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11-28-2012, 01:59 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Playing on the first or second line doesn't make one #1C or #2C, IMO. Morrison and Rucchin were essentially tweeners who were along the ride with great wingers. It shows the value of being able to develop chemistry with your wingers, and players who are able to adapt to their linemates have a better chance to be successful, in spite of their natural skillsets. I do not believe adaptability is one of Grabo's strengths.
So Grabo is basically a tweener. Right?

Chemistry is just having the right guys beside you.

Who's to say a Parise - Grabo - Hemsky line doesnt light up the league and see Grabo get 75pts?

Is Grabo a #1 center in the sense of Sundin where he was what made the line a #1 line? NO.

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11-28-2012, 02:44 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
So Grabo is basically a tweener. Right?

Chemistry is just having the right guys beside you.

Who's to say a Parise - Grabo - Hemsky line doesnt light up the league and see Grabo get 75pts?

Is Grabo a #1 center in the sense of Sundin where he was what made the line a #1 line? NO.
I didn't say he was a tweener. I said that there are a lot of better options around the league for #2C I'd rather have, making Grabo an average (and overpaid) #2C in my eyes.

Chemistry is about linemates fulfilling roles to complement each other. If the line has no puck retriever, or net traffic, it's offensive production will suffer. If they don't have a sniper, but is made up of crash and bangers, or playmakers, their produciton will suffer. If a player is able to fill multiple roles to an extent, it gives them more flexibility of the type of players they may mesh with. This is the main reason Bozak can play well with no matter who's on his line.

If you're able to find Grabo the ideal linemates, and they get the great icetime, he could potentially produce 75 points. With more versatile players, though, finding those "ideal linemates" becomes easier, and it's more likely that the line will perform well. This is what makes the likes of Getzlaf, who has excellent vision, board presence, and can also crash the net if needed, so valuable.

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11-28-2012, 03:04 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
I didn't say he was a tweener. I said that there are a lot of better options around the league for #2C I'd rather have, making Grabo an average (and overpaid) #2C in my eyes.

Chemistry is about linemates fulfilling roles to complement each other. If the line has no puck retriever, or net traffic, it's offensive production will suffer. If they don't have a sniper, but is made up of crash and bangers, or playmakers, their produciton will suffer. If a player is able to fill multiple roles to an extent, it gives them more flexibility of the type of players they may mesh with. This is the main reason Bozak can play well with no matter who's on his line.

If you're able to find Grabo the ideal linemates, and they get the great icetime, he could potentially produce 75 points. With more versatile players, though, finding those "ideal linemates" becomes easier, and it's more likely that the line will perform well. This is what makes the likes of Getzlaf, who has excellent vision, board presence, and can also crash the net if needed, so valuable.
I don't think there a LOT of better options around the league.
Grabo stacks up pretty good against most of them. There are a few who are definitly ahead but like a I said above, those players have All-stars in front of them.



Grabo definitly is a hard one to build aline around since he isn't easily put into a category.

Parise and Hemsky might the right type. Grabo would be the #2 set-up man, the #2 sniper, the #2 defensive awareness, the #3 puck controller on the line. HE wouldn't be the go to guy for anything.

Well ya. Getzlaf has more facets to his game. That is why he is a #1 without question, while the best Grabo can hope for is Kariya-Rucchin-Selanne type scenario if he were to play on the top line.

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11-28-2012, 12:13 PM
  #154
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I'd trade him for 1st round picks of 2014 or a big centre. I like Grabovski but we can honestly do better for a second line centre.

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11-28-2012, 12:26 PM
  #155
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I'd trade him for 1st round picks of 2014 or a big centre. I like Grabovski but we can honestly do better for a second line centre.
No, actually, we can't do better.

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11-28-2012, 12:29 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
I'd trade him for 1st round picks of 2014 or a big centre. I like Grabovski but we can honestly do better for a second line centre.
He's worth multiple 1st rounders but isn't good enough to be a #2 Centre?

How can the Leafs do better?

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11-28-2012, 01:28 PM
  #157
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He's worth multiple 1st rounders but isn't good enough to be a #2 Centre?

How can the Leafs do better?
Early first round pick* Like a top 10 pick.

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11-28-2012, 01:42 PM
  #158
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Early first round pick* Like a top 10 pick.
Why would any Team give up a top 10 pick for a 3rd line Centre?

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11-28-2012, 01:47 PM
  #159
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Why would any Team give up a top 10 pick for a 3rd line Centre?
I never said he's a third line centre. He's still a decent player. He's an established second line centre. I only mean Grabovski is expendable for us because we have Bozak and Kadri (may be able to fight for a top six spot). A top ten pick does not always mean they can establish themselves in the NHL. However 2014 draft looks good, so I'd trade some guys to get a better chance at Connor McDavid.

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11-28-2012, 04:40 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
I'd trade him for 1st round picks of 2014 or a big centre. I like Grabovski but we can honestly do better for a second line centre.
We can honestly do better for a 1st line center, Grabo is fine where he is.

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11-28-2012, 04:47 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
I never said he's a third line centre. He's still a decent player. He's an established second line centre. I only mean Grabovski is expendable for us because we have Bozak and Kadri (may be able to fight for a top six spot). A top ten pick does not always mean they can establish themselves in the NHL. However 2014 draft looks good, so I'd trade some guys to get a better chance at Connor McDavid.


I like Kadri, but he is nowhere near what Grabo is for us. I'd say Kadri is at least 2 years away from being able to show he can take over. Bozak, while not as talented as Grabo wouldn't be a bad option for #2, but then we have no one to play #1, hell we don't even have someone to play #1 right now. Trading Grabo for picks destroys any center depth that we have right now.

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11-28-2012, 06:41 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
I never said he's a third line centre. He's still a decent player. He's an established second line centre. I only mean Grabovski is expendable for us because we have Bozak and Kadri (may be able to fight for a top six spot). A top ten pick does not always mean they can establish themselves in the NHL. However 2014 draft looks good, so I'd trade some guys to get a better chance at Connor McDavid.
If Kadri becomes as good as Grabo at some point in his career I'll be very happy. At this point hes not even close to being able to replace Grabo

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11-28-2012, 08:20 PM
  #163
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I like Kadri, but he is nowhere near what Grabo is for us. I'd say Kadri is at least 2 years away from being able to show he can take over. Bozak, while not as talented as Grabo wouldn't be a bad option for #2, but then we have no one to play #1, hell we don't even have someone to play #1 right now. Trading Grabo for picks destroys any center depth that we have right now.
I think it depends on who Kadri's linemates are. He needs really good shooters to be a good centre because he's a playmaker. Hopefully JVR is as good a shooter as I hear him to be. Kadri has improved defensively and hasn't been given a proper chance to crack the lineup. What I mean is sometime next year before trade deadline, we trade him if someone is there to fill his spot.

If we sign Getzlaf or a number one centre this offseason then Grabovski is expendable since Bozak can play 2nd line. Kadri might be ready for that position also (as he's versatile for centre and wing position).

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11-28-2012, 08:45 PM
  #164
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I think it depends on who Kadri's linemates are. He needs really good shooters to be a good centre because he's a playmaker. Hopefully JVR is as good a shooter as I hear him to be. Kadri has improved defensively and hasn't been given a proper chance to crack the lineup. What I mean is sometime next year before trade deadline, we trade him if someone is there to fill his spot.

If we sign Getzlaf or a number one centre this offseason then Grabovski is expendable since Bozak can play 2nd line. Kadri might be ready for that position also (as he's versatile for centre and wing position).
Getzlaf doesnt make Grabo expendable. What it does is give us a legit number one, a legit #2 in Grabo, and lets Bozak play third line where he belongs. I like Bozak, and im in favour of keeping him, but he is not a top 6 forward. Hes a third liner with the ability to keep up with Phil Kessel, and for that reason he should be kept around in case of an injury situation.

Teams win with strength down the middle. Moving Grabo isnt what we need to do.

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11-28-2012, 11:39 PM
  #165
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If Kadri becomes as good as Grabo at some point in his career I'll be very happy. At this point hes not even close to being able to replace Grabo
He's already as good, if not better at some aspects of the game (stickhandling, grit, vision, net drive), just needs to round out the other parts (strength on the puck, timing in the NHL, shooting, faceoffs). Unless they convert Kadri back to a center, he's not competing against Grabo for a job, though. He's going up against Grabo's playmaker winger: Mac.

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11-29-2012, 04:59 AM
  #166
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He's already as good, if not better at some aspects of the game (stickhandling, grit, vision, net drive),
lol no.

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11-29-2012, 06:05 AM
  #167
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lol no.
lol yes.

Thank you for your contribution.

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11-29-2012, 07:31 AM
  #168
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He's already as good, if not better at some aspects of the game (stickhandling, grit, vision, net drive), just needs to round out the other parts (strength on the puck, timing in the NHL, shooting, faceoffs). Unless they convert Kadri back to a center, he's not competing against Grabo for a job, though. He's going up against Grabo's playmaker winger: Mac.
Kadri might look as good, and in some ways better, but there is no judges in hockey awarding style points. Ultimately results are all that counts, and Kadri hasn't proven to be as good in any way as Grabovski yet. He might prove to be in time... or not.

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11-29-2012, 08:00 AM
  #169
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Kadri might look as good, and in some ways better, but there is no judges in hockey awarding style points. Ultimately results are all that counts, and Kadri hasn't proven to be as good in any way as Grabovski yet. He might prove to be in time... or not.
Agreed. Kadri's next step offensively will have to be to adjust to the speed of the game more. Figuring out when to use what move. It's a lot easier to pull moves off successfully during a shootout than it is during the game. He still has more than time to put it all together, especially when he starts getting regular icetime with the Leafs.

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11-29-2012, 08:21 AM
  #170
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Still on Grabo, instead of tearing him down I will list his positives.

Skates well, handles the puck well. Scores about 25 goals a year.

That's it.

Can't think of another thing.

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11-29-2012, 08:31 AM
  #171
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Agreed. Kadri's next step offensively will have to be to adjust to the speed of the game more. Figuring out when to use what move. It's a lot easier to pull moves off successfully during a shootout than it is during the game. He still has more than time to put it all together, especially when he starts getting regular icetime with the Leafs.
One thing Kadri has that Grabo lacks since he came into this league, is playmaking ability, ice vision, Ice Q.

Grabo can skate but he can overhandle the puck, he is tunnel visioned. It's no surprise he has never had more than 29 assists a season.

The only thing Kadri lacks is experience, he has far more attractive traits in a player than Grabo.

The fact is Grabo has never been able to elevate his wingers, infact take him away from Kule and Mac, who are often regarded as baggage for Grabs. He struggles to produce.

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11-29-2012, 08:49 AM
  #172
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One thing Kadri has that Grabo lacks since he came into this league, is playmaking ability, ice vision, Ice Q.

Grabo can skate but he can overhandle the puck, he is tunnel visioned. It's no surprise he has never had more than 29 assists a season.

The only thing Kadri lacks is experience, he has far more attractive traits in a player than Grabo.

The fact is Grabo has never been able to elevate his wingers, infact take him away from Kule and Mac, who are often regarded as baggage for Grabs. He struggles to produce.
You seem to think that 29 assists is bad.

Last year Grabovski had 28, and that was good for 41st among centers in the league. Only 5 of those assists were on the powerplay, putting him at 24th league-wide in even strength assists. And the only person ahead of him on that list that played fewer games was Datsyuk, who played in 4 fewer games.

That's one less even strength assist than Stamkos and Brad Richards. Three less than Getzlaf. 5 less than Eric Staal and Datsyuk. Only 10 players had 30 or more even strength assists.

The year before he was 23rd in even strength assists in the league amongst centers. Tied with Mike Richards. One less than Joe Thornton. Two less than Bergeron and Eric Staal. 3 less than Stamkos, all these players within 1 GP of each other.

In conclusion, you demonstrably have no clue.

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11-29-2012, 09:12 AM
  #173
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You seem to think that 29 assists is bad.

Last year Grabovski had 28, and that was good for 41st among centers in the league. Only 5 of those assists were on the powerplay, putting him at 24th league-wide in even strength assists. And the only person ahead of him on that list that played fewer games was Datsyuk, who played in 4 fewer games.

That's one less even strength assist than Stamkos and Brad Richards. Three less than Getzlaf. 5 less than Eric Staal and Datsyuk. Only 10 players had 30 or more even strength assists.

The year before he was 23rd in even strength assists in the league amongst centers. Tied with Mike Richards. One less than Joe Thornton. Two less than Bergeron and Eric Staal. 3 less than Stamkos, all these players within 1 GP of each other.

In conclusion, you demonstrably have no clue.
The guys you mention all bring ALOT more intangibles to the table than Grabo.

Regardless I think you missed the point or chose to ignore it, Grabo's career high in assists is 29. Not a total one would cite as a good playmaker of any renown. Now since you have demonstrated a knack for statistical manipulation. Look up the career high assists for the players you cited as comparables.

You might clue in then.

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11-29-2012, 09:27 AM
  #174
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So now according to Grabo apologists, PP stats don't count. If Grabo had any semblance how to use his teammates as say a Joe Thornton does, maybe PP stats would count to the Grabo apologists.

Unbelievable.

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11-29-2012, 09:38 AM
  #175
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The guys you mention all bring ALOT more intangibles to the table than Grabo.

Regardless I think you missed the point or chose to ignore it, Grabo's career high in assists is 29. Not a total one would cite as a good playmaker of any renown. Now since you have demonstrated a knack for statistical manipulation. Look up the career high assists for the players you cited as comparables.

You might clue in then.
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
So now according to Grabo apologists, PP stats don't count. If Grabo had any semblance how to use his teammates as say a Joe Thornton does, maybe PP stats would count to the Grabo apologists.

Unbelievable.

And if you guys are expecting Grabovski to be a Joe Thornton then give your heads a shake!!! I guess to you guys unless he puts up as many points as a Thornton being on a second line he's not an effective player.

The poster was using players as a benchmark to demonstrate there are area's where Grabs is a good player and not as bad as people make him out to be. Nowhere did he say he was as good as those players!! PP points can inflate/deflate a players stats depending on how much PP time they receive. I think 29 assists for a #2C is very good and that number may have been increased had Kulemin not slumped. I'm not saying Grabo is the best center in the game but he is a very good player and will definitely improve on those numbers. He had his slumps last year and needs to find more consistency for sure but I am positive he will.

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