as well.

In 2014, Canada, the U.S. and Russia will be the teams to beat.

In 2018, it will be Canada, Sweden and Findland.

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11-27-2012, 10:04 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
Perhaps you are right but I disagree with the "TON" part. While the U.S. will be great in 2014, in 2018 (assuming the pros play) almost ALL of their offensive talent will be over the age of 30. The U.S. has a ton of defensive talent on the horizon but nothing up front.

Having said that, the Russian team will be more than a little old in the tooth in 2018 as well.

In 2014, Canada, the U.S. and Russia will be the teams to beat.

In 2018, it will be Canada, Sweden and Findland.
Russia struggled a bit with production of top talent between 2006 and 2009, esp. with death of Cherepanov (R.I.P.) but they are right back at it now. They've now fielded 3 very deep offensive teams in WJC and even more coming for 94, 95 and 96 born players. We've now went from barely finding players good enough for WJC to having up to 50 players competing for spots, and it's pretty fierce for some positions.

There are going to be 70-80 minor pro junior teams next year, probably split between two leagues. I think they are on the brink of surpassing the talent production of Canada, if they haven't already. The countries population and the speed of expansion, and the fact that it's becoming the #1 sport in the country is already visible for those who follow jrs. This time around, there are no limitations of communism in developing professionals either (like CSKA Red Army limitations in USSR)


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11-27-2012, 10:15 PM
  #94
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Russia struggled a bit with production of top talent between 2006 and 2009, esp. with death of Cherepanov (R.I.P.) but they are right back at it now. They've now fielded 3 very deep offensive teams in WJC and even more coming for 94, 95 and 96 born players. We've now went from barely finding players good enough for WJC to having up to 50 players competing for spots, and it's pretty fierce for some positions.

There are going to be 70-80 minor pro junior teams next year, probably split between two leagues. I think they are on the brink of surpassing the talent production of Canada, if they haven't already. The countries population and the speed of expansion, and the fact that it's becoming the #1 sport in the country is already visible for those who follow jrs. This time around, there are no limitations of communism in developing professionals either (like CSKA Red Army limitations in USSR)
I don't know, my friend.

When I see Russian teams play international games, I see teams that are very(!) opportunistic offensively but who are outplayed overall.
I don't think Russia is as strong and deep as Russian fans seem to think.

I also see a constant lack of talent on the back end and in goal.

By 2018, OV, Malkin, Kovalchuck and Datsyuk will be old and I don't see players, at that elite level, able to fill their shoes.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

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11-28-2012, 01:34 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I don't think you've seen Ezhov's recent form. He's become a solid goalie who is still developing and can compete with Babrovsky ( so NOT! way worse an NHL level goalie- not that means much when comparing to KHL level goalies). Yeremenko was the goalie of last year's KHL playoffs and played great in clutch times from puck drop of the first game until he lifted the cup. I'm guessing you missed that as well. BTW, he was run out by the horrible defense in Salavat (Bykov- that's where the doubts started for his future with the club and the way they won games) more so than Ersberg. The knock against him is his age and future potential, but his game is good.

Mentioning Makarov as a promising talent is a fair statement. Nowhere did I say that he was a sure fire future star, very few goalies are. But he is right there with Vasilevski in terms of performance.

Rinne is not exactly helping out the team either, from the games I watched he was still adjusting. But to say that there is some NHL level goaltending that is SO MUCH Higher, is a biased statement.
Rinne is helping his team. Put any goalie in his place, he will not have great numbers.

Yeremenko played good for Dynamo? Has there been a bad goalie for Znarok's team? He had Garnett, who was goalie of 2010 PO. Now, same strory with Yeremenko.
He is what he is, an average goalie, who can play decent on a defensivly sound team. On a team with bad defense he's not even decent. Ersberg or Rinne for example are.

And Yezhov. You know there are tons of goalies out there who have decent stats and play rather good for a team that is doing rather well? Should we say that all this guys like Salak, Wesslau, Engren, Ortio, Stana, Ahonen are NHL level? Yezhov isn't even up there with those guys, he's a clear back up Would Metallurg trade Ahonen for him for example? Laughabale, and Ahonen is dime a dozen player in Finland.

I expected you would mention Barulin.)))

And Makarov, do you really think that he's something special compared to all his canadian collegues in CHL?
Goalie prospects are hard to predict. Usually I say, wait until he starts playing in a big league.


P.S. I don't even think the situation with goalies in Russia is bad. Russia indeed has Varlamov, Bryzgalov, Bobrovsky, Barulin, Nabokov. But while this group isn't hopeless it's definately far from best in the World.

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11-28-2012, 03:12 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
Perhaps you are right but I disagree with the "TON" part. While the U.S. will be great in 2014, in 2018 (assuming the pros play) almost ALL of their offensive talent will be over the age of 30. The U.S. has a ton of defensive talent on the horizon but nothing up front.

Having said that, the Russian team will be more than a little old in the tooth in 2018 as well.

In 2014, Canada, the U.S. and Russia will be the teams to beat.

In 2018, it will be Canada, Sweden and Findland.
These projections are nonsense. It's impossible to know what the rosters will look like in 2018. There are players who could play in that tournament that might not even be drafted for a couple of years.

Outside of the obvious lunacy of projecting the teams to beat in 2018 (Especially as the Olympics have proved, all the elite can beat all the elite), why have you picked Finland? The current batch of U-22 and under for Finland is still significantly weaker than it is for Russia.

Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Grigorenko, Yakupov plus others ... i hardly think Russia will be struggling for elite Forwards come 2018.

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11-28-2012, 03:21 AM
  #97
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Considering both junior and senior level.

With the recent success at the junior hockey (winning couple super series, winning gold and silver at WJHC) plus being constantly successful at senior tourneys for the last 5 years(mostly WHC, Olympics was failed), can we say that at this point Russia is the #1 nation in hockey?

No troll thread, just an opinion.
It comes down to an argument of how you value the World Championships, because your logic is flawed elsewhere.

First of all you have to throw out the Super Series wins as they aren't Canada vs Russia, they are WHL, OHL, Q vs MHL/KHL

Second, Russia has beat Canada the last two World Juniors, but that is a relatively small sample size. Since the last lockout Canada's average finish has been a full place higher than Russia.


So the real question is how do you count the World Championships. Certainly Russia has been better. Since the last lockout Russia basically flips the script on Canada from the U20s finishing a over a full place higher on average. Russia has an average finish of 2.5, while Canada sports a sad 3.75. Now a Canadian will argue that Hockey Canada doesn't take the tournament as seriously and so it should not count. The counter argument is that isn't Russia's fault that Canada doesn't bring their best. It is a bit a silly to hear Canadians claim to be the best hockey team in the world (even if it is true), while casually dismissing international competition. The debate will never end, because there isn't a clear answer either way and mostly likely your view will be based on your rooting interests.

My view is that you don't get to just ignore international competition and claim you are the best, but you can't simply proclaim the Russians as the #1 hockey country in the world. You would likely be correct to say that Russia's hockey program has been slightly more successful than Canada's recently, but #1 hockey country in the world in a nebulous concept that skews more towards an NCAA football style AP poll champion of argument. If that is your claim then it won't be decided with numbers, but it is inherently argumentative based.

For that reason, with an essentially even split between Canada's success in the U-20s and Russia's success in the World Championship's, I've given the Canadians the tiebreaker based on thrashing Russia on the biggest stage in hockey at the Olympics.

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11-28-2012, 03:39 AM
  #98
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The US is clearly in a valley right now.

I don't know where you are getting this from.

First lets clarify. The 1996 World Cup winning squad and 2002 Silver medal squad were the same group. Most of that core group of stars were fazed out and there was nobody to replace them in 2006 which lead to a fairly embarrassing performance in Turin.

The 2010 Olympic squad had 5 players over 30 years old. Tim Thomas, Chris Drury, Brian Rafalski, Jamie Langenbrunner and Ryan Malone.

Looking at the NHL draft it's hard to see any reasoning for such a conclusion that the US is in a valley right now. From 1992 to 1999 the US averaged 2.75 players drafted in the first round of the NHL draft. This is the prime age cohort for players to be reaching their maximum potential for the 2006 olympics. From 2000 until 2010 the US averaged just over 7 players drafted in the first round of the NHL draft.

The 2010 Silver Medal US team, which was undefeated in regulation, has around 3/4ths of its roster under 30. The draft numbers for US players have tripled. Could you please explain how the US is "clearly in a valley right now?"

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11-28-2012, 03:43 AM
  #99
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It comes down to an argument of how you value the World Championships, because your logic is flawed elsewhere.

First of all you have to throw out the Super Series wins as they aren't Canada vs Russia, they are WHL, OHL, Q vs MHL/KHL

Second, Russia has beat Canada the last two World Juniors, but that is a relatively small sample size. Since the last lockout Canada's average finish has been a full place higher than Russia.


So the real question is how do you count the World Championships. Certainly Russia has been better. Since the last lockout Russia basically flips the script on Canada from the U20s finishing a over a full place higher on average. Russia has an average finish of 2.5, while Canada sports a sad 3.75. Now a Canadian will argue that Hockey Canada doesn't take the tournament as seriously and so it should not count. The counter argument is that isn't Russia's fault that Canada doesn't bring their best. It is a bit a silly to hear Canadians claim to be the best hockey team in the world (even if it is true), while casually dismissing international competition. The debate will never end, because there isn't a clear answer either way and mostly likely your view will be based on your rooting interests.

My view is that you don't get to just ignore international competition and claim you are the best, but you can't simply proclaim the Russians as the #1 hockey country in the world. You would likely be correct to say that Russia's hockey program has been slightly more successful than Canada's recently, but #1 hockey country in the world in a nebulous concept that skews more towards an NCAA football style AP poll champion of argument. If that is your claim then it won't be decided with numbers, but it is inherently argumentative based.

For that reason, with an essentially even split between Canada's success in the U-20s and Russia's success in the World Championship's, I've given the Canadians the tiebreaker based on thrashing Russia on the biggest stage in hockey at the Olympics.
The most reasoned and thoughtful response in this entire thread. Kudos, Sir! I can accept your argument and if Russia can manage a gold in Sochi, then I'll concede to them the number 1 spot for a while. But I look at their prospective team and I really don't see a team that's a whole lot different than the one that crashed and burned in 2010, other than a few new faces and a new starting goaltender. Home ice advantage is really going to have to be the determining factor as I see the Americans, Canadians and Swedes all ahead of the Russians at the moment. I've said this a thousand times already, it could very easily be a U.S. Sweden gold medal game in Sochi. In fact I see that scenario more likely than either Canada or Russia winning gold there. HC in this lockout is doing **** for our players, while only 8 players (prospective Olympic team players are currently playing in Europe.) And it's time for HC to get off its *** and do something now as it looks as though the chances of an NHL season being played is extremely remote. We could very well have a very disjointed and poorly organized team yet again just like the one that followed the previous lockout. HC, more specifically Canadian hockey players who like to blow off the World Championships every spring better get serious about it and get serious in a hurry, as it may be the only competition they get for a while.

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11-28-2012, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
The most reasoned and thoughtful response in this entire thread. Kudos, Sir! I can accept your argument and if Russia can manage a gold in Sochi, then I'll concede to them the number 1 spot for a while. But I look at their prospective team and I really don't see a team that's a whole lot different than the one that crashed and burned in 2010, other than a few new faces and a new starting goaltender. Home ice advantage is really going to have to be the determining factor as I see the Americans, Canadians and Swedes all ahead of the Russians at the moment. I've said this a thousand times already, it could very easily be a U.S. Sweden gold medal game in Sochi. In fact I see that scenario more likely than either Canada or Russia winning gold there. HC in this lockout is doing **** for our players, while only 8 players (prospective Olympic team players are currently playing in Europe.) And it's time for HC to get off its *** and do something now as it looks as though the chances of an NHL season being played is extremely remote. We could very well have a very disjointed and poorly organized team yet again just like the one that followed the previous lockout. HC, more specifically Canadian hockey players who like to blow off the World Championships every spring better get serious about it and get serious in a hurry, as it may be the only competition they get for a while.
I think the season starts in January, but that's just me. That said the Swedes, American, Canadians and Russians all look to have immensely talented squads going into Sochi and I'm pretty excited about the young talent coming from those countries as well as others.

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