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11-27-2012, 12:44 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by gamedotdll View Post
Where are you getting the vast majority of fans are clearly on the owners side? Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean the vast majority of anything is sharing it.

The owners got everything they wanted last CBA and put themselves into the current situation. The owners signed the current contracts and should be required to honor them. What is the point of a contract if every 4 years owners can just change their minds.
Its the impression that I get and as you should know I'm pretty much always right. I don't think the PR battle is close. If you see articles on TSN for instance (look for Brouwers latest stupidity) and you will see 99% of the posters are clearly against the players.

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11-27-2012, 12:53 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Its the impression that I get and as you should know I'm pretty much always right. I don't think the PR battle is close. If you see articles on TSN for instance (look for Brouwers latest stupidity) and you will see 99% of the posters are clearly against the players.
Most remotely educated fans should be pro-owner.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize...the NHL isn't a big profit sport. Do we really want to be the league that is shuffling **** with cities taking a seat in an NHL chair and then...



When they are losing money and forced to relocate/sell.

And then the next city sits in the chair and then...

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11-27-2012, 08:56 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by DynamoAO View Post
Most remotely educated fans should be pro-owner.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize...the NHL isn't a big profit sport. Do we really want to be the league that is shuffling **** with cities taking a seat in an NHL chair and then...

When they are losing money and forced to relocate/sell.

And then the next city sits in the chair and then...
That really has more to do with revenue sharing, in my opinion.

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11-28-2012, 06:33 AM
  #479
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That really has more to do with revenue sharing, in my opinion.
Sure, but are the top 10% of teams in the NHL making WAYYY enough revenue to keep the bottom 90% afloat, while at the same time, not milking them dry as well?

No.

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11-28-2012, 07:41 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by DynamoAO View Post
Sure, but are the top 10% of teams in the NHL making WAYYY enough revenue to keep the bottom 90% afloat, while at the same time, not milking them dry as well?

No.
Right on.

The NHL is NOT the NFL/NBA/MLB which all have TV contracts that are greater than theirs. The NHL heavily relies on gate revenues and fans who attend these games.

When a league has half the teams losing money then its in trouble and robbing Peter to pay Paul will certainly sour Peter. Why should Peter keep trying to bring in greater and greater revenues when other non profitable markets do nothing but leach??

If the players get their way it will eventually lead to contraction and then the players will be up in arms about that too and there will probably be another dispute next time around.

Its unfathomable to me how people cant understand that the Owners are the ones putting up all the capital and risk and they are NOT guaranteed profits whereas as a guy like Gomez who fails to perform still rakes in $7 million due to guaranteed contracts.

If fans really believe that its the players who sell the games and are the ones they come to see then the Players should just disband and make their own league...oh wait...that means they have to put up THEIR capital and take RISK! Not happening.

The players are truly trying to kill the Goose that laid their Golden eggs b/c they are plain stupid on the whole. Thats what you can expect with a bunch of high school level education meat heads who blindly follow and support a guy like Fehr.

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11-28-2012, 08:35 AM
  #481
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Maybe the NHL would have a valuable tv deal if they didn't cancel a season every few years.

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11-28-2012, 08:51 AM
  #482
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Maybe the NHL would have a valuable tv deal if they didn't cancel a season every few years.
Or have a sport that doesn't translate for **** on TV, is too fast for the average mouth breathing Americans attention span and that is played by a bunch of Asfankakakovs and Lelemieuxs(LE-LEM-E-UX?! WHAT A SILLY NAME). This is Amurrica, damnit. We want Smiths and a simple to understand sport!

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11-28-2012, 09:10 AM
  #483
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Back in the day, the game was "too brutal" for the major networks to carry, before there were 50 sports channels to choose from. Even they knew, wrestling was fake and allowed it. All we really had, was boxing. And a handful of Caps games on WDCA 20.

Now we live in an era when MMA is extremely popular, but hockey has turned the other cheek and have cleaned up the game because of all the negative pub they would get from even 1 bad event, and as a result, i feel the game is not nearly as marketable. They now feel they must market a single player, versus that Big Monty Boston grudge match.

Mario's Marketing LLC was a complete and utter failure. The NBC deal was their big deal, and was all about marketing Sid and saving armPitt. It took them Sid concussions before they looked elsewhere, and Ovi's play got close to peaking before they realized there was something better they could be marketing. But when they finally finally figured out Ovi was a grade A marketing piece, the league started suspending him. Ovi's marketability has fallen a lot in the past 2 years, and the league missed the boat almost completely.

They cant win for losing. Yet modern prime time programming in the US is littered with endless gore and violence, but as always, nary the lowly nipple making even a brief appearance. At least we had the super bowl.


Last edited by RandyHolt: 11-28-2012 at 09:33 AM.
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11-28-2012, 09:34 AM
  #484
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Back in the day, the game was "too brutal" for the major networks to carry, before there were 50 sports channels to choose from. Even they knew, wrestling was fake and allowed it. All we really had, was boxing. And a handful of Caps games on WDCA 20.

Now we live in an era when MMA is extremely popular, but hockey has turned the other cheek and have cleaned up the game because of all the negative pub they would get from even 1 bad event, and as a result, i feel the game is not nearly as marketable. They now feel they must market a single player, versus that Big Monty Boston grudge match.

Mario's Marketing LLC was a complete and utter failure. The NBC deal was their big deal, and was all about marketing Sid and saving armPitt. It took them Sid concussions before they looked elsewhere, and Ovi's play got close to peaking before they realized there was something better they could be marketing. But when they finally finally figured out Ovi was a grade A marketing piece, the league started suspending him. Ovi's marketability has fallen a lot in the past 2 years, and the league missed the boat almost completely.

They cant win for losing. Yet prime time programming in the US is littered with endless gore and violence.
Bubba in the trailer park isn't going to know how to even spell the word, "hockey" let alone be intelligent enough to figure out the rules. His simple brain can comprehend, FACE+FIST=AWESOME!, hence why MMA is so popular.

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11-28-2012, 09:38 AM
  #485
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Offsides and icing may well prove to be the demise of Hockey. People just can't figure it out.

Fans league wide knew Ovi was the new hot commodity and paid to see him, but Nobody But Crosby execs did not know who Ovechkin was. Overstock?

Mario's marketing vision seems to have been followed almost blindly.

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11-28-2012, 09:40 AM
  #486
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The problem with hockey is clearly (to me at least) due to the grass roots level.

Soccer, basketball, football etc ..well you can find a court or field anywhere pretty much and all you need is a ball. Baseball you do need more players and gloves but its relatively cheap.

Hockey is EXPENSIVE!! Especially since you need to introduce a growing kid to it and constantly have to buy new equipment as he outsizes the old.

My buddy was on the Junior Caps and for one season the cost was $5,000 and that did not include travel or other expenses.

Ice rinks aren't everywhere and where they are its usually more profitable to have skating sessions to the public as opposed to games which are relinquished to the midnight slot.

There is roller hockey and street hockey for sure but even that got hard when we played it. The more popular it became the more people who owned Tennis courts dissallowed it (scuffs up the surface).

In cold weather countries its a bit easier cause they can play on a sheet of ice in the backyard.

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11-28-2012, 09:50 AM
  #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DynamoAO View Post
Or have a sport that doesn't translate for **** on TV, is too fast for the average mouth breathing Americans attention span and that is played by a bunch of Asfankakakovs and Lelemieuxs(LE-LEM-E-UX?! WHAT A SILLY NAME). This is Amurrica, damnit. We want Smiths and a simple to understand sport!
There's plenty of mouth breathers on this board And they keep up just fine. Hockey isn't for geniuses; for Pete sake Canadians watch it.

Its hard to build an audience when you disappear from time to time.

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11-28-2012, 10:00 AM
  #488
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There's plenty of mouth breathers on this board And they keep up just fine. Hockey isn't for geniuses; for Pete sake Canadians watch it.

Its hard to build an audience when you disappear from time to time.
The MLS hasn't disappeared and where the **** are they?

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11-28-2012, 10:01 AM
  #489
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The expensive part is definitely true. My 10 yo son playing AA travel this year, and with camps, lessons equipment, team fees, travel, etc, I'm at close to $10K a year. Next year could be Team Maryland/Little Caps Tier 1 level and the costs just go up.

You are right about most of the country having limited ice time for hockey, especially going south. My son has played quality teams from Georgia and Carolina, but they were made up of kids from all over the state/multiple states, just to get enough talent to complete.

On the other hand, the local rinks are finding hockey is growing in this area faster than figure and speed skating. There are hockey games scheduled all day long on the weekends and hockey practices go from 4-10pm during the week in a lot of rinks. There are also stick and puck sessions several times a week. Youth hockey has gotten big in this area.

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11-28-2012, 10:05 AM
  #490
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The MLS hasn't disappeared and where the **** are they?
Soccer isn't even a sport. It's a bunch of *******s faking injuries for two hours that culminates in a scoreless tie.

And if you labor under the delusion that soccer is a sport, you probably watch the European leagues where the quality of diving is higher and there are even more scoreless ties.

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11-28-2012, 10:18 AM
  #491
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Soccer isn't even a sport. It's a bunch of *******s faking injuries for two hours that culminates in a scoreless tie.

And if you labor under the delusion that soccer is a sport, you probably watch the European leagues where the quality of diving is higher and there are even more scoreless ties.

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11-28-2012, 10:23 AM
  #492
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Soccer isn't even a sport. It's a bunch of *******s faking injuries for two hours that culminates in a scoreless tie.

And if you labor under the delusion that soccer is a sport, you probably watch the European leagues where the quality of diving is higher and there are even more scoreless ties.
Isn't soccer, by far, the most popular sport in the world? I thought it was...

Some sports just don't take off in America like they do in other countries.

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11-28-2012, 11:09 AM
  #493
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Isn't soccer, by far, the most popular sport in the world? I thought it was...

Some sports just don't take off in America like they do in other countries.
well the mls is growing, soccer could become very popular in the usa one day. especially when it only has to compete with an nhl that locks out every 6 years and a boring basketball and baseball product. not to mention a football game that includes more breaks and commercials than actual plays

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11-28-2012, 11:33 AM
  #494
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well the mls is growing, soccer could become very popular in the usa one day. especially when it only has to compete with an nhl that locks out every 6 years and a boring basketball and baseball product. not to mention a football game that includes more breaks and commercials than actual plays
Not to stray too far off topic here but soccer seems to always fail in the US.

One of the reasons is because all the best players in the world play in various other leagues.

More and more we see EPL games being telivised nationally here and now have an awesome soccer channel on cable too. With that kind of access to REAL soccer I doubt the MLS takes off. Just a hunch.

Now back on topic...

I hope the Owner's don't cave on this one! I don't think they will.

When expenses go up for owners their ticket prices tend to follow that same trend. If they don't then the owners will surely lose money.

What that means is that we fans will be paying the brunt of the cost.

What saddens me most about this whole ordeal is how some of the Caps players have spouted off some of the dumbest comments or are constantly saying something. Ovechkin and Brouwer need to shut up.

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11-28-2012, 11:45 AM
  #495
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when the name of your sport is different in north america than anywhere else in the world, its a weak foundation.

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11-28-2012, 11:49 AM
  #496
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Ticket prices don't (or shouldn't) go up because expenses do, expenses go up because ticket prices do. Ticket prices are an issue of demand, expenses are tied to revenue (which flows from that demand).

The problem is that the big markets can justify much higher ticket prices than the small, and their revenue (from more expensive tickets plus larger secondary revenue streams like TV and such) pushes the league's HRR up and therefore increases expenses that are tied to that. So blame the fans in TOR, MON, NYC etc. for all these problems.

Lower player costs really wouldn't/shouldn't lead to lower ticket prices, they would lead to bigger profit margins. If you can sell out the building at a certain price point you'd be a fool to charge any less, and lower player costs won't change that. Even if you can't, you should be pricing your tickets you maximize income based on the market, which I can't see being tied to your player costs really.

EDIT: I guess this all underestimates the ability of the consumer to be duped into paying more; using increased player costs to bolster demand for no logical reason. But I don't know how much that *actually* comes into play.

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11-28-2012, 12:09 PM
  #497
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Ticket prices don't (or shouldn't) go up because expenses do, expenses go up because ticket prices do. Ticket prices are an issue of demand, expenses are tied to revenue (which flows from that demand).
So ...lets say the cost of fuel rises. Does that lead to an increase in the price of goods due to additional freight costs? Id say so. What happens if the price of goods arbitrarily raises? Do fuel/freight charges go up then?

Lets use an orange for example...if I arbitrarily increase the price of an orange (lets say I'm the only orange dealer in the area) then do my expense will thereby go up??

No my friend...the way it works is that if it starts costing me more to produce oranges then I will either have to find a way to streamline costs (salary cap 50/50) or get more money from the oranges (ticket price increases being a key way to do that)

If ticket prices go up then demand for them will go down until it meets equilibrium.

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11-28-2012, 12:16 PM
  #498
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My point is that an NHL team should already be pricing their tickets to get the maximum possible amount out of them. The orange comparison doesn't work because, in most cases, supply for an NHL team (the number of seats/suites/etc. they can sell) is fixed. Unless rising player costs have an impact on demand (and as I edited to say, it's possible that they could via people being more or less duped into paying more), the amount that a team should be able to make off tickets shouldn't change much.

If a team raises ticket prices and makes more, they were charging too little beforehand (barring a noticeable change in demand). If they're already bringing in the max that they can, more or less, higher prices will just mean fewer tickets sold.

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11-28-2012, 12:25 PM
  #499
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My point is that an NHL team should already be pricing their tickets to get the maximum possible amount out of them. The orange comparison doesn't work because, in most cases, supply for an NHL team (the number of seats/suites/etc. they can sell) is fixed. Unless rising player costs have an impact on demand (and as I edited to say, it's possible that they could via people being more or less duped into paying more), the amount that a team should be able to make off tickets shouldn't change much.

If a team raises ticket prices and makes more, they were charging too little beforehand (barring a noticeable change in demand). If they're already bringing in the max that they can, more or less, higher prices will just mean fewer tickets sold.
Supply capacity is fixed but thats assuming you sell out every game. I'd venture to say most teams don't sell out every game.

Then NHL, like any business, is maxing out the price to the extent the market will bare...but many many teams are still losing money.

Demand for tickets is tied to price (the lower the price the more people will want tickets).

Price of tickets is tied to expenses (otherwise they'd be losing money since its a gate driven league).

Expenses are tied in large part to player salaries.

For several years Ted had low prices for tickets despite having a relatively high payroll. The result? He lost lots of money in an effort to build a following and market hockey to the area. Could he have raised ticket prices? Sure..BUT...fewer people would have gone to games. He and his people put the price of tickets at the equilibrium point to maximize profit/minimize loss.

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11-28-2012, 12:32 PM
  #500
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Supply is fixed whether you sell out or not. You can't save money by selling fewer seats (until you get into issues of whether you're expanding the rink or whatnot... we're not going there, though). As a result, costs are fixed (wrt seats and such; I guess concessions and everything could play a role, but man that would be small). That means they don't have in impact on the "ideal" equilibrium; they're a horizontal line that is fixed at "18,277" or whatever it is now for the Caps.

Demand is where the price is (ideally) set, then. You should be pricing to max out the market based on that demand, and that price point is largely unrelated to player costs because player costs do not have an effect on seat supply. Yes, there can be exceptions for things like charitable ticket donations and fan outreach stuff to grow the game, but those are small and are again unrelated to player costs.

The only way I can buy it is if you say that fans will modify their own demand based on player costs because they feel it's justified or not. That's stupid logic (how much you're willing to pay is supposed to be about you and nothing else) but then people are stupid, so I'll concede that.

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