I think Ballard is worth a second rounder, I think Raymond is worth a lower second rounder, and the second I included. I value that package as three second round picks. Washington is one team that could use the depth those players would provide.
I think Ballard is worth a second rounder, I think Raymond is worth a lower second rounder, and the second I included. I value that package as three second round picks. Washington is one team that could use the depth those players would provide.
Do you think the player that was ranked 2nd overall on several lists would go for 3 2nds?
Heck, would you even trade a regular 11th overall for 3 2nds?
I think Ballard is worth a second rounder, I think Raymond is worth a lower second rounder, and the second I included. I value that package as three second round picks.
Man it's a good thing we don't have to deal with that line of thinking for Luongo proposals.
Do you think the player that was ranked 2nd overall on several lists would go for 3 2nds?
Heck, would you even trade a regular 11th overall for 3 2nds?
Would I trade the 11th overall for three second round picks. Yep I'd do that.
Hard to say what lists Forsberg was second overall on (other than central scouting Euro list) because he went 11th. We know he was not second on at least nine teams.
The last 12 11th overall picks:
2000 - Pavel Vorobiev - BUST
2001 - Fredrik Sjostrom - BUST
2002 - Keith Ballard - NHL
2003 - Jeff Carter - STAR
2004 - Lauri Tukonen - BUST
2005 - Anze Kopitar - STAR
2006 - Jonathan Bernier - NHL
2007 - Brandon Sutter - NHL
2008 - Kyle Beach - Looking BUST-y
2009 - Ryan Ellis - NHL
2010 - Jack Campbell - PROSPECT
2011 - Duncan Siemens - PROSPECT
I'd say the average is a second liner or second pairing D.
Last edited by ginner classic: 11-27-2012 at 11:21 PM.
Would I trade the 11th overall for three second round picks. Yep I'd do that.
Hard to say what lists Forsberg was second overall on (other than central scouting Euro list) because he went 11th. We know he was not second on at least nine teams.
The last 12 11th overall picks:
2000 - Pavel Vorobiev - BUST
2001 - Fredrik Sjostrom - BUST
2002 - Keith Ballard - NHL
2003 - Jeff Carter - STAR
2004 - Lauri Tukonen - BUST
2005 - Anze Kopitar - STAR
2006 - Jonathan Bernier - NHL
2007 - Brandon Sutter - NHL
2008 - Kyle Beach - Looking BUST-y
2009 - Ryan Ellis - NHL
2010 - Jack Campbell - PROSPECT
2011 - Duncan Siemens - PROSPECT
I'd say the average is a second liner or second pairing D.
And the average second rounder doesn't make the NHL. So what? And Raymond is an upcoming UFA and Ballard uses up a lot of valuable cap space.
Would you trade Kassian for say, Macarthur, Komisarek and a 2nd?
And the average second rounder doesn't make the NHL. So what? And Raymond is an upcoming UFA and Ballard uses up a lot of valuable cap space.
Would you trade Kassian for say, Macarthur, Komisarek and a 2nd?
(Ballard > Komi but Forsberg > Kassian)
If I had 5 NHL calibre D, and not much on the wings, I'd trade a 2nd rounder for Macarthur. Komisarek is a non starter. He's bad.
I'm not totally sure how to value Raymond....but some deals to think about:
2012 - Johny Oduya for a 2nd and 3rd round pick
2012 - Andrei Kostitsyn for a 2nd round pick and conditional 5th
2012 - Bobrovsky for a 2nd, a 4th and another 4th
2012 - Lindback for a 2nd, another 2nd and a 3rd
2012 - Visnovsky for a 2nd round pick
I don't have a list of draft floor trades of picks but I'd be interested to see what teams trading out of the first over the years got back in picks later on.
If I had 5 NHL calibre D, and not much on the wings, I'd trade a 2nd rounder for Macarthur. Komisarek is a non starter. He's bad.
I'm not totally sure how to value Raymond....but some deals to think about:
2012 - Johny Oduya for a 2nd and 3rd round pick
2012 - Andrei Kostitsyn for a 2nd round pick and conditional 5th
2012 - Bobrovsky for a 2nd, a 4th and another 4th
2012 - Lindback for a 2nd, another 2nd and a 3rd
2012 - Visnovsky for a 2nd round pick
I don't have a list of draft floor trades of picks but I'd be interested to see what teams trading out of the first over the years got back in picks later on.
Why don't you look at the amount of times that a high pick was traded for 2 B players and a 2nd?
Time for another wackadoo armchair GM post. This is the $65m cap, all in for Ilya Kovalchuk edition.
Re-sign Alex Edler - max years at $5.5m per year, as front loaded as possible.
Re-sign Chris Higgins - 3 years $6m
Re-sign Max Lapierre - 2 years $2.5m
Re-sign Chris Tanev - 2 years $2.5m
Re-sign Jordan Schroeder - 2 years $1.5m one way
Trade Cory Schneider, David Booth, Keith Ballard for Ilya Kovalchuk, Henrik Tallinder
Trade Alex Burrows to Florida for Shawn Matthias and Alex Petrovic.
FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Ilya Kovalchuk ($6.667m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Nicklas Jensen ($0.894m)
Chris Higgins ($2.000m) / Jordan Schroeder ($0.750m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Shawn Matthias ($0.852m) / Max Lapierre ($1.250m) / Dale Weise ($0.615m)
Alexandre Mallet ($0.925m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Alex Edler ($5.500m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Henrik Tallinder ($3.375m) / Chris Tanev ($1.250m)
Frank Corrado ($0.599m) / Alex Petrovic ($0.870m)
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
SALARY CAP: $65,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,750,236; BONUSES: $437,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $687,264
Time for another wackadoo armchair GM post. This is the $65m cap, all in for Ilya Kovalchuk edition.
Re-sign Alex Edler - max years at $5.5m per year, as front loaded as possible.
Re-sign Chris Higgins - 3 years $6m
Re-sign Max Lapierre - 2 years $2.5m
Re-sign Chris Tanev - 2 years $2.5m
Re-sign Jordan Schroeder - 2 years $1.5m one way
Trade Cory Schneider, David Booth, Keith Ballard for Ilya Kovalchuk, Henrik Tallinder
Trade Alex Burrows to Florida for Shawn Matthias and Alex Petrovic.
FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Ilya Kovalchuk ($6.667m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Nicklas Jensen ($0.894m)
Chris Higgins ($2.000m) / Jordan Schroeder ($0.750m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Shawn Matthias ($0.852m) / Max Lapierre ($1.250m) / Dale Weise ($0.615m)
Alexandre Mallet ($0.925m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Alex Edler ($5.500m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Henrik Tallinder ($3.375m) / Chris Tanev ($1.250m)
Frank Corrado ($0.599m) / Alex Petrovic ($0.870m)
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
SALARY CAP: $65,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,750,236; BONUSES: $437,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $687,264
Just two small problems: The "what would you trade for Kovalchuk" thread is based on the premise that they can't afford his salary/contract. Taking Booth, Ballard and even Schneider is about even with what Kovalchuk and Tallinder make.
Second is why trade Burrows? Burrows for Mattias and Petrovic? We get screwed. If we're dumping cap, have them keep Mattias, sub in Mallet in his spot and bring up another cheap prospect/winger (ie Rodin on call ups) and see if someone will take Tallinder for a Petrovic-calibre defender at that cap hit. Jensen can spend another year developing unless he blows us away. -Mattias, -Tallinder, -Jensen and +minimum wage winger, and we can keep Burrows. I view Burrows as invaluable.
Well rather then "crap on but not create" frame of mind, our friend Sully1410 offered up Kane, Burmistrov, Klingberg/Kosmachuk, their 1st and 2nd this year for a UFA Edler and Schneider (although I feel we could probably send Luongo if we drop a prospect and a second if that's the mood of the room). This is only if Edler isn't happy returning at the same rate others have signed for.
Just two small problems: The "what would you trade for Kovalchuk" thread is based on the premise that they can't afford his salary/contract. Taking Booth, Ballard and even Schneider is about even with what Kovalchuk and Tallinder make.
When they (in this scenario) acquire David Booth, Keith Ballard and Cory Schneider the total owed to those three players is $26.15m over two seasons.
Kovalchuk alone is owed $22.6m over those same two seasons, with Henrik Tallinder's $3.5m bringing the Devils cap commitments up to the same level as the three Canucks'.
So they are getting three players over two years for the cost of one player for one year and another player for two. Nevermind the three more years at $10m or more for Kovalchuk, plus another at $7m, another at $4m, etc.
The deal would solve their impending goaltending problem and would remove a colossal financial liability from a franchise that is strapped for cash.
Quote:
Second is why trade Burrows? Burrows for Mattias and Petrovic? We get screwed. If we're dumping cap, have them keep Mattias, sub in Mallet in his spot and bring up another cheap prospect/winger (ie Rodin on call ups) and see if someone will take Tallinder for a Petrovic-calibre defender at that cap hit. Jensen can spend another year developing unless he blows us away. -Mattias, -Tallinder, -Jensen and +minimum wage winger, and we can keep Burrows. I view Burrows as invaluable.
Burrows is dumped for cap space, with four high end forwards he is less needed and his $4.5m goes to keep a modicum of depth on the roster (Higgins, Lapierre).
You can dump Tallinder but any situation in which the Canucks defense is two injuries away from a player like Frank Corrado being in the top four is asking for disaster.
Anybody have an idea for a 2013 roster with a 60m cap?
Caveat: Re-sign Edler, Higgins and Lapierre.
I have an idea of what the roster could look like, but there are a couple of holes left to fill (I have it set as the cap at $65 mil, but it would just mean that we couldn't sign a top 6 winger or #4-5 d-man if it was $60 mil).
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alex Burrows ($4.500m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Chris Higgins ($2.350m) / Jordan Schroeder ($0.800m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
xxx (???) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.250m) / Dale Weise ($0.700m)
Alex Edler ($5.500m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
xxx (???) / Chris Tanev ($1.000m)
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
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CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion) SALARY CAP: $65,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,220,000; BONUSES: $0 CAP SPACE (18-man roster): $6,780,000
I don't get why people are putting up rosters with Schneider being traded, it's fairly obvious that Luongo is the one that will be traded before the 2013-14 season.
Anywho, the roster I posted above is if we acquire prospects + picks + upcoming UFAs for Luongo. If we get a roster player signed past this season, then it would obviously be different.
And Ballard would have to be dumped. It's definitely worth it to keep Edler.
Anybody have an idea for a 2013 roster with a 60m cap?
Caveat: Re-sign Edler, Higgins and Lapierre.
Drop Ballard and Booth for futures, and that's 8.45+goalie off the books. Give Higgins 2.5ish, Lapierre 1.25-1.5 ish, and Edler for 5-5.5 ish (God willing).
Let Alberts, Malhotra, Raymond and any other UFA wanting more then bargain basement prices walk.
We are currently at 67,768,333. Drop the 8.45, drop 1.225 for Alberts, 2.275 for Raymond, and 2.5 for Malhotra and thats another 6 million.
Subtract Higgins, Lapierre and Edler's current salaries, and add the new cap hits (I've done it at maximum).
We have 57,568,333, and can add in Jensen, Corrado, Connauton, Sauve or any three others (Kassian and Tanev are already on the roster...we need 2-3 defenders and assuming our UFA forwards like Ebbett, Volpatti and Weise resign similar to where they are, as they are on the cap geek roster, maybe one forward), keep both Luongo and Schneider, until one is traded, and still be under the cap. No biggy. We clear more if we take futures back for Luongo.
I have an idea of what the roster could look like, but there are a couple of holes left to fill (I have it set as the cap at $65 mil, but it would just mean that we couldn't sign a top 6 winger or #4-5 d-man if it was $60 mil).
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alex Burrows ($4.500m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Chris Higgins ($2.350m) / Jordan Schroeder ($0.800m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
xxx (???) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.250m) / Dale Weise ($0.700m)
Alex Edler ($5.500m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
xxx (???) / Chris Tanev ($1.000m)
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
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CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion) SALARY CAP: $65,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,220,000; BONUSES: $0 CAP SPACE (18-man roster): $6,780,000
I don't get why people are putting up rosters with Schneider being traded, it's fairly obvious that Luongo is the one that will be traded before the 2013-14 season.
Anywho, the roster I posted above is if we acquire prospects + picks + upcoming UFAs for Luongo. If we get a roster player signed past this season, then it would obviously be different.
And Ballard would have to be dumped. It's definitely worth it to keep Edler.
So with Edler taking 5m instead of 5.5m, that's essentially 57.5m cap payroll. And you still need to add 4 more players for roughly 2.5m (assuming a 60m salary cap)? That's a tight fit. No wonder they want Edler back at 4.6m...
It's going to be impossible to come up with a better roster by cutting millions of dollars in spending, but this is the best I could do.
Trade Luongo for Shore, Petrovic
Trade Booth for Greening
Trade Ballard for pick
FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
Colin Greening ($0.817m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Chris Higgins ($2.500m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.350m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Nicklas Jensen ($0.894m) / Drew Shore ($1.100m) / Steve Pinizzotto ($0.600m)
/ Dale Weise ($0.615m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Alexander Edler ($5.500m) / Chris Tanev ($1.250m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Alex Petrovic ($0.870m)
Kevin Connauton ($0.900m) /
GOALTENDERS
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
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CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,690,833; BONUSES: $735,000
CAP SPACE (25-man roster): $12,244,167
Last edited by StringerBell: 12-14-2012 at 02:54 PM.
Booth is not going to be traded, and quite frankly he brings fair value for his contract. He has qualities that are attractive in today's NHL. He's built like an ox, a powerful skater, and plays a power-forward game while chipping in 25-30 goals a season.
Booth is not going to be traded, and quite frankly he brings fair value for his contract. He has qualities that are attractive in today's NHL. He's built like an ox, a powerful skater, and plays a power-forward game while chipping in 25-30 goals a season.
^ This. I can't believe some of you guys are dumping him. He is still a capable top 6 forward.
Well I've yet to see anyone make a 22 man roster under a $60 million dollar cap with both Booth and Edler. It'll be very, very hard to pull off, but if someone can figure it out then props to them. Higgins would be a definite casualty though, and personally I value him more than Booth.
Well I've yet to see anyone make a 22 man roster under a $60 million dollar cap with both Booth and Edler. It'll be very, very hard to pull off, but if someone can figure it out then props to them. Higgins would be a definite casualty though, and personally I value him more than Booth.
Personally, I think there is no way they drop the cap down to $60 mil next year without also reducing the cap hits on players already signed to contracts.
I think it'll likely drop down to ~$65 mil, then maybe $62.5 mil the year after, and then $60 mil.
Well I've yet to see anyone make a 22 man roster under a $60 million dollar cap with both Booth and Edler. It'll be very, very hard to pull off, but if someone can figure it out then props to them. Higgins would be a definite casualty though, and personally I value him more than Booth.
Perhaps Edler at 4.6m gets it done? It really depends on what kind of depth is retained, but I think they can keep Booth if they go cheap on the rest of the roster.
You also have to go for cheaper options instead of allowing prospects space on the roster, as you are looking at 200k to 300k differences.
