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2012 CBA Discussion Part IV (Lockout talk here)

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Old
11-27-2012, 06:37 PM
  #726
Kaoz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Excuse me for a few minutes. Gary Bettman said the last lockout was for affordable ticket prices. What happened? The ticket prices are not being rolled back with the players taking a 50-50 split. The ticket prices will continue to increase across the board. The owners will be making a ton. Revenue will continue to increase.

Big market teams will always have an advantage over smaller market teams. Hard cap or soft cap. The Dallas Cowboys don't operate on the same level as the Jacksonville Jaguars. The NFL has the purest hard cap system in pro sports. Biggest TV contracts. Revenue sharing. The teams are not equal footing. There is nothing in the NHL CBA designed to put the small market teams on the same footing as the big market teams.
Gary Bettman said the last lockout was because the NHL was in serious financial trouble and bleeding money. He wasn't wrong.

The NHL has actually been the league with talent most evenly spread out imo the past few years, but that's pure opinion. I honestly can't speak for baseball, but in the NBA you can simply buy a stacked team such as Boston, Miami, and now LA have done. It's comical, but not interesting to watch. At least it was a more even playing field for the NHL, now teams are struggling to afford high end players, and those players are moving to the high revenue markets... Nash and Richards to the Rangers for instance. In some form you'll never get rid of that, but at least putting those teams on an even level financially will give them a chance. They'd still have to turn the corner in regards to on-ice product but that would be a lot easier to do if you could afford to be competitive when the time was right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The players have offered a 50-50 split.

You're too hung on the guarantee. The players won't need that because revenue will continue to increase. The business will continue to grow. Even the NHL proposal from October was based on 5% growth which might be conservative. The CBC contract expires soon.

Revenue sharing. The PA proposed revenue sharing at $240M. The owners proposed $190M from $150M. Then it was increases to $200M. Why isn't it at $240M if the big market owners care so much about the suffering small market brethren? The PA had to get the NHL to up their offer on revenue sharing. Jim Dolan,Ed Snider,Molson and the guys in Toronto really care about the teams in Nashville,Phoenix,Florida and Columbus.
The players offered a 50/50 split but demanded near double the make whole figure the NHL was offering. Obviously that wasn't palatable. And if I'm the one too hung up on a guarantee, why did the players set a minimum cap level in the only offer they linked stating it could never dip below 67 mill, and on top of that say that through years 2-5 in that offer their share couldn't decrease? It sounds like someone is hung up on a guarantee, but it ain't me.

As for revenue sharing, you'd have to be very naive to think the high revenue teams don't care about the smaller markets that are struggling considering revenue sharing is already in place and the high revenue teams are already losing money to them. The owners aren't weeping in sympathy, but they are losing dollars because of it and to a greedy business man that is more of a motivator. And why should a company like Rogers/Bell want more revenue sharing then the 200 million the owners are already offering? They just paid 1.32 billion for their franchise and you want them to give away a significant portion of their LOCAL revenues in order for other teams to afford out of control player costs? That sounds like a solid plan, and should be relatively easy to convince owners of. Let's make sure all franchises get 10 mill across the board with our new and improved revenue sharing program, fair for all and should only take those guys what, 50 or so years to make good on their investment? Easy sell.

Meanwhile, NHL'ers profit. There is literally no financial risk for them. You already have guys like Weber bringing in more profit in 2 years then the franchise he plays for has seen in the past decade. Owners are easy to hate, Bettman is easy to hate, I guess it can be a little more difficult to realize the guy you cheer for game in and game out is a greedy ******* as well.

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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
Precedent when it's relevant.

Other players' contracts are relevant because you can make an apples to apples comparison within the same sport. When different sports have different markets, market share, revenue sharing, free agency terms, retirement plans, draft rules, franchising costs, TV contracts, merchandising contracts, etc., they quickly become apples to oranges comparisons.

It's easy to see why pro-owner folks would say "look at the other leagues" because the splits benefit them. If they didn't, pro-player folks would make the same claim. Doesn't make it valid. It's just more rhetoric ******** one group uses to defend their side.
We've been hearing "look at how the NFL shares revenues" throughout these discussions, comparing a league who brings in more revenue in national broadcasting contracts then the NHL does period. If we can compare them at that level why can't we compare players share?

If anything, those leagues both bring in far more money then the NHL and are naturally far more popular in much of the US. NBA has a broadcasting deal 3 times that of the NHLs new one. The NFL eclipses them all. The NHL doesn't touch either in merchandise sales either. With the equipment, travel and cost to run a rink (let alone a rink in TB) it isn't hard to see how the average NHL teams operating expenses would also most likely be much higher. It's not like NBA'ers go through a new pair of shoes every other shifts like NHL players do with sticks. Then look at the challenges associated with growing the NHL in southern markets. If anything, the players share in the NHL should be lower then it is in either of those leagues, and it's not a hard conclusion to come to. Yet the owners are offering a 50/50 split and money on top of that just to get the NHL to where those other top level professional sports leagues already are.

Why should owners want to make money in the NHL? Why should NHL players want to make so much is the better question. The average NHL salary is higher then what more then half the league brings in in revenue each year. Not to many businesses can thrive in that type of environment.


Last edited by Kaoz: 11-27-2012 at 06:43 PM.
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Old
11-27-2012, 07:18 PM
  #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
Short answer Kaoz is because it is completely irrelevant how much other sports make.

What matters to NHL players is that they get whatever percentage is actually attainable through negotiation. For example, when they negotiated this last CBA, did they not negotiate a higher % of revenue than other sports had at that time? If it was attainable then, they'll push for it now. And they should.

The owners can hold their line falling back on these other sports and maybe they'll end up winning those percentages, but if I'm an NHL player I don't care about those percentages until my league falls BELOW them, then I use it to my advantage. Until then I go for every % point I can get.
whatever is available send me the key. I guess the owners want that number to be 50/50.
why are you being so wanted to continue to be a bit more than 50/50. so the question becomes is that agreeable or not.

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11-27-2012, 08:29 PM
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The players have offered a 50-50 split.

You're too hung on the guarantee. The players won't need that because revenue will continue to increase. The business will continue to grow. Even the NHL proposal from October was based on 5% growth which might be conservative. The CBC contract expires soon.

Revenue sharing. The PA proposed revenue sharing at $240M. The owners proposed $190M from $150M. Then it was increases to $200M. Why isn't it at $240M if the big market owners care so much about the suffering small market brethren? The PA had to get the NHL to up their offer on revenue sharing. Jim Dolan,Ed Snider,Molson and the guys in Toronto really care about the teams in Nashville,Phoenix,Florida and Columbus.
The PA proposed revenue sharing is at $400M not at $240M.
At the moment the offer from the owners is at $211M.

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Old
11-27-2012, 09:00 PM
  #729
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NHL player told me NHL team front office person told him, 48 game schedule beginning in Jan. is already outlined #rockoutwithyourNHLockout

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11-27-2012, 09:17 PM
  #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
John Buccigross ‏@Buccigross
NHL player told me NHL team front office person told him, 48 game schedule beginning in Jan. is already outlined #rockoutwithyourNHLockout
48 games huh....To be honest, I am not all that interested a season with less than 60 games.

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11-27-2012, 09:19 PM
  #731
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48 games huh....To be honest, I am not all that interested a season with less than 60 games.
My limit was 49 games.

48?

Not interested.

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Old
11-27-2012, 09:25 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by The Special K View Post
48 games huh....To be honest, I am not all that interested a season with less than 60 games.

A season means playoff hockey, playoff hockey means a shot at the cup. Ill take any hockey I can get. I understand the idea that a shortened cup invalidates the playoff run, but everyone has the same shot, we already won one, any hockey is good hockey...do I really need to say more?

If there is a season, most of us won't even care about the lockout by the time the boys are back in town

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Old
11-27-2012, 09:28 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
John Buccigross ‏@Buccigross
NHL player told me NHL team front office person told him, 48 game schedule beginning in Jan. is already outlined #rockoutwithyourNHLockout
Sounds a lot like telephone.

I'll believe it when I see it and I doubt we'll be seeing NHL hockey this season.

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Old
11-27-2012, 09:44 PM
  #734
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48 games is better than none.

But damn...that's just weak.

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Old
11-27-2012, 10:13 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by The Special K View Post
48 games huh....To be honest, I am not all that interested a season with less than 60 games.
I agree. Time to move on here. No season to be had.

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Old
11-27-2012, 10:52 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by KnightofBoston View Post
A season means playoff hockey, playoff hockey means a shot at the cup. Ill take any hockey I can get. I understand the idea that a shortened cup invalidates the playoff run, but everyone has the same shot, we already won one, any hockey is good hockey...do I really need to say more?

If there is a season, most of us won't even care about the lockout by the time the boys are back in town
I don't care how many games you play in the regular season. The nhl playoffs is the most intense/crazy playoffs around (for the best of 7 sports, football maybe overall). If they played 15 games and then a 2- 2 1/2 month playoff run i'd respect anyone who wins it. Nevermind 48. Would i rather have 60+ games.. absolutely, but i'll still take any hockey at this point.

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Old
11-28-2012, 04:17 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Mione134 View Post
48 games is better than none.

But damn...that's just weak.
Agreed, I may be in the minority with you, it`s almost December, funny, my life has gone on, I haven`t lost my will to live without this great game, interestingly enough, I`ve adjusted to not having NHL hockey as an escape.

A BS 50 game schedule is just not something I`m terribly excited about, not sure why, just how I feel, probably because I`m a believer that a shortened season like that skews the talent, some teams get off to great starts and can`t sustain it during an 82 game schedule.

Others are slower starters but finish strong, and I like watching things like that develop, just won`t/doesn`t happen in the same fashion with a 50 game sched, feels like an immediate mad dash and I like the grind of the year, separates the boys from the men IMO and, being a fan who`s sick of this, it would serve both sides right to have NOBODY making a nickel this year (with sympathies to those this really hurts like arena staff and surrounding businesses who benefit from games being played)

Best part of the lockout, I won`t have to endure a Winter "Classic" involving a team who hasn`t made the playoffs since Madonna was relevant....if she ever was?

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Old
11-28-2012, 06:15 AM
  #738
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I don't even get how a 48 game schedule would work

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11-28-2012, 06:52 AM
  #739
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Agreed, I may be in the minority with you, it`s almost December, funny, my life has gone on, I haven`t lost my will to live without this great game, interestingly enough, I`ve adjusted to not having NHL hockey as an escape.
I think this is the part that both the NHL and PA need to be worried about.

I'm 100% with ODAAT. I don't miss it as much as I thought I would. I'm OK.

I'm not even mad anymore -- just kind of apathetic.

Now I'll come back and watch -- I won't deny it.

However, if I told you that some of my passion hasn't dissipated somehow I'd be lying. If that's true of a rabid NHL fan -- that is a problem for both the NHL and the PA.

I can imagine that for the more casual fan base, the NHL has become essentially irrelevant. Congratulations NHL and PA...... how to screw over what was at least a bronze goose.

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Old
11-28-2012, 06:57 AM
  #740
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I don't even get how a 48 game schedule would work
Neither do I.. Only thing I can think of are these.....

Scenario 1
7x intra-divisional opponents = 28 games
2x intra-conference opponents = 20 games
0x Western conference = 0 games

not even home/away intra-divisional games

OR

Scenario 2
2x intra-divisional opponents = 8 games
4x intra-conference opponents = 40 games
0x Western conference = 0 games

even home/away everywhere, but less intra-divisional games.



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Old
11-28-2012, 07:02 AM
  #741
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994%E2%80%9395_NHL_season they did in 94/95.. but then again there was 28 teams then. Man the 94-95 season looking back was a bit depressing.

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Old
11-28-2012, 07:11 AM
  #742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightofBoston View Post
A season means playoff hockey, playoff hockey means a shot at the cup. Ill take any hockey I can get. I understand the idea that a shortened cup invalidates the playoff run, but everyone has the same shot, we already won one, any hockey is good hockey...do I really need to say more?

If there is a season, most of us won't even care about the lockout by the time the boys are back in town

That will be true for the most part, but there will be a sizable group who are like myself and will not be all that enthused by a short 48 game season after a lockout where both parties collectively gave us; the people who pay their salaries, the finger. I forgive slow.

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11-28-2012, 07:15 AM
  #743
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The question is not what percentage of lunatic fringers won't come back.

I realize I am in the overwhelmingly small minority on here that won't be giving the NHL any money for awhile.

The question is what percentage of the other paying customers won't. The NHL was growing because they were adding fans to their small but loyal base.

This lockout is going to take away from that group, and, whether we like it or not, that is a big percentage of the dollars and attention that goes to the NHL.

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Old
11-28-2012, 07:18 AM
  #744
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Do you guys think all the pink hat fans we gained on our way to the cup will be gone, will it be more like the fans we had in 07 than 2011, will hockey become an ater thought to all the people in Boston that jumped on once we made the run to the cup. If so thats got to be a huge portion of revenue lost for the Boston area towards the NHL.

And what about the Florida's or Tampa's that might not make the play-offs are there fans never going to come back, or until they get back to being good?

Just thinking if 80% of the pink hat fan was to leave hockey what percentage of revenue is lost, and if there is a 50/50 split going forward is it going to be in last years cba terms a 47/40 the other 13% gone from fans leaving so the players would loose 10% and owners 3%. I don't know but by that math wich is not 100% thought through wouldn't the players have more to lose. And this is got to be the reason they want it to go down 3 years before 50/50, hockey will have time to recover some fans.

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11-28-2012, 07:19 AM
  #745
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I'm fine with 48 games. The regular season is long, and rather meaningless anyway.

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11-28-2012, 07:30 AM
  #746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly23 View Post
Do you guys think all the pink hat fans we gained on our way to the cup will be gone, will it be more like the fans we had in 07 than 2011, will hockey become an ater thought to all the people in Boston that jumped on once we made the run to the cup. If so thats got to be a huge portion of revenue lost for the Boston area towards the NHL.

And what about the Florida's or Tampa's that might not make the play-offs are there fans never going to come back, or until they get back to being good?

Just thinking if 80% of the pink hat fan was to leave hockey what percentage of revenue is lost, and if there is a 50/50 split going forward is it going to be in last years cba terms a 47/40 the other 13% gone from fans leaving so the players would loose 10% and owners 3%. I don't know but by that math wich is not 100% thought through wouldn't the players have more to lose. And this is got to be the reason they want it to go down 3 years before 50/50, hockey will have time to recover some fans.
The so-called pink hat fans don't care. It's the diehards that are outraged. My sister is a pink hat; she wasn't even aware, until I told here, that there is a lockout going on. If the season starts within a month, they'll be OK with it.

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11-28-2012, 07:44 AM
  #747
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I think this is the part that both the NHL and PA need to be worried about.

I'm 100% with ODAAT. I don't miss it as much as I thought I would. I'm OK.

I'm not even mad anymore -- just kind of apathetic.

Now I'll come back and watch -- I won't deny it.

However, if I told you that some of my passion hasn't dissipated somehow I'd be lying. If that's true of a rabid NHL fan -- that is a problem for both the NHL and the PA.

I can imagine that for the more casual fan base, the NHL has become essentially irrelevant. Congratulations NHL and PA...... how to screw over what was at least a bronze goose.
I feel the same exact way, and I am a die-hard. I've done more work around the house, spent time with my wife and kids, life has gone on.

I can't recall a Christmas without Bruins stuff under the tree, none this year though.

I will watch the games, but it will be some time before I spend any money on anything NHL...I've had enough of the nonsense. This league has never had a problem treating the fans like crap, a message needs to be sent.

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Old
11-28-2012, 07:51 AM
  #748
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[QUOTE=Therick67;56087003]I feel the same exact way, and I am a die-hard. I've done more work around the house, spent time with my wife and kids, life has gone on.

I can't recall a Christmas without Bruins stuff under the tree, none this year though.

I will watch the games, but it will be some time before I spend any money on anything NHL...I've had enough of the nonsense. This league has never had a problem treating the fans like crap, a message needs to be sent.[/
QUOTE]

This is my stance as well.

I'm not in a position to hit harder, such as a non-renewal of season tickets, so this is really the only card I have to play..and I'll play it, much to the dismay of a 10 year old boy.

I'll still get him something hockey-related, but not something that will directly benefit the NHL financially.

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11-28-2012, 07:56 AM
  #749
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[QUOTE=Roll 4 Lines;56087067]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
I feel the same exact way, and I am a die-hard. I've done more work around the house, spent time with my wife and kids, life has gone on.

I can't recall a Christmas without Bruins stuff under the tree, none this year though.

I will watch the games, but it will be some time before I spend any money on anything NHL...I've had enough of the nonsense. This league has never had a problem treating the fans like crap, a message needs to be sent.[/
QUOTE]

This is my stance as well.

I'm not in a position to hit harder, such as a non-renewal of season tickets, so this is really the only card I have to play..and I'll play it, much to the dismay of a 10 year old boy.

I'll still get him something hockey-related, but not something that will directly benefit the NHL financially.
My 8 yr old loves the Bruins, but he's found other things to do. He'd watch some of the game wtih me and in the morning he would ask me who won, who scored.

He will also be getting hockey stuff also, nothing NHL though.

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Old
11-28-2012, 07:59 AM
  #750
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[QUOTE=Therick67;56087107]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roll 4 Lines View Post

My 8 yr old loves the Bruins, but he's found other things to do. He'd watch some of the game wtih me and in the morning he would ask me who won, who scored.

He will also be getting hockey stuff also, nothing NHL though.
Is AHL gear readily available? I`m here in Halifax where it`s pretty much impossible to find in any stores, I`m sure there`s online options but...some fantastic logo`s out there and pretty fun looking stuff I`d consider having

I`ve been rippin it up old school, found and have been playing NHL09 on the ole XBox and loving it for it`s "simplicity"

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