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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XX-Time for Rebuilding

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Old
11-28-2012, 11:40 AM
  #551
kman22
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
I heard Napoli wants 5 years, and Swisher and Ross want 4. So the answer to the last few years of overspending poorly on big name players is to overspend poorly on second tier guys instead? WTF is wrong with this management team? Go young. Let the youth develop.

The team sucked last year with Ross, so why is bringing him back for a longer term, at a higher dollar value a good idea? Factor in that NY can't wait to get rid of Swisher, and Napoli only hits decently in Fenway. I mean, who knows whether or not he can do that consistently if he comes here? If it's going to be a bridge year, the answer isn't to bring in cast offs and rehashes. Go young and let the guys you already have in your system get big league experience.

This is just another example of them not wanting to go all in on rebuilding, and delaying the process. If they want to try and stay competitive, then go out and buy every good free agent and go that route (even though it won't likely work). If you want to rebuild, really rebuild and stop wasting your time on retreads like Swisher, Ross, and Napoli.

TL;DR: The management is the problem here. You can't go halfway in either way. Just make a decision and commit to it fully.
The idea is to not burn a ton of the team's control by playing young guys who aren't ready. Guys like napoli and ross allow the prospects to get a little more seasoning on the minors and then be ready in a year or two when the team is set to compete. Ross and napoli become pricey bench players in year 3. The further you go the longer you are paying them to do so.

This is at least how i view it. That being the case, i stay away from swisher at the expense of a draft pick.

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11-28-2012, 12:43 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by kman22 View Post
The idea is to not burn a ton of the team's control by playing young guys who aren't ready. Guys like napoli and ross allow the prospects to get a little more seasoning on the minors and then be ready in a year or two when the team is set to compete. Ross and napoli become pricey bench players in year 3. The further you go the longer you are paying them to do so.

This is at least how i view it. That being the case, i stay away from swisher at the expense of a draft pick.
Which young players are you talking about not burning service time for? Middlebrooks already showed he belongs. Kalish has spent a lot of time up, and if he's healthy, he showed he can contribute. Lavarnway is looking like he's not really the answer, so what do you really lose there? Ciriaco is 26-27 years old, so it's not like he's a hot prospect. Iglesias is at the make it or break it portion of his career, so again, what are you really losing if you give him a shot and he shows he belongs? Basically, worrying about service time for young guys versus signing retreads and marginal big league talent is laughable to me. Going with stop gap measures to avoid using their youth is exactly why they're in this position to start with.


Last edited by LSCII: 11-28-2012 at 12:50 PM.
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Old
11-28-2012, 12:58 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Which young players are you talking about not burning service time for? Middlebrooks already showed he belongs. Kalish has spent a lot of time up, and if he's healthy, he showed he can contribute. Lavarnway is looking like he's not really the answer, so what do you really lose there? Ciriaco is 26-27 years old, so it's not like he's a hot prospect. Iglesias is at the make it or break it portion of his career, so again, what are you really losing if you give him a shot and he shows he belongs? Basically, worrying about service time for young guys versus signing retreads and marginal big league talent is laughable to me. Going with stop gap measures to avoid using their youth is exactly why they're in this position to start with.
No they're in this spot because a couple of highly-paid players dramatically underperformed at the same time, they hired a terrible manager and the clubhouse eroded, and they decided to start over. It's not because they avoided using their youth. And nobody thought AGon, Crawford, Lackey and the like were "stopgap" solutions.

Oh, and Kalish hasn't showed anything. (check that...he's shown he's not ready for the majors).

LSCII I admire your position on this and if this were KC, I'd be all in. But you are delusional if you think the Red Sox are going to field a bunch of Kalish-like stiffs and youngsters until some of them develop as the core of the team. They charge too much, and frankly, CAN MAKE too much to overtly throw away a season in the name of a rebuild. They are going to try to do this in stages, plugging in guys who might catch lightning in a bottle all the while fielding a decent team and allowing prospects to play. It's not an all-in strategy, but it's close to a rebuild as we are going to see around here.

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Old
11-28-2012, 01:27 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
No they're in this spot because a couple of highly-paid players dramatically underperformed at the same time, they hired a terrible manager and the clubhouse eroded, and they decided to start over. It's not because they avoided using their youth. And nobody thought AGon, Crawford, Lackey and the like were "stopgap" solutions.

Oh, and Kalish hasn't showed anything. (check that...he's shown he's not ready for the majors).

LSCII I admire your position on this and if this were KC, I'd be all in. But you are delusional if you think the Red Sox are going to field a bunch of Kalish-like stiffs and youngsters until some of them develop as the core of the team. They charge too much, and frankly, CAN MAKE too much to overtly throw away a season in the name of a rebuild. They are going to try to do this in stages, plugging in guys who might catch lightning in a bottle all the while fielding a decent team and allowing prospects to play. It's not an all-in strategy, but it's close to a rebuild as we are going to see around here.
If you really feel that way about the team and what direction they go in, you should be rooting for them to sign Hamilton and Grienke then. If you're going to grossly overpay, why not go for the best available player? Instead, they're kicking the tires on stiffs like Napoli? Yikes.

Also, overpaying a guy like Crawford and expecting him to be something he never was isn't on the player. Same thing with Lackey. He was marginal but they went for him because he was the big name pitcher out there and threw crazy money at him. I don't blame the players for grabbing the dough in the least. I'd have done the same. A-Gonz was a guy who didn't put up the power numbers they wanted in year two, but he could still have been/was useful. They used his star power to divest themselves of Beckett and Crawford though. I also thought dumping Crawford while he was at an all time low (in terms of value) was a relatively dumb move. I get why they wanted out from that contract, but who's to say he doesn't come back healthy next year and get back to the kind of player he is.

Lastly, you can deride Kalish all you want. The guy was coming off nearly missing an entire season due to injuries and a surgery late in the winter which limited his ramp up time this past year. He more than demonstrated the year before that he can contribute though, IMO.

Ironically, you're okay with the FO throwing money at UFA's, yet they've shown a propensity to suck at evaluating major league talent. Sure Theo was in charge when Crawford and Lackey were signed, and Beckett extended, but it's not like the entire scouting staff left with him. It's also not like Cherrington wasn't there giving his input either. And the topper of them all is that the one eyed bandit is still in charge. So I get why they're going to bring in useless stiffs like Napoli and over pay for dime a dozen guys like Cody Ross. It's because LL thinks he's smarter than everyone and he wants to sell bricks and continue the vaunted sell out streak.

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Old
11-28-2012, 01:38 PM
  #555
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Do the Sox really have that many kids on the way? I know they have 2 or 3 guys who look like they should be good, but are we sure this youth movement is going to be that good?

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11-28-2012, 01:42 PM
  #556
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Do the Sox really have that many kids on the way? I know they have 2 or 3 guys who look like they should be good, but are we sure this youth movement is going to be that good?
When Theo left he was on F&M and talked about the farm system for a bit and said the Bogaerts has the potential to be an star. I think he said multiple 30+ HR seasons. I think JBJ has the potential to be really good too.

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11-28-2012, 01:44 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
Do the Sox really have that many kids on the way? I know they have 2 or 3 guys who look like they should be good, but are we sure this youth movement is going to be that good?
To me, if you're going to be lousy (and make no mistakes, this team is going to be terrible), then embrace it. They had much more talent last year than they will this year, and they finished dead last in the division. So bringing in more mid tier guys and overpaying them in terms of dollars and years does what exactly? I mean if you win 85 games or win 87, is there a marked difference in that? If you're not going to go big and swing a trade for or sign a franchise type player, then what's the point? Suck with the kids because at least the kids still have upside. What upside does a stiff like Napoli bring to the table over the next 3-5 years?

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11-28-2012, 02:01 PM
  #558
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Overpaying for Hamilton is up over 120 million

Overpaying for ross is 30 million

Why can't Ross hold down right field for 2 years until Brentz or Bradley Jr. or someone is really ready.

In two years after towards the bottom finishes top ten draft picks you sign a big name Fa that really helps you, you add Brentz, Bradley jr., this years pick, Webster, Barnes and boom just like the Nationals you go from bottom half to one of the best teams

A start to a good line-up

Ellsbury
Bradley
Pedroia
Bogarts
top Fa
Brentz
WMB
Lavarnaway

A catcher 3 outfield 3 infield and the Fa probly a 1b or DH

start to a good Rotation
Lester
Buch
Webster
Barnes

Thats 12 guys out of 16 key players (9 line-up 5 starters set-up and Closer).

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11-28-2012, 02:05 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by Kelly23 View Post
Overpaying for Hamilton is up over 120 million

Overpaying for ross is 30 million

Why can't Ross hold down right field for 2 years until Brentz or Bradley Jr. or someone is really ready.

In two years after towards the bottom finishes top ten draft picks you sign a big name Fa that really helps you, you add Brentz, Bradley jr., this years pick, Webster, Barnes and boom just like the Nationals you go from bottom half to one of the best teams

A start to a good line-up

Ellsbury
Bradley
Pedroia
Bogarts
top Fa
Brentz
WMB
Lavarnaway

A catcher 3 outfield 3 infield and the Fa probly a 1b or DH

start to a good Rotation
Lester
Buch
Webster
Barnes

Thats 12 guys out of 16 key players (9 line-up 5 starters set-up and Closer).
He's a UFA at the end of this upcoming year. Do you really think he's going to be here in two? With Boras as his agent, that is unlikely.

In terms of overpaying for Hamilton or Ross, I'm not in favor of either. I'd prefer they eschew both routes and go with some reasonable vets on short term (1 or 2 yr) deals, and not bother with the Napoli/Ross/Swishers of the world.

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11-28-2012, 02:07 PM
  #560
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Zack Stewart to Pirates for PTBNL.
Danny Valencia to Orioles for Cash considerations.
Sandy Rosario to Athletics for PTBNL or cash.

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/ar...s_bos&c_id=bos

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11-28-2012, 02:08 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
He's a UFA at the end of this upcoming year. Do you really think he's going to be here in two? With Boras as his agent, that is unlikely.
If the Red Sox feel he is worth it he might if not you still have 7 good peices to that line-up

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11-28-2012, 02:09 PM
  #562
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If the Red Sox feel he is worth it he might if not you still have 7 good peices to that line-up
He's not and he won't.

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Old
11-28-2012, 02:11 PM
  #563
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Zack Stewart to Pirates for PTBNL.
Danny Valencia to Orioles for Cash considerations.
Sandy Rosario to Athletics for PTBNL or cash.

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/ar...s_bos&c_id=bos
haha Red Sox trading a player to the A's for cash, how sad is that!!!

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11-28-2012, 02:12 PM
  #564
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haha Red Sox trading a player to the A's for cash, how sad is that!!!
C'mon. Cody Ross isn't going to play for free or take a home town discount to play here...

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11-28-2012, 02:14 PM
  #565
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haha Red Sox trading a player to the A's for cash, how sad is that!!!
Maybe they could send a brick or 100 year hat instead

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11-28-2012, 02:16 PM
  #566
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@Buster_ESPN: One very interesting possibility for the Red Sox: Brian Wilson, a N.H. native who likely will be non-tendered by the Giants later this week.


If he and Bailey can stay healthy and Bard doesn't pitch like a retard the bullpen could be pretty good.

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11-28-2012, 02:38 PM
  #567
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@Buster_ESPN: One very interesting possibility for the Red Sox: Brian Wilson, a N.H. native who likely will be non-tendered by the Giants later this week.


If he and Bailey can stay healthy and Bard doesn't pitch like a retard the bullpen could be pretty good.
I wouldn't mind Wilson, and I hear the Sox could be shopping Bailey.

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11-28-2012, 02:39 PM
  #568
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I would trade Jon Lester for a top-notch hitting prospect that is close.

I KNOW EVERYONE WAS WONDERING.

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11-28-2012, 02:47 PM
  #569
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I would trade Jon Lester for a top-notch hitting prospect that is close.

I KNOW EVERYONE WAS WONDERING.
Why would you do that? They have no need for any such prospects, since Ross, Swisher, and Napoli are the obvious answer...

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11-28-2012, 02:48 PM
  #570
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If we shop Bailey, is it safe to say the trade was a dud. Because ive said it was day 1 and y'all called me crazy.

I'd like to see him healthy and see how it goes but damn. How sad is that? But Wilson NEEDS to come here. His intensity. His pitching. His BEARD. Oh man. He'd be loved here. Really hoping that works out.


Still hoping we sign Hamilton. But I know its not going to happen.

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11-28-2012, 02:51 PM
  #571
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Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
@Buster_ESPN: One very interesting possibility for the Red Sox: Brian Wilson, a N.H. native who likely will be non-tendered by the Giants later this week.


If he and Bailey can stay healthy and Bard doesn't pitch like a retard the bullpen could be pretty good.
I would like to propose a "No Daniel Bard mentions" rule on this board. Can I get a second?

For crying out loud the guy hit more batters than he threw strikes.

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11-28-2012, 02:54 PM
  #572
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Why would you do that? They have no need for any such prospects, since Ross, Swisher, and Napoli are the obvious answer...
Maybe you should do your health a favor and just give up the Red Sox until they get new ownership because your hope/expectations for their behavior is simply not ever going to happen. I feel like you're just doing your health no favors.

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11-28-2012, 02:59 PM
  #573
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I would like to propose a "No Daniel Bard mentions" rule on this board. Can I get a second?

For crying out loud the guy hit more batters than he threw strikes.
Seconded. I guess we can agree on something

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11-28-2012, 03:07 PM
  #574
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Maybe you should do your health a favor and just give up the Red Sox until they get new ownership because your hope/expectations for their behavior is simply not ever going to happen. I feel like you're just doing your health no favors.
No worries BP, I'm fine. I actually have been enjoying the implosion this team has undergone over the last year and a half. It's been pretty amusing, and seeing them do the same type of (rumored) activities this year, but only for second tier players is even more hilarious. If your team is going to be bad, just be bad. Don't try and hedge your bet by making it marginally better if the results are that you're still going to be at the bottom of your division. The only thing you're doing is actually harming your draft position by sucking, but not sucking as badly as you really should.

Does anyone honestly think that bringing in a Swisher/Napoli type of player and resigning Cody Ross is going to get them to compete for the wild card? The answer is pretty obvious to me. Since it doesn't actually make them a real competitor, why play this game? Winning 5-10 more games than they would if they went with the kids and some shorter term veteran FA's doesn't make it any more marketable. They're still going to be bad either way.

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11-28-2012, 03:20 PM
  #575
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I'd rather be signing a bunch of marginal starting pitchers with upside than marginal hitters with upside.

The lineup is already good enough even if you plug average players into the open spots.

The starting pitching is not.

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