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The Lockout (is over!!!!!)

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11-28-2012, 12:53 PM
  #501
Mystlyfe
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
when the name of your sport is different in north america than anywhere else in the world, its a weak foundation.
Hockey
Jääkiekko
Хоккей
ホッケー

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11-28-2012, 03:34 PM
  #502
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Crazy... Three teams accounted for 83% of the income.

Quote:
Overall operating income (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) almost doubled during the 2011-12 season, to $250 million. But the sport’s three most profitable teams–the Maple Leafs ($81.9 million), Rangers ($74 million), Canadians ($51.6 million)–accounted for 83% of the league’s income, while 13 of 30 teams lost money, before non-cash expenses and interest payments.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...rth-1-billion/

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11-28-2012, 03:52 PM
  #503
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Crazy... Three teams accounted for 83% of the income.



http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...rth-1-billion/
But man, those players are getting screwed! Owners won big time last lockout...

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11-28-2012, 05:39 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Hockey
Jääkiekko
Хоккей
ホッケー
of course those translate to hockey. what do they call soccer in english speaking nations? soccer??

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Old
11-28-2012, 08:32 PM
  #505
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But man, those players are getting screwed! Owners won big time last lockout...
Income and expenses can be flat out made up. They don't tell you anything. And it's plain incorrect to look at 30 different income statements from 30 different organizations and assume you can just add them up to arrive at a composite conclusion. Everyone measures and reports income and expenses differently.

Show me the cash flows.

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11-29-2012, 01:17 AM
  #506
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Income and expenses can be flat out made up. They don't tell you anything. And it's plain incorrect to look at 30 different income statements from 30 different organizations and assume you can just add them up to arrive at a composite conclusion. Everyone measures and reports income and expenses differently.

Show me the cash flows.
You don't think the NHLPA has access to the numbers, yet has not called out the NHL?

Seriously in what world would the NHLPA not have access to the numbers.

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11-29-2012, 01:36 AM
  #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DynamoAO View Post
But man, those players are getting screwed! Owners won big time last lockout...
To be fair the Canadian dollar is kind crazy right for the last couple years.

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11-29-2012, 07:49 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Liberation View Post
You don't think the NHLPA has access to the numbers, yet has not called out the NHL?

Seriously in what world would the NHLPA not have access to the numbers.
Assuming they do (which I don't necessarily believe), there's no benefit to leaking them. They're negotiating with ownership. At this point public opinion doesn't matter and probably won't matter again until the lockout threatens future revenue.

These are the first financial reports I've seen (granted I haven't been paying much attention) and it's pretty clear who leaked them. It's pretty rare for a private company's audited books to leak. With sports teams, I believe a couple nfl teams' Leaked during last years' lockout and the Marlins' books leaked after they defrauded the city of Miami.

Edit: The NHLPA didn't get financial statements in 2004. They got a second hand fairy tale put together by Arthur Levitt. The NFLPA sued to get financials in 2011. The league settled rather than hand them over. I doubt the NHLPA has anything if value to work with.


Last edited by BrooklynCapsFan: 11-29-2012 at 08:42 AM.
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11-29-2012, 12:54 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Income and expenses can be flat out made up. They don't tell you anything. And it's plain incorrect to look at 30 different income statements from 30 different organizations and assume you can just add them up to arrive at a composite conclusion. Everyone measures and reports income and expenses differently.

Show me the cash flows.
EBITDA is cash flow. Now whether its agreed upon what's true HRR is one story. Or if sports should be run with Net earnings is another.

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11-29-2012, 12:56 PM
  #510
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To be fair the Canadian dollar is kind crazy right for the last couple years.
exactly...

Hard to normalize with two currencies. Especially with one country deflating their value and the other which is tied to natural resources.

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11-29-2012, 01:23 PM
  #511
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Going from a non-capped league to a hard cap is about the biggest concession a players' union can make in professional sports.

Anyone who doesn't think the owners won big in the negotiations last lockout is clueless.

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11-29-2012, 01:25 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Going from a non-capped league to a hard cap is about the biggest concession a players' union can make in professional sports.

Anyone who doesn't think the owners won big in the negotiations last lockout is clueless.
That doesn't mean that they got everything that they want (or that what they want today should necessarily be what they wanted back then). Nor does it mean they should necessarily be the ones conceding this time around. The only thing that matters is which side has the leverage to get what they want the most.

Which isn't to say they've managed this set of negotiations particularly well, or anything, but that's a whole different animal.

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11-29-2012, 01:29 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by HSHS View Post
EBITDA is cash flow. Now whether its agreed upon what's true HRR is one story. Or if sports should be run with Net earnings is another.
It's a start but it still leaves plenty of room to play games with merchandise inventory and salary recognition on long term contracts.

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11-29-2012, 01:44 PM
  #514
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The only thing that matters is which side has the leverage to get what they want the most.
lol, seriously.

"Half of our businesses are bleeding money!"

**** you I want a raise!


You could probably count the list of owners on one hand who would give a flying **** if the NHL essentially shut its doors for good.

You mean I can get off this sinking ship without having to find a buyer?! Deal!

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11-29-2012, 02:01 PM
  #515
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I can't wait until the "New NHL" pops up and it's composed of 16 teams, 14 of which are Based in Eastern Canada and New York + Boston. Balsille will finally get the toy he's always wanted and the NHL would finally acquire another owner who gives a **** about hockey.

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11-29-2012, 04:04 PM
  #516
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Right on.

The NHL is NOT the NFL/NBA/MLB which all have TV contracts that are greater than theirs. The NHL heavily relies on gate revenues and fans who attend these games.

When a league has half the teams losing money then its in trouble and robbing Peter to pay Paul will certainly sour Peter. Why should Peter keep trying to bring in greater and greater revenues when other non profitable markets do nothing but leach??

If the players get their way it will eventually lead to contraction and then the players will be up in arms about that too and there will probably be another dispute next time around.

Its unfathomable to me how people cant understand that the Owners are the ones putting up all the capital and risk and they are NOT guaranteed profits whereas as a guy like Gomez who fails to perform still rakes in $7 million due to guaranteed contracts.

If fans really believe that its the players who sell the games and are the ones they come to see then the Players should just disband and make their own league...oh wait...that means they have to put up THEIR capital and take RISK! Not happening.

The players are truly trying to kill the Goose that laid their Golden eggs b/c they are plain stupid on the whole. Thats what you can expect with a bunch of high school level education meat heads who blindly follow and support a guy like Fehr.
Thought you might be interested in this:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...0103/211290350

I had to chuckle, the tail end of the piece features ideas that I used to post on Talk Central (European expansion, contraction vs expansion), the first Cap's message board. Of course, the members told me I was wrong.

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11-29-2012, 04:08 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Liberation View Post
You don't think the NHLPA has access to the numbers, yet has not called out the NHL?

Seriously in what world would the NHLPA not have access to the numbers.
Gotta say, Brooklyn is correct.

Geez louise, did I actually just say that? What's this world coming to when Wiz & Brooklyn are making such good points?

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11-29-2012, 04:15 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by usiel View Post
Crazy... Three teams accounted for 83% of the income.



http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...rth-1-billion/
I question this: I wonder if the Red Wings are under-reporting. You'd think that they'd be in the top 3.

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11-29-2012, 04:19 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Assuming they do (which I don't necessarily believe), there's no benefit to leaking them. They're negotiating with ownership. At this point public opinion doesn't matter and probably won't matter again until the lockout threatens future revenue.

These are the first financial reports I've seen (granted I haven't been paying much attention) and it's pretty clear who leaked them. It's pretty rare for a private company's audited books to leak. With sports teams, I believe a couple nfl teams' Leaked during last years' lockout and the Marlins' books leaked after they defrauded the city of Miami.

Edit: The NHLPA didn't get financial statements in 2004. They got a second hand fairy tale put together by Arthur Levitt. The NFLPA sued to get financials in 2011. The league settled rather than hand them over. I doubt the NHLPA has anything if value to work with.
Good post.

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11-29-2012, 06:35 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Assuming they do (which I don't necessarily believe), there's no benefit to leaking them. They're negotiating with ownership. At this point public opinion doesn't matter and probably won't matter again until the lockout threatens future revenue.

These are the first financial reports I've seen (granted I haven't been paying much attention) and it's pretty clear who leaked them. It's pretty rare for a private company's audited books to leak. With sports teams, I believe a couple nfl teams' Leaked during last years' lockout and the Marlins' books leaked after they defrauded the city of Miami.

Edit: The NHLPA didn't get financial statements in 2004. They got a second hand fairy tale put together by Arthur Levitt. The NFLPA sued to get financials in 2011. The league settled rather than hand them over. I doubt the NHLPA has anything if value to work with.


Salaries are linked to revenues, the players not having access to the numbers would be idiocy, and on top of that you are accusing the league of defrauding the players with 0 evidence.

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11-29-2012, 07:50 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by Liberation View Post


Salaries are linked to revenues, the players not having access to the numbers would be idiocy, and on top of that you are accusing the league of defrauding the players with 0 evidence.
I'm not going to explain the difference between the statement of cash flows and the income statement. Hit up investopedia if you care to.

And to reiterate, the players did not have access to the audited financial statements in 2004. It would surprise me if that has changed.

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11-29-2012, 08:26 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
I'm not going to explain the difference between the statement of cash flows and the income statement. Hit up investopedia if you care to.

And to reiterate, the players did not have access to the audited financial statements in 2004. It would surprise me if that has changed.
He proved you wrong dude. Just man up and admit it.

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11-29-2012, 08:40 PM
  #523
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Originally Posted by sonsofcain View Post
He proved you wrong dude. Just man up and admit it.
My only point is that taken alone, the income statement is not sufficient to determine the financial health of an organization. You need to see both the income and the cash flow to understand how they are using accruals, recognizing revenue, and making allowances for inventory costs. And every team will be doing these things differently (as is their right by law), so an aggregate of income statements from 30 different organizations tells you absolutely nothing.

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11-29-2012, 09:28 PM
  #524
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Sorry, I thought my sarcasm would be more clear.

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Old
11-30-2012, 02:53 PM
  #525
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I question this: I wonder if the Red Wings are under-reporting. You'd think that they'd be in the top 3.
above one of montreal, new york, or toronto? no way

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