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Portland Winterhawks investigation

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Old
11-28-2012, 06:47 PM
  #76
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The team may have broken the rules, but the punishment does not fit the crime as it stands.

Short of new information stating that the Winterhawks were paying multiple players obscene amounts of money, I just do see the justification. This hurts the development of future players as well.

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11-28-2012, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
The team may have broken the rules, but the punishment does not fit the crime as it stands.

Short of new information stating that the Winterhawks were paying multiple players obscene amounts of money, I just do see the justification. This hurts the development of future players as well.
It wasnt just a one-time thing. This has been going on for at least 5 years. It wasnt an accounting accident, or something that was overlooked...it was done with full knowledge that it was in violation of the rules...rules that EVERY OTHER team has to abide by as well. So, in MY opinion, the punishment surely does fit the crime.

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11-28-2012, 07:05 PM
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Plus, those kind of team doesn't need 1st round pick to collect talent ... it's not has harsh has it seems.

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11-28-2012, 07:21 PM
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Portland has become the spot to go if you're a USA prospect so we will see what happens. From what is released I would expect some of this to get pegged back in a review. They might have done more, but the WHL should have released that, because these penalties look way too harsh otherwise.

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11-28-2012, 07:39 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
The team may have broken the rules, but the punishment does not fit the crime as it stands.

Short of new information stating that the Winterhawks were paying multiple players obscene amounts of money, I just do see the justification. This hurts the development of future players as well.
Sounds like there is more to it than what Portland is admitting to.

Quite a bit more actually.

We will have to wait and see when/if it all comes out in the open.

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11-28-2012, 07:41 PM
  #81
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I wish they'd find another way to punish them than taking away picks like that - it really punishes the fans more than anything.
How about us UND fans, or college hockey fans? Not that you should care, but UND lost JT Miller and Jones (2) first rounders to shady under the table deals. Who knows how many more. I think UND has had 4 or 5 back out in the last two years (Miller, Matteau, Jones, and Koules off the top of my head). It seems like magically at a certain time of the year 5-6 big time NCAA recruits back out of their college commitments to go play juniors. Most of the time it is a month or two before the season, so now a team has to fill a roster spot with a walk on.

As an NCAA follower this is awesome. They have been fighting an unfair recruiting game for a long time. This should make teams think twice about dumping money under the table.

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11-28-2012, 07:46 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FytinSioux View Post
How about us UND fans, or college hockey fans? Not that you should care, but UND lost JT Miller and Jones (2) first rounders to shady under the table deals. Who knows how many more. I think UND has had 4 or 5 back out in the last two years (Miller, Matteau, Jones, and Koules off the top of my head). It seems like magically at a certain time of the year 5-6 big time NCAA recruits back out of their college commitments to go play juniors. Most of the time it is a month or two before the season, so now a team has to fill a roster spot with a walk on.

As an NCAA follower this is awesome. They have been fighting an unfair recruiting game for a long time. This should make teams think twice about dumping money under the table.
ummmm......McKenzie confirmed that none of this investigation or punishment had to do with Seth Jones. I love the NCAA as well, some of the best games I've seen have came from that league, but UND lost Jones fair and square.

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11-28-2012, 08:01 PM
  #83
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ummmm......McKenzie confirmed that none of this investigation or punishment had to do with Seth Jones. I love the NCAA as well, some of the best games I've seen have came from that league, but UND lost Jones fair and square.
I'm not jumping you, but, how do you know this for sure?

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11-28-2012, 08:02 PM
  #84
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It is for some of the guys they got out of College like Wrenn and Reid. It is also for how they are recruiting alot of guys from the US or who are "college" committed. They got a ton of really quality kids to sign whom they listed like Iverson,Schornborn,DeLeo, and Bittner. They have been going after other guys to like Dylan Chanter,Ryan Collins,Jack Dougherty,Jack Glover,Nick Heid,Teemu Kivihalme,Ryan Norman,Fredrik Olofsson, and Alex Overhardt. All guys they listed who probably would be drafted in the top 4 rounds of the Bantam draft if they had any intention of going to the WHL

Something is and was fishy in Portland
BINGO!!!!... thats exactly what they did... they got these older bigger named guys for a year or 2 but promised them 4 years of schooling.... everyone just wait, all the info will slowly start coming out.

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11-28-2012, 08:06 PM
  #85
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I'm not jumping you, but, how do you know this for sure?
How do you know they landed Jones with a "shady under the table deal" for sure? The burden of proof falls on you more than anything since you're the one questioning one of the most reputable sources in hockey, among others that have been reporting that none of the supposed wrongdoing was related to Jones. And if that isn't enough for you I'm curious to see what evidence you can put forth.

And the Jones situation is nothing like the Miller, Matteau, or Koules ones. He never committed to UND and most have expected Jones to go the WHL route since he was 15. He didn't back out on the NCAA or UND.

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11-28-2012, 08:16 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by FytinSioux View Post
How about us UND fans, or college hockey fans? Not that you should care, but UND lost JT Miller and Jones (2) first rounders to shady under the table deals. Who knows how many more. I think UND has had 4 or 5 back out in the last two years (Miller, Matteau, Jones, and Koules off the top of my head). It seems like magically at a certain time of the year 5-6 big time NCAA recruits back out of their college commitments to go play juniors. Most of the time it is a month or two before the season, so now a team has to fill a roster spot with a walk on.

As an NCAA follower this is awesome. They have been fighting an unfair recruiting game for a long time. This should make teams think twice about dumping money under the table.
jones never committed to UND - he didn't "back out" ... he was very clear to them all along that he hadn't made up his mind and wouldn't for sure until after he'd finished with NTDP. He told them that if he went to college he'd go there. UND could have told him "sorry, we can't wait that long, we're filling the spot with someone else" but decided that the risk of waiting it out and seeing him go to the WHL was worth the potential benefit of him going to UND.

it sucked about Miller...but it wasn't necessary a "pay off"...NYR probably pushed him into.

matteau was 9 months before the season not "a month or two" before. also, he went to the Q team where his dad was asst coach. you should be happy he didn't come...if you're familiar with his behaviour while in ushl/ntdp...you wouldn't have wanted him. he would not be a good fit for the ncaa.

koules was not a big loss for UND...be serious.

btw, you're naive if you don't think there's underhanded behaviour re ncaa recruiting

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11-28-2012, 08:17 PM
  #87
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Sounds like there is more to it than what Portland is admitting to.

Quite a bit more actually.

We will have to wait and see when/if it all comes out in the open.
As a Spitfire fan I can shed a little light onto how things are going to play out based on how the Spitfires were treated. This looks very similar to their situation. Initially the league nailed the Spitfires with an absolutely stunning penalty of future draft picks and cash. 3 1st rounders, 2 second rounders and 400,000 in cold hard cash. After letting that sink in for a while, the league came back with an option that would give Windsor a first round pick back, space out the penalty picks to future years, and lower the fine to 250,000 dollars. Of course they would have to drop the appeal, admit guilt and never speak of it ever again. That is what Windsor ultimately did. There are absolutely zero details from the league or team about what the violations actually were, and we probably will never know for sure.

In my opinion the WHL is just following the OHL's lead here. They'll announce a massive initial penalty to scare Portland into quietly accepting a less harsh deal later on. I think the leagues are happy to lure the best talent in the world and take advantage of that when possible, but Portland and Windsor have been fed to the Wolves for the sake of giving the illusion of integrity. The CHL has always looked the other way on these things, the London Knights once hired a prospects dad as an assistant coach to get him to report after taking him with a late pick. These sorts of things have happened for years, with the league quietly looking the other way. It's no coincidence that Windsor and Portland are both organizations that can afford such a penalty, making it obvious to all why only they are persecuted when others clearly do the same and have for years. It's a sham, I feel for you Portland fans. Branch is a clown.

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11-28-2012, 08:17 PM
  #88
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How do you know they landed Jones with a "shady under the table deal" for sure? The burden of proof falls on you more than anything since you're the one questioning one of the most reputable sources in hockey, among others that have been reporting that it wasn't related to Jones. And if that isn't enough for you I'm curious to see what evidence you can put forth.

And the Jones situation is nothing like the Miller, Matteau, or Koules ones. He never committed to UND and most have expected Jones to go the WHL route since he was 15. He didn't back out on the NCAA or UND.
You are right about that second part...my bad. I forgot he didn't commit, but had it narrowed down to und if he chose college over the Whl.

As far as the McKenzie part. I'm assuming you are referring to the tweet where bob says Jones's agent said that jones didn't take any deals. What do you think he's gonna say?

Bob is the best there is when it comes to credibility but unless you are referring to something other than that tweet, I don't see how jones is cleared of anything.

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11-28-2012, 08:24 PM
  #89
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As a Spitfire fan I can shed a little light onto how things are going to play out based on how the Spitfires were treated. This looks very similar to their situation. Initially the league nailed the Spitfires with an absolutely stunning penalty of future draft picks and cash. 3 1st rounders, 2 second rounders and 400,000 in cold hard cash. After letting that sink in for a while, the league came back with an option that would give Windsor a first round pick back, space out the penalty picks to future years, and lower the fine to 250,000 dollars. Of course they would have to drop the appeal, admit guilt and never speak of it ever again. That is what Windsor ultimately did. There are absolutely zero details from the league or team about what the violations actually were, and we probably will never know for sure.

In my opinion the WHL is just following the OHL's lead here. They'll announce a massive initial penalty to scare Portland into quietly accepting a less harsh deal later on. I think the leagues are happy to lure the best talent in the world and take advantage of that when possible, but Portland and Windsor have been fed to the Wolves for the sake of giving the illusion of integrity. The CHL has always looked the other way on these things, the London Knights once hired a prospects dad as an assistant coach to get him to report after taking him with a late pick. These sorts of things have happened for years, with the league quietly looking the other way. It's no coincidence that Windsor and Portland are both organizations that can afford such a penalty, making it obvious to all why only they are persecuted when others clearly do the same and have for years. It's a sham, I feel for you Portland fans. Branch is a clown.
he's just horrible. he sickens me

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11-28-2012, 08:26 PM
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I really wish people would stop blaming WHL and CHL higher ups for this punishment and saying they feel sorry for the fans becasue of them... this was PORTLANDs wrong doing and fans should be absolutely rattled with the organization!!!

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11-28-2012, 08:29 PM
  #91
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jones never committed to UND - he didn't "back out" ... he was very clear to them all along that he hadn't made up his mind and wouldn't for sure until after he'd finished with NTDP. He told them that if he went to college he'd go there. UND could have told him "sorry, we can't wait that long, we're filling the spot with someone else" but decided that the risk of waiting it out and seeing him go to the WHL was worth the potential benefit of him going to UND.

it sucked about Miller...but it wasn't necessary a "pay off"...NYR probably pushed him into.

matteau was 9 months before the season not "a month or two" before. also, he went to the Q team where his dad was asst coach. you should be happy he didn't come...if you're familiar with his behaviour while in ushl/ntdp...you wouldn't have wanted him. he would not be a good fit for the ncaa.

koules was not a big loss for UND...be serious.

btw, you're naive if you don't think there's underhanded behaviour re ncaa recruiting
I forgot that jones wasn't committed. See my last post. My bad.

Maybe that did happen with miller. Maybe it didn't. Who knows. Explain to me of all teams why the NYR would be strongly against the NCAA. Each situation is different, but do you see why I am questioning what happened.

I never said Matteau was a month or two before the season started. I said most are a month or two. It doesn't matter now that he has been an idiot since leaving, he was still a big recruit at the time.

Koules is still better than a walk on, no?

You make it sound like I am crazy for questioning some of these de-commitments.

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11-28-2012, 08:34 PM
  #92
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As far as the McKenzie part. I'm assuming you are referring to the tweet where bob says Jones's agent said that jones didn't take any deals. What do you think he's gonna say?

Bob is the best there is when it comes to credibility but unless you are referring to something other than that tweet, I don't see how jones is cleared of anything.
That tweet came over an hour after Bob first tweeted that Jones wasn't involved. I'd think if the quote from the agent was all Bob was going on then he would have just tweeted it right after he said nothing in the CHL's audit of Jones was irregular. Also, I can't imagine Bob would be that emphatic in his initial statement strictly on the word of the player's agent. He's just as aware of the bias there as you are.

Can you prove your claims?

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11-28-2012, 08:39 PM
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Everyone just remember that Winterhawks owner is loaded and wouldnt be writing cheques or anything like that that can be traced in an audit. Hes not an amateur haha. Alot of under the table cash. They can audit as much as they want and wont find anything

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11-28-2012, 08:44 PM
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Everyone just remember that Winterhawks owner is loaded and wouldnt be writing cheques or anything like that that can be traced in an audit. Hes not an amateur haha. Alot of under the table cash. They can audit as much as they want and wont find anything

Yes, but he also probably doesn't want the IRS chasing him over his junior hockey team. I doubt it is all that huge if that is what he is up to.

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11-28-2012, 08:46 PM
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You are right about that second part...my bad. I forgot he didn't commit, but had it narrowed down to und if he chose college over the Whl.

As far as the McKenzie part. I'm assuming you are referring to the tweet where bob says Jones's agent said that jones didn't take any deals. What do you think he's gonna say?

Bob is the best there is when it comes to credibility but unless you are referring to something other than that tweet, I don't see how jones is cleared of anything.
there was also this tweet:

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie
I am hearing unequivocally that WHL audit of Portland did not turn up any irregularities with acquisition/signing of Seth Jones.

Jones has only been there a couple of months...I'm guessing that whatever infractions were involved were for a time period ending at the end of last season...

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11-28-2012, 08:50 PM
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That tweet came over an hour after Bob first tweeted that Jones wasn't involved. I'd think if the quote from the agent was all Bob was going on then he would have just tweeted it right after he said nothing in the CHL's audit of Jones was irregular. Also, I can't imagine Bob would be that emphatic in his initial statement strictly on the word of the player's agent. He's just as aware of the bias there as you are.

Can you prove your claims?
Sorry, don't have twitter (maybe I should now). All I saw was the one by Jones's agent.

If the audit clears Jones then my claim was false and I should sign up for twitter so I don't look retarded again. I jumped to conclusions on Jones. It still won't change the fact that I will question these de-commitments. In the Jones case there seems to be solid evidence that nothing shady went on, but that's one of many.

I just want the recruiting field to be fair on both sides NCAA or chl.

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11-28-2012, 08:52 PM
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I forgot that jones wasn't committed. See my last post. My bad.

Maybe that did happen with miller. Maybe it didn't. Who knows. Explain to me of all teams why the NYR would be strongly against the NCAA. Each situation is different, but do you see why I am questioning what happened.

I never said Matteau was a month or two before the season started. I said most are a month or two. It doesn't matter now that he has been an idiot since leaving, he was still a big recruit at the time.

Koules is still better than a walk on, no?

You make it sound like I am crazy for questioning some of these de-commitments.
you're not crazy for questioning them...but there are more reasons a prospect has for de-committing than they got paid under the table. just b/c a prospect bails doesn't mean that he was paid off.

rightly or wrongly there is a perception that the chl is an easier path to the nhl than the ncaa. for most kids, they don't start college until *after* they've been drafted so may decide they'll get drafted higher if they're playing in the chl during their draft year. ...or , after being drafted, might decide (perhaps with the strong encouragement of their nhl team) that the chl will be better for their development or present a quicker route to the nhl.

even if ^^ isn't accurate, the perception is certainly there...and while i'm sure there is underhanded stuff that goes on, i don't think it's fairly rare.

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11-28-2012, 09:03 PM
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Not sure I understand the purpose of the Winterhawks statement. Wouldn't they fight the penalties through the proper channels, not start a campaign for public opinion? Almost seems like they are advertising to prospective players.

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11-28-2012, 09:05 PM
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you're not crazy for questioning them...but there are more reasons a prospect has for de-committing than they got paid under the table. just b/c a prospect bails doesn't mean that he was paid off.

rightly or wrongly there is a perception that the chl is an easier path to the nhl than the ncaa. for most kids, they don't start college until *after* they've been drafted so may decide they'll get drafted higher if they're playing in the chl during their draft year. ...or , after being drafted, might decide (perhaps with the strong encouragement of their nhl team) that the chl will be better for their development or present a quicker route to the nhl.

even if ^^ isn't accurate, the perception is certainly there...and while i'm sure there is underhanded stuff that goes on, i don't think it's fairly rare.
I realize kids will de-commit, because...they are kids. The are pressured to sign these commitments at young ages. I don't assume that every player that bails does it because of some behind the scenes business, but there are a few that leave me scratching my head. If two teams have been caught, there are probably more that are doing the same thing unfortunately.

It's the Muslim on an airplane syndrome, as wrong as it is.

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11-28-2012, 09:08 PM
  #100
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Maybe that did happen with miller. Maybe it didn't. Who knows. Explain to me of all teams why the NYR would be strongly against the NCAA. Each situation is different, but do you see why I am questioning what happened.
The Rangers pushed for Kreider to go to the Q and pushed for Fogarty to go to the CHL route, also. They have also encouraged all of their European picks to go that route when possible.

While I disagree with the Rangers philosophy, they have generally been pushing all drafted players to go the CHL route.

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