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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Gary Bettman and Donald Fehr; What happens next to them?

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Old
11-27-2012, 02:34 PM
  #101
pepty
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
If the NHL was so offended and frustrated with the NHLPA's first proposal maybe they need to consider how their own first attempt came off to the NHLPA. The NHL's scorched earth proposal that kicked off things in August did absolutely nothing to get negotiations moving in the right direction. But but but Fehr didn't want to negotiate during the season. So, I don't know, maybe take the high road or something?

Freudian, I am NOT pro-NHLPA, btw.
They weren't facing Fehr, or before that Goodenow.

If they had faced either of those guys with their gaggle of hardliners, things might not have gone so well. The NHL was fortunate to have a commissioner who could stand up to the PA and did not cave as a revenue split of 75 percent going to the players would not have led to a healthy league.

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11-27-2012, 02:36 PM
  #102
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Bettman will keep his job for another 3-4 years, then hand it off to Daly.

Fehr will retire after the season after the CBA is reached and hand it to his brother.

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11-27-2012, 02:39 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Freudian, I don't dispute a single thing you say here. Fehr wanted conflict and he got it. My beef is this: It's Bettman's league, not Fehr's. And Bettman seems keen on using lockouts for conflict resolution. Shoddy conflict resolution skills in my humble opinion. Why can other league's wade through turbulant waters without losing 10% of it's games in the past 20 years? Bad luck for Bettman? I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it. I think we can agree to disagree and move on. Everyone else is probably sick of reading our argument anyway.
The players' salaries can actually be supported by the revenue that those leagues generate perhaps.

NFL and MLB players make far less than 50% of their leagues' total revenue. NHL players have stepped down from 70% to 57% and think that is reasonable. The owners are looking for a 50/50 split. It isn't hard to see which side is being unreasonable IMO.

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11-27-2012, 02:51 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
The players' salaries can actually be supported by the revenue that those leagues generate perhaps.

NFL and MLB players make far less than 50% of their leagues' total revenue. NHL players have stepped down from 70% to 57% and think that is reasonable. The owners are looking for a 50/50 split. It isn't hard to see which side is being unreasonable IMO.
and a bunch of other stuff, too - which is not necessary if they have a 50/50 split. You are right, it isn't hard to see who's being unreasonable

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11-27-2012, 03:17 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Conflict was inevitable here. Fehr wanted it. He steered this ship towards lockout as much as Bettman did.
More accurately, the PA wanted it. Paul Kelly dared suggest another path - that the PA could actually work with the owners, actually listen to their concerns, negotiate the next CBA well in advance of the expiration of the current one, and get a deal in place long before it comes to a lockout.

And for that, the PA declared Kelly an owners' stooge, stuck a knife in his back, then invited the one labour leader in all of pro sports who took players out on a strike long enough to cancel a championship to head their union.

I maintain that the NHLPA went institutionally insane as a result of discovering Eagleson was a corrupt fraud and genuine owners' stooge, and then losing the 04/05 season in their crusade to avoid a salary cap, only to have one thrust on them in the end. They therefore see any union head who dares try to work with the owners as Eagleson redux, and see the owners in general, and Bettman in particular, as their mortal adversaries, to be fought to the death on any & every issue. They got legitimately screwed by Eagleson, and 'lost' the 04/05 lockout and so they are hell-bent they will never be screwed or 'lose' a CBA negotiation ever again.

Their past experiences utterly blind them to doing things any other way, and for that we are all the poorer.

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11-27-2012, 03:26 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
More accurately, the PA wanted it. Paul Kelly dared suggest another path - that the PA could actually work with the owners, actually listen to their concerns, negotiate the next CBA well in advance of the expiration of the current one, and get a deal in place long before it comes to a lockout.

And for that, the PA declared Kelly an owners' stooge, stuck a knife in his back, then invited the one labour leader in all of pro sports who took players out on a strike long enough to cancel a championship to head their union.

I maintain that the NHLPA went institutionally insane as a result of discovering Eagleson was a corrupt fraud and genuine owners' stooge, and then losing the 04/05 season in their crusade to avoid a salary cap, only to have one thrust on them in the end. They therefore see any union head who dares try to work with the owners as Eagleson redux, and see the owners in general, and Bettman in particular, as their mortal adversaries, to be fought to the death on any & every issue. They got legitimately screwed by Eagleson, and 'lost' the 04/05 lockout and so they are hell-bent they will never be screwed or 'lose' a CBA negotiation ever again.

Their past experiences utterly blind them to doing things any other way, and for that we are all the poorer.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Great post.

It really does seem like this is all about revenge for the PA - even though the average salary almost doubled in the last 7 years. Go figure.

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11-27-2012, 03:57 PM
  #107
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and a bunch of other stuff, too - which is not necessary if they have a 50/50 split. You are right, it isn't hard to see who's being unreasonable
All of which is negotiable. The NHLPA can't even accept the 50/50 split without a bunch of other stuff that makes it unpalatable to the owners. But you're right Fehr was a ready and willing partner in the negotiations.

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11-27-2012, 04:09 PM
  #108
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All of which is negotiable. The NHLPA can't even accept the 50/50 split without a bunch of other stuff that makes it unpalatable to the owners. But you're right Fehr was a ready and willing partner in the negotiations.
Really? The owners (Daly on their behalf) said it isn't.

Saying "The NHLPA can't even accept the 50/50 split without a bunch of other stuff that makes it unpalatable to the owners." is like saying "The Owners can't even offer the 50/50 split without a bunch of other stuff that makes it unpalatable to the players."

Um, sorry...the problems in these negotiations are a little more complicated the NHLPA alone not being a "ready and willing partner in the negotiations:

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11-27-2012, 04:25 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
I maintain that the NHLPA went institutionally insane as a result of discovering Eagleson was a corrupt fraud and genuine owners' stooge, and then losing the 04/05 season in their crusade to avoid a salary cap, only to have one thrust on them in the end. They therefore see any union head who dares try to work with the owners as Eagleson redux, and see the owners in general, and Bettman in particular, as their mortal adversaries, to be fought to the death on any & every issue. They got legitimately screwed by Eagleson, and 'lost' the 04/05 lockout and so they are hell-bent they will never be screwed or 'lose' a CBA negotiation ever again.

Their past experiences utterly blind them to doing things any other way, and for that we are all the poorer.
Probably 50% of the players never heard of the guy, if not more. I don't think there's still anyone in the league was a player when he was the union head, but there are plenty who weren't even born yet when he stepped down in '92. A few current graybeards were teenagers. I really, really doubt the current stalemate has anything to do with Eagleson.

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11-27-2012, 04:59 PM
  #110
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And for that, the PA declared Kelly an owners' stooge, stuck a knife in his back, then invited the one labour leader in all of pro sports who took players out on a strike long enough to cancel a championship to head their union.
Against the one commissioner in all of pro sports who locked out players long enough to cancel a league championship.

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11-27-2012, 06:57 PM
  #111
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Against the one commissioner in all of pro sports who locked out players long enough to cancel a league championship.
At least Bettman didn't let the players get away with playing nearly an entire season and then cancelling the playoffs. That is the difference. The players suffered more than the fans or the owners. That gave them the incentive to get back to the bargaining table and get something done.

No professional sports league will ever start a season without a CBA in place. Donald Fehr is the man to give the credit to for that.

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11-27-2012, 07:00 PM
  #112
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The League's hockey-related revenues expanded 50 percent to $3.3 billion in the seven years since Bettman notoriously dashed an entire season in an effort to break the players' union.
I dont understand this argument because its so obvious the gains in revenue have done little (if anything) to benefit the overall health of the league.

If you ask me, this speaks volumes of how poorly the league has been run.

People use that 3.3 billion figure as an indictment towards Bettman and co. To earn unprecedented revenue and still be stuck in this predicament regardless should be more of a point of embarrassment for the league at this point.

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So keep on hating on Bettman because all your internet buddies and clueless bloggers hate him.
By all means, keep defending him for no good reason while the NHL continues to die under his watch

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11-27-2012, 07:08 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
At least Bettman didn't let the players get away with playing nearly an entire season and then cancelling the playoffs. That is the difference. The players suffered more than the fans or the owners. That gave them the incentive to get back to the bargaining table and get something done.

No professional sports league will ever start a season without a CBA in place. Donald Fehr is the man to give the credit to for that.
You're right about that but remember the last time the players did strike in the NHL was in 1992 (less than a year before bettman arrived) right before the playoffs. Now because of that leagues agree with the PA to extend the CBA for another year; the NFL's was extended 3 times prior to the 2011 threat of a lockout.

As mentioned compare the percentage of games missed under Bettman in the NHL vs the same in the NHL/MLB for Fehr. Also people tend to overlook the fact that the one scheduled CBA ending in Bettmans tenure which did not end in a lockout was also a disaster; the 1994 CBA was supposed to end in 2000 but willfully extended due to the ill advised 4 team expansion.

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Old
11-27-2012, 09:24 PM
  #114
Gormo
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And your evidence that this would not have happened under another commissioner is....

You could just as easily say that it's the PA that's gone round the bend. The CBA is a two party deal, and neither one of those parties shares excessive credit or blame when there's a tough fight in the negotiations.

And even with the lockouts, the league is still WAAAAY better off than it was pre-Bettman, so bear that in mind.
The NHL is a joke.

I dont deal with hypotheticals, I compare the NHL to other professional sports.

The ones who want themselves to be taken seriously usually take care of these kinds of problems before they result in lost games and revenue.

Theres plenty of blame to go around, but Bettman deserves a generous portion because he never seems to have the slightest idea on how to deal with/avert these kinds of problems in spite of how long he has held his job. He is simply awful at labor negotiations.

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