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CBA Talk II: Shut up and give me YOUR money!

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11-27-2012, 01:41 AM
  #801
Wisp
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Mediator is just to burn time off the clock and make it look like they're doing something.

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11-27-2012, 01:49 AM
  #802
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You should totally do that. It's almost December and this team hasn't won one game yet. It's clearly not Luongo's fault this time around - he hasn't even let in a single goal yet. The team's record is unacceptable and Coach V should pay the price.
The real problem is the PP. They haven't scored a single goal yet this season. Not to mention the Sedins, they are stil to record their first point. I think it's time to trade them to Toronto for Lombardi and a 3rd.

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11-27-2012, 01:52 AM
  #803
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The real problem is the PP. They haven't scored a single goal yet this season. Not to mention the Sedins, they are stil to record their first point. I think it's time to trade them to Toronto for Lombardi and a 3rd.
The whole team has been a huge no-show, really disappointing.

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11-27-2012, 04:07 AM
  #804
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Mediator is just to burn time off the clock and make it look like they're doing something.
The mediator is there to take the blame if a deal goes through. When Fehr has to explain the deal to the NHLPA membership, he can point at the mediator and say it was him that gave the owners this or that concession. Bettman can go to the owners and likewise blame the mediator for concessions that he fought against giving. A deal can be brokered without either side coming out looking weak.

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11-27-2012, 05:06 AM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Hammer79 View Post
The mediator is there to take the blame if a deal goes through. When Fehr has to explain the deal to the NHLPA membership, he can point at the mediator and say it was him that gave the owners this or that concession. Bettman can go to the owners and likewise blame the mediator for concessions that he fought against giving. A deal can be brokered without either side coming out looking weak.
Either way as long as there is hockey this season, I'll take it.

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11-27-2012, 06:36 AM
  #806
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I'd like to see the owners hire a moderate ex-player and give him a brief of how much $ and what outcomes. The players hire a business man, maybe an ex-owner or ex-gm and give him their brief.

Then tell them to go off and negotiate for a couple of days and come up with a CBA proposal that is workable. Put these CBAs to the NHL/NHLPA.

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11-27-2012, 07:42 AM
  #807
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Are they overpaid more than Comcast? Or the reprehensible Philip Anschutz? People that blame the players for being overpaid really just don't get it. The players are being paid a fair share of revenues, which are based off of ticket/merchandising sales that are set by the owners. The players would make less if the owners weren't trying to make more money.

There may in fact be something on a philosophical level that is morally banktup in Western economies, but that's an entirely separate discussion. For the purposes of this discussion, it amazes me that people throw out these "you're overpaid!" arguments at players while ignoring owners (not you specifically, but as a rule). It's like people are secretly annoyed that players make money but think the owners are some Citizen Kane-esque heroes of capitalism, some ubermensches that deserve to reap insane profits with nary a sideways glance tossed their way. They're not the ones out there wobbling around after they get concussions, or having millions of people heckle them after a playoff meltdown (see Luongo, Roberto).

Amazing.
And if you have seen my other quotes on here, you know that I think Batman and the owners for the most part are a bunch of selfish ******. My point stands; most of the players would play (and many are) for a fraction of what they get in the NHL. I am offended by todays ticket prices, yet I am hesitant to cancel my season tickets because they have been in the family for 40 years. Fehr is planning the CBA around increased revenues ... in other words, Batman you are not screwing the fans enough.

And speaking of Batman, my favorite Batman joke:

If the answer is Cockrobin,what is the question. Whats that up my ass, Batman? It sort of applies to this whole process.

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11-27-2012, 09:03 AM
  #808
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And if you have seen my other quotes on here, you know that I think Batman and the owners for the most part are a bunch of selfish ******. My point stands; most of the players would play (and many are) for a fraction of what they get in the NHL. I am offended by todays ticket prices, yet I am hesitant to cancel my season tickets because they have been in the family for 40 years. Fehr is planning the CBA around increased revenues ... in other words, Batman you are not screwing the fans enough.

And speaking of Batman, my favorite Batman joke:

If the answer is Cockrobin,what is the question. Whats that up my ass, Batman? It sort of applies to this whole process.
What would happen if the players and owners reduced their take to a fraction of the revenue they bring in currently, and slashed ticket prices accordingly? Tickets would be next to impossible to get at face value. You'd have to enter a lottery to win the chance to buy season tickets at heavily discounted prices that almost anyone can afford. Either that, or you can wait on a waitlist for a decade or two or hope that you inherit the tickets. The only way to acquire tickets for single games would be from scalpers or other re-sellers at significant mark-ups.

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11-27-2012, 09:10 AM
  #809
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What would happen if the players and owners reduced their take to a fraction of the revenue they bring in currently, and slashed ticket prices accordingly? Tickets would be next to impossible to get at face value. You'd have to enter a lottery to win the chance to buy season tickets at heavily discounted prices that almost anyone can afford. Either that, or you can wait on a waitlist for a decade or two or hope that you inherit the tickets. The only way to acquire tickets for single games would be from scalpers or other re-sellers at significant mark-ups.
In a few markets. But are you really suggesting that lower ticket prices would result in higher scalper prices. Anyhow, ticket prices should be somewhat similar market to market ... but you can take a family to a game in Pho for half the price of one of my seats.

And its unrealistic to think that ticket prices are ever going to significantly drop in VCR area,

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11-27-2012, 09:51 AM
  #810
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Originally Posted by billvanseattle View Post
In a few markets. But are you really suggesting that lower ticket prices would result in higher scalper prices. Anyhow, ticket prices should be somewhat similar market to market ... but you can take a family to a game in Pho for half the price of one of my seats.

And its unrealistic to think that ticket prices are ever going to significantly drop in VCR area,
Supply and demand always kicks in. If the teams tried to help out the average fan by dramatically lowering prices below what the market can bear, then yes scalpers would charge what they could get for the tickets. Why sell them to this guy for $40 if another guy is willing to pay $120? Want to buy them from the ticket booth at face value? Better camp in line for a couple days like those people who want to be the 'first' to see a new Star Wars movie or buy an iPhone 5.

Teams charge what the market can bear. The market demand is weak in Glendale, so they know that they can't charge what they would in a hot Canadian market. Demand is so weak, that if it wasn't for Bettman's intervention that team would be in another market. The NHL might have had this pipe-dream about southern TV markets, but they are getting hit hard by weak demand for the tickets.

If TV contracts, brought about by a nation-wide footprint including the south, are really that important to the league, they need to increase revenue sharing. Lowering HRR share to the players will only allow these teams to lose slightly less money, while the profitable teams rake in record profits. The NHL will be back, cap in hand, to the NHLPA once this deal expires too.

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11-27-2012, 10:10 AM
  #811
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OL thanks for explaining the first hour of economics 101 to me I had forgotten the bleeding obvious.

Wasn't looking to debate, I was also stating the bleeding obvious. There are 6-7 markets in the NHL where tickets are always going to be hard to come by, and sadly, VCR is now on of the worst. I could make a ton of money by scalping my tickets; instead I sell them to friends.

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11-27-2012, 10:13 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by Hammer79 View Post
The mediator is there to take the blame if a deal goes through. When Fehr has to explain the deal to the NHLPA membership, he can point at the mediator and say it was him that gave the owners this or that concession. Bettman can go to the owners and likewise blame the mediator for concessions that he fought against giving. A deal can be brokered without either side coming out looking weak.
Yeah but it's non-binding so that isn't particularly true.

Basically (the cynical approach is that) the mediator is going to tell both sides that they are being obstinate babies and that they need to come to terms with giving up this or that concession and each side will decide that they are better off refusing to accept the mediator's input and hoping the other side crumbles than actually making a deal.

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11-27-2012, 10:41 AM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
Mediator is just to burn time off the clock and make it look like they're doing something.
To some extent, yes, but it certainly cannot hurt to include an outside perspective. Of course once said mediator determines a "winner." You know one side will call fowl, while the other feels a sense of renewed justification.

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11-27-2012, 11:08 AM
  #814
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Yeah but it's non-binding so that isn't particularly true.

Basically (the cynical approach is that) the mediator is going to tell both sides that they are being obstinate babies and that they need to come to terms with giving up this or that concession and each side will decide that they are better off refusing to accept the mediator's input and hoping the other side crumbles than actually making a deal.
heh-heh, what exactly have the owners offered to give up with this pending CBA over the old one? Offering to take back less than what they'd ideally want?

(note: nothing wrong with that if the entire "industry" is broke and in danger of folding)

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11-27-2012, 11:09 AM
  #815
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mediators seldom declare a winner. They try to find middle ground and recommend that they head to a place in between where they presently stand. The problem is the usual; both sides paint themselves into a corner where it looks like they have capitulated if they leave it .... a mediator allows both sides to move to the middle ground ....

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11-27-2012, 12:07 PM
  #816
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Originally Posted by billvanseattle View Post
mediators seldom declare a winner. They try to find middle ground and recommend that they head to a place in between where they presently stand. The problem is the usual; both sides paint themselves into a corner where it looks like they have capitulated if they leave it .... a mediator allows both sides to move to the middle ground ....

From how I see it the NHL has no intention of being anywhere near middle ground, they have an idea of what they want and think they can break the union to get it.

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11-27-2012, 12:07 PM
  #817
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Huge shouting match between Kypreos and MacLean on HockeyCentral right now (sportsnet). Loving it!

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11-27-2012, 12:21 PM
  #818
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heh-heh, what exactly have the owners offered to give up with this pending CBA over the old one? Offering to take back less than what they'd ideally want?

(note: nothing wrong with that if the entire "industry" is broke and in danger of folding)
Even when the industry was broken during the last work stoppage, the league still ultimately gave the players some concessions on contracting rights. Now, with the industry for the most part healthy, the league is attempting to pry all sorts of rights back from the players. But why?

What I don't understand is why this isn't an obvious point, and why more media types don't continue to ask the NHL why it's worth throwing away a hockey season for this. The revenue numbers show a pretty clear image of what's wrong with the league. So, for that matter, does Bettman's cagey language when he says "teams" are losing money. If you contrast this to his rhetoric during the last lock out, it's night and day.

The NHL deserves much more scorn and ridicule than it's receiving from NHL 'experts' who are scared to lose their insider tracks once the lockout is over. It's a pattern that's grown worse and worse over the years, to the point where very clear misappropriations of authority (see: Campbell, Colin) are white-washed by media types so as not to tip the apple cart.

I'm not sure there's a major sports league in the world with big name media so cloyingly, dishearteningly keen to suck up to the league they cover. It's embarrassing. Darren Dreger's Twitter feed might as well be endorsed by the NHL.

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11-27-2012, 01:09 PM
  #819
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I'm not sure there's a major sports league in the world with big name media so cloyingly, dishearteningly keen to suck up to the league they cover. It's embarrassing. Darren Dreger's Twitter feed might as well be endorsed by the NHL.

Best part of twitter today was somebody accusing Dreger for being an NHLPA shill. I've now seen everything during this lockout.

It is kind of funny to see players turned media going to town for the NHLPA and see a lot of basic media guys stand behind the owners. Dreger seems the worst of the bunch, as he's even gotten into twitter fights over this lockout crap.

I'm just waiting for Brad May to drop somebody with a left hook on air.

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11-27-2012, 02:30 PM
  #820
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Best part of twitter today was somebody accusing Dreger for being an NHLPA shill. I've now seen everything during this lockout.
Which is hilarious. Darren Dreger's tweets usually read like this:

"While there is some disagreement amongst hockey people about the path forward at this point, and the NHLPA thinks its made some headway by agreeing to [blah blah blah], the league doesn't think the PA has done enough, and that's something the PA will need to address. The league feels that [blah blah blah]."

It's just a reiteration of whatever pablum the league feeds him as their unofficial official response, with no filter or critical thinking done by Dreger whatsoever. He's more of a stenographer than a reporter.

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11-27-2012, 02:45 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by billvanseattle View Post
And if you have seen my other quotes on here, you know that I think Batman and the owners for the most part are a bunch of selfish ******. My point stands; most of the players would play (and many are) for a fraction of what they get in the NHL. I am offended by todays ticket prices, yet I am hesitant to cancel my season tickets because they have been in the family for 40 years. Fehr is planning the CBA around increased revenues ... in other words, Batman you are not screwing the fans enough.

And speaking of Batman, my favorite Batman joke:

If the answer is Cockrobin,what is the question. Whats that up my ass, Batman? It sort of applies to this whole process.
Ticket prices will never go down and everybody knows it (at least not in Canada where you have legitimate franchises that are INTENDED to make money (see Phoenix)). This is why I don't get people supporting the owners. There is NOTHING in it for you if the owners cut costs. The money goes into their pockets or to keep teams in pet markets going a few years more. It's an agreement to how a big load of profit gets shared by players and owners. Why do you care? You get nothing. The reason the owners would happily stay in a lockout forever is that it's a miniscule part of their investment portfolio. And there are no hockey fans involved at that level. They proved that in 2005 and are proving it again.
Like it or not, the players are prime time TV stars and should be paid as such. If the NHL were to die today (the best option), it would be replaced almost immediately in Canada (where hockey is so much bigger than the NHL) and the players would remain highly paid stars. The NHL is in the way. It's an League run by Americans for Americans. There is no passion or real motivation at the Board level. It's a sideshow.

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11-27-2012, 02:50 PM
  #822
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Huge shouting match between Kypreos and MacLean on HockeyCentral right now (sportsnet). Loving it!
That happens every other day.

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11-27-2012, 08:56 PM
  #823
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OL thanks for explaining the first hour of economics 101 to me I had forgotten the bleeding obvious.

Wasn't looking to debate, I was also stating the bleeding obvious. There are 6-7 markets in the NHL where tickets are always going to be hard to come by, and sadly, VCR is now on of the worst. I could make a ton of money by scalping my tickets; instead I sell them to friends.
Well from your previous statements; disgust at ticket prices, the players would take 20 cents on the dollar to play, and that planning around increased revenues is just a way for Bettman and Fehr to screw the fans, I don't think you should be that sarcastic about a reality check. You're not cancelling your season tickets, so obviously the cost isn't too much for you to bear.

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11-28-2012, 04:35 AM
  #824
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That happens every other day.
Starting at 3:25


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11-28-2012, 05:13 AM
  #825
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Starting at 3:25

Wow, I agree with Kypreos on something?

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