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KHL in 5 years?

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Old
11-28-2012, 07:22 AM
  #26
Faterson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
since you mention wanting 3 Slovakian teams in the KHL, what would then happen to the Extraliga?
I don't see a problem with this. Back in the days of Czechoslovakia, 3 Slovak teams usually played in the top Czecho-Slovak league: Slovan, Košice and Trenčín. So we would simply return to that former arrangement, except that the KHL would today be what the Czecho-Slovak league was back in the 1980s. Of course, there was also a Slovak league below the Czecho-Slovak league back then, just like today there is the Slovak league below the KHL. I think it might provide additional motivation for players in the Slovak league if they knew there were 3 Slovak KHL teams potentially interested in their services. Slovan is just some 30 players, 10 of which can't play regularly. I think it would be beneficial to renew the traditional hockey rivalry among the 3 regions of Bratislava — Eastern Slovakia — Central/North-Western Slovakia. If only Slovan plays in the KHL, this is likely to be perceived as "lopsided" by many Slovaks, and as another example of "Bratislava centralism". This is ironic, because one of the specifics of Bratislava as the capital is in fact that it's located at an extreme south-western edge of Slovakia (at Slovakia's borders with Austria and Hungary), which is why Bratislava is often accused of being out of touch with the rest of the country, the "Slovakian heartland", "Slovakia proper", etc. It might clear the air considerably if each of the 3 traditional Slovak regions had its own hockey club to represent them in the KHL, so there would be no bad blood and no accusations of bias and favouritism against any particular region.

Slovakia's situation is therefore very different from the Czech Republic. If 3 Slovak teams joined the KHL and the other clubs played in the Slovak league, this would simply restore things as they used to be for decades in Czechoslovakia. It's different for Czech clubs -- it's hard to imagine that only 3 Czech clubs would join the KHL, as this would disrupt traditional rivalries among important Czech hockey clubs, of which there are more than just 3. I could possibly see 8 Czech clubs playing in the KHL (ideally, in a Czecho-Slovak division), or just 1 club like today -- but I can't envision just 3 or 4 Czech clubs joining the KHL, because this would separate them from their traditional rivals in the Czech league.

To sum up: for Slovakia as a small country, it's easier to embrace the KHL whole-heartedly, than it is for a larger country like the Czech Republic. If Slovakia has 3 regions whose hockey sensibilities should be respected, then the Czech Republic as a country that's twice as large probably has at least 6 or 8 such sensitive "regions".

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11-28-2012, 09:21 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Helo View Post
Im putting my bet that in next 5 years there still will be plenty of oil and gas to extract and by the time oil grows scarcer and scarcer next 15-20 years KHL should already have set up a profitable league.
The KHL's model doesn't seem like it'll ever be profitable and I don't think the owners really care if it is. Unless they cut salary, raise ticket prices (by huge %), expand most arenas and sign big national and international TV deals they won't be able to become profitable. The good thing about the KHL financially is that it has good sponsors that put up the money that it takes for most teams to do well. However, they need to diversify this aspect as well and expand it if they wish to ever become a profitable league.

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11-28-2012, 11:29 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by kajoo View Post
I never mentioned "huge money" rather an TV money becoming factor, because as of today, income from TV money is non-factor.
Fair enough. I guess I just don't know how much TV money it would take from places like Sweden or Germany before it becomes a "factor".

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Originally Posted by kajoo View Post
Germany having one team in KHL would be perfectly enough imo. Not hockey nation but rather an hockey friendly nation, all they need to get hooked is to achieve some sort of international success, and KHL could be the way, as their NT is terrible. Everyone there hates Bayern 24/7 but when comes to Bayern in UEFA CL, Bayern always turn into all-German team.

No idea how happy are fans with domestic league, I found their league quite good but little boring (attended some games in W-burg and N-berg) due to banned fighting, players couldnt throw punches because it would cost them fortune on fines. Some fans could be missing that as well. Not sure that KHL offers them that, but it´s rather a change for the ones who wants some change. Who is prfectly happy with what he gets can stick to domestic league, problem solved.
Not sure a German club in the KHL would raise hockey's profile in the country but anything that can help make hockey more revelant in Germany and Germany more revelant in hockey would be very good. I get that outside of soccer hockey holds its own in relation to other leagues/sports, but to see the game take the "next step" in Germany, whatever that might be, could be huge for the sport.

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11-28-2012, 11:50 AM
  #29
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I mean instead of talking about how many Slovakian or Czech teams the KHL shoud have - why not have a Extraliga again with teams of both countries? Let's say Lev Prague and Slovan Bratislava stay the only teams in KHL from this area, then teams like Kosice or Zvolen could join the Extraliga (I mean they wouldn't even need a name change for the league !) !

In some cases it wasn't all good to destroy the leagues after the seperation of countries. That's what KHL has shown.

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11-28-2012, 11:55 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by ult View Post
This year KHL is ahead of del. Percent-wise del's attendance looks atrocious - around 60%.
Yeah. It's nice to see the KHL getting better numbers every year. But it's not like places like a city like Nizhni Novgorod with 1mio+ would have better numbers than a 40,000 town Straubing.

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11-28-2012, 12:02 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
Fair enough. I guess I just don't know how much TV money it would take from places like Sweden or Germany before it becomes a "factor".
neither do I, thats why I dont mention any numbers but rather vague formulation like "factor"

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11-28-2012, 12:03 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
I mean instead of talking about how many Slovakian or Czech teams the KHL shoud have - why not have a Extraliga again with teams of both countries? Let's say Lev Prague and Slovan Bratislava stay the only teams in KHL from this area, then teams like Kosice or Zvolen could join the Extraliga (I mean they wouldn't even need a name change for the league !) !

In some cases it wasn't all good to destroy the leagues after the seperation of countries. That's what KHL has shown.
I prefer lev to stay the only KHL club in cze and cze league to stay independent. But if I had to choose beetween this cze-svk league and several clubs leaving for KHL, I prefer your idea.

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11-28-2012, 12:04 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
I mean instead of talking about how many Slovakian or Czech teams the KHL shoud have - why not have a Extraliga again with teams of both countries? Let's say Lev Prague and Slovan Bratislava stay the only teams in KHL from this area, then teams like Kosice or Zvolen could join the Extraliga (I mean they wouldn't even need a name change for the league !) !

In some cases it wasn't all good to destroy the leagues after the seperation of countries. That's what KHL has shown.
no thanks

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11-28-2012, 12:06 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
I prefer lev to stay the only KHL club in cze and cze league to stay independent. But if I had to choose beetween this cze-svk league and several clubs leaving for KHL, I prefer your idea.
I dont. It would be bloody mess, Slovan in KHL, Kosice/Trencin in Czech league, Zvolen etc in Slovak league.

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11-28-2012, 12:14 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by kajoo View Post
I dont. It would be bloody mess, Slovan in KHL, Kosice/Trencin in Czech league, Zvolen etc in Slovak league.
slovak league would be tier 3 league in such case of course. it could be a solution if the financial problems the clubs and the league as a whole have there become unbearable in the future. at least parts of svk league could survive that way. and czechs might be interested if they were facing what I said - a couple of teams wanting to leave for KHL. but it's not the case so far fortunately. it might not last very long though.

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11-28-2012, 12:40 PM
  #36
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The ideal scenario in terms of Slovakia/Czech Rep would definitely be a Czecho-Slovak division within the KHL. That means at least 3 Slovak teams and at least 6 Czech clubs (8 is more likely). What would this bring? The traditional Slovak rivalries would get renewed, the traditional Czech rivalries would get preserved, and the traditional Czecho-Slovak rivalries from the decades of Czechoslovakia would also get renewed. Plus, as a 21st century bonus, there would be all these fine top-notch KHL opponents from Russia and elsewhere.

The trouble with this, of course, is that a round-robin playing format in terms of the wider KHL would become impossible. The teams within the Czecho-Slovak KHL division would play against each other every year on a home-and-away basis (perhaps several times), naturally, but a new way of playing against opponents from other KHL divisions would have to be devised. Games against other division opponents could not be too frequent, but not too infrequent, either. Not as in football's Champions League where you only play against teams from other countries a handful of times per year -- it's not really a regular league that way.

If the rumours from several months ago are true that Mr. Medvedev contemplated the KHL to ultimately expand to include up to 64 teams from all sorts of countries, he must have been thinking of a new playing format anyway. The NHL, with 30 teams, is struggling to preserve the round-robin format of play; but round-robin becomes literally impossible as soon as there are, say, 40 teams in a league.

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11-28-2012, 12:41 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
slovak league would be tier 3 league in such case of course. it could be a solution if the financial problems the clubs and the league as a whole have there become unbearable in the future. at least parts of svk league could survive that way. and czechs might be interested if they were facing what I said - a couple of teams wanting to leave for KHL. but it's not the case so far fortunately. it might not last very long though.
I dont get promotion/relegation thing between Czech Extraliga and Slovak Extraliga, if Slovak Extraliga would be 3rd tier, what would winner of Slovak Extraliga won if there would nothing like automatic promotion to Czech Extraliga ? Automatic promotion would mean that Czech Extraliga would evolve into Czecho-Slovak competition which was on table but never happened due to refusal of Czech extraliga clubs. I dont see that 2nd tier/3rd tier thing realistic.

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11-28-2012, 12:51 PM
  #38
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Sorry guys if I might be understood wrong. I didn't mean that Slovakian teams should join the Czech league and then there would be a seperate Slovakian extraliga but to have a Czechoslovak Extraliga and the "1. Liga" would be the second highest division in both countries just as it is already (pretty similar to Czechoslovak times). It could be 12 Czech and 4 Slovakian teams at the begin and then Czech and Slovakian teams would have to play against each other for promotion.

To have 10 KHL teams from Czech Republic/Slovakia is pretty unrealistic. Don't forget that this is one of the poorest regions in Europe. And don't forget: all this is for the case that Kosice would leave.

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11-28-2012, 01:37 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Sorry guys if I might be understood wrong. I didn't mean that Slovakian teams should join the Czech league and then there would be a seperate Slovakian extraliga but to have a Czechoslovak Extraliga and the "1. Liga" would be the second highest division in both countries just as it is already (pretty similar to Czechoslovak times). It could be 12 Czech and 4 Slovakian teams at the begin and then Czech and Slovakian teams would have to play against each other for promotion.
that wouldnt make any sence now when Slovan joined KHL.


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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
To have 10 KHL teams from Czech Republic/Slovakia is pretty unrealistic. Don't forget that this is one of the poorest regions in Europe. And don't forget: all this is for the case that Kosice would leave.
I think you wanted to say in EU. One of the poorest region in Europe (Czech rep. + Slovakia) is actually one of the richest region in Eastern Europe (with Moscow, Slovenija - did I forget someone ?), and in several cases, richer than some old EU regions, namely Portugal, south Italy etc.


However, GDP per capita numbers are pretty useless when comes to hockey market - major companies are owned mostly by foreign corporations and these arent enthusiastic about sponsoring local events.


Last edited by kajoo: 11-28-2012 at 01:43 PM.
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11-28-2012, 01:56 PM
  #40
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I dont want to take your ideas, but Slovakia will not have 2 or more KHL clubs in foreseeable future.

KHL does not need more slovak teams, poor slovak teams. Slovan is enough. There is not a potential in slovak hockey market and no good players also. Next step for KHL expansion is Germany and Switzerland (dont count Italy and Croatia).

TV deals were mentioned before. Guys, you know that all revenues from TV deals go to KHL not clubs? That is a problem of KHL which should be solved soon (hope).

Discussion about profitable KHL clubs is interesting. Yes, main long-term goal is to be profitable. Or should be. On the other hand, look at discussion of some Slovan´s fans. Club sells tickets via auction. You dont have to agree with such way of selling tickets, your opinion. Other point is important - many fans dont like increasing prize for tickets (from original 10 EUR to cca 20-30 EUR). We want clubs to be in profit, but fans dont want to pay 30 EUR per ticket??? Hmm? I have no problem with 20-30 EUR per ticket, even 50 EUR. If we want profitable clubs, we have to pay for tickets more. Yes, not everybody can afford it. These fans have TV to watch games. The same in NHL.

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11-28-2012, 02:46 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by kajoo View Post
One of the poorest regions in Europe (Czech rep. + Slovakia) is actually one of the richest regions in Eastern Europe
You can't include all of Slovakia in a statement like that. There are huge regional differences within Slovakia, as far as economy goes. Eastern Slovakia is a relatively poor region, and Bratislava is not. But also within Eastern Slovakia, there's a huge difference between cities like Košice and Poprad on the one hand, and smaller towns and rural districts on the other hand.

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I dont want to take your ideas, but Slovakia will not have 2 or more KHL clubs in foreseeable future.
You're a pessimist, and I'm not. 3 Slovak KHL clubs does seem very unrealistic today, but I wouldn't rule out Košice. Just a question: about 2 years ago, would you have foreseen that Slovan would be playing in the KHL today, and play so well?

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Slovan is enough. There is not a potential in slovak hockey market and no good players also.
I strongly disagree. There are enough good Slovak players for 3 KHL teams. (Besides, no one says that Slovak KHL teams only need to be hiring Slovak players.) The trouble today is that many quality Slovak players are scattered in foreign teams.

I think one day people might start seeing the preservation of old hockey rivalries not as a matter of course, but as a privilege. For privileges, it's usually necessary to pay extra. Maybe that will one day become the litmus test for Czech, Slovak and other European hockey teams: who is able to pay extra for the privilege of preserving (or restoring) traditional hockey rivalries. The current national hockey leagues in Europe may disintegrate if stronger teams from each country decide to join an international hockey league, KHL or not.

Slovan fans right now are certainly learning the bitter lesson of what it means to have to pay extra for a privilege. Yesterday and on Monday, 3 Slovan late-December home games sold out in electronic auctions for the average ticket price of €25 (games against Ak Bars and Salavat Yulayev) and €23 (game against Neftekhimik). This means the average ticket price for Slovan home games has now roughly doubled compared to the start of the season in September. Perhaps this sort of experience awaits other European hockey clubs and their fans if they wish to keep on playing in a prestigious hockey league in future.


Last edited by Faterson: 11-28-2012 at 02:56 PM.
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11-28-2012, 03:04 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by kajoo View Post
t
I think you wanted to say in EU. One of the poorest region in Europe (Czech rep. + Slovakia) is actually one of the richest region in Eastern Europe (with Moscow, Slovenija - did I forget someone ?),
Moscow is not the richest region in Russia in terms of GDP/capita. Some oil and gas producing regions in Siberia such as Tyumen and Khanty Mansyisk are richer than Moscow. But of course they don't compare to Moscow in overall purchasing power because their populations are quite small.

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11-28-2012, 03:04 PM
  #43
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It's come a very long way. I think it's also important to note that there is now a KHL SYSTEM (MHL-VHL-KHL, KHLPA, Referee body and NT Partnership).

I think that is the biggest accomplishment of all. The fact that they could create an infrastructure IN RUSSIA for a future sustainable league (ability to develop and keep it's own talent) is quiet something. It's a huge progress from where we were with FHR / RSL days.

The good news is that it is obvious what needs to be done next and it's only a matter of time until it's accomplished.
I think this is the biggest feather in the KHL's cap, regardless of what ever else it's accomplished. The improvement in the quality of the junior program has already shown itself at the U20 level (Russia winning the Subway series and beating the OHL? Unheard of 5 years ago). Having a stable way to transition talent from the junior level to the pros and always providing a sufficient domestic option is great.

I wish more countries would adopt this kind of system. Germany for one could benefit immensely from a unified hockey system and not the DEL/DEB squabble they have now. The top two leagues are essentially becoming closed now, and the only people really suffering are the youngsters who don't always have the best situations to develop.

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11-28-2012, 03:08 PM
  #44
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You're a pessimist, and I'm not. 3 Slovak KHL clubs does seem very unrealistic today, but I wouldn't rule out Košice. Just a question: about 2 years ago, would you have foreseen that Slovan would be playing in the KHL today, and play so well?
I think it is realistic point of view but you can call me a pessimist if you want

Maybe Kosice, but not more. At horizont of 10 years. You know, you need two things to play KHL - arena and money. Only Kosice has arena. Money is another story, irrelevant if you dont have arena. East part of Slovakia is poor, it is not Bratislava .. you know what I am speaking about. This fact is against Kosice´s participation in KHL. Another, main goal of KHL is Germany and big markets, Slovakia is not the goal - one club is enough. Sponsors, tv broadcasters .. can they support 2 teams? Dont think so.

Another important point, you need to negotiate with KHL management for a few years to be able to get spot in KHL. Even Slovan was in talks with KHL for 2 or so years. Which slovak club has been in talks with KHL? None. German clubs are, Milano, Medvescak and suiss project Helvetisc are as well.

I did not predict that Slovan will play KHL, but I was sure that slovak club will play KHL sooner than later. Last year it was Poprad, unexpected, unpredictable. Now it is Slovan.

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I strongly disagree. There are enough good Slovak players for 3 KHL teams. (Besides, no one says that Slovak KHL teams only need to be hiring Slovak players.) The trouble today is that many quality Slovak players are scattered in foreign teams.

I think one day people might start seeing the preservation of old hockey rivalries not as a matter of course, but as a privilege. For privileges, it's usually necessary to pay extra. Maybe that will one day become the litmus test for Czech, Slovak and other European hockey teams: who is able to pay extra for the privilege of preserving (or restoring) traditional hockey rivalries. The current national hockey leagues in Europe may disintegrate if stronger teams from each country decide to join an international hockey league, KHL or not.

Slovan fans right now are certainly learning the bitter lesson of what it means to have to pay extra for a privilege. Yesterday and on Monday, 3 Slovan late-December home games sold out in electronic auctions for the average ticket price of €25 (games against Ak Bars and Salavat Yulayev) and €23 (game against Neftekhimik). This means the average ticket price for Slovan home games has now roughly doubled compared to the start of the season in September. Perhaps this sort of experience awaits other European hockey clubs and their fans if they wish to keep on playing in a prestigious hockey league in future.

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11-28-2012, 09:35 PM
  #45
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This year KHL is ahead of del. Percent-wise del's attendance looks atrocious - around 60%.
Yeah, but unless KHL clubs are routinely hitting 100% attendance, which would imply smaller arenas are holding attendance from increasing, I think absolute values are a more pertinent comparison.

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I think you wanted to say in EU. One of the poorest region in Europe (Czech rep. + Slovakia) is actually one of the richest region in Eastern Europe (with Moscow, Slovenija - did I forget someone ?), and in several cases, richer than some old EU regions, namely Portugal, south Italy etc.
I don't know if you forgot anyone, but you included a central European country in the list of Eastern European ones

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11-28-2012, 10:32 PM
  #46
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Don't flatter yourself... Slovenia is as "Central European" or as "Eastern European" as the Czech Republic and Slovakia. You can't dispute 40 years behind the Iron Curtain away by looking at a map.

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11-29-2012, 04:26 AM
  #47
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Well today most people see Belarus and Ukraine as the border between Central and Eastern Europe. Czech Republic, Slovakia and Slovenia now are really in the heart of Central Europe. That comes from a German perspective. At least the difference between Slovenia and Ukraine is like a complete world.

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11-29-2012, 04:37 AM
  #48
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Again, it's impossible to generalize. I'm sure some Slovak rural districts look a lot worse than, say, Kiev. Ultimately, all those labels are unimportant, but quite a few Slovaks find the label of "Eastern Europe" for Slovakia offensive, and they only accept "Central Europe". This objection makes sense, seeing as Vienna is a 40-minute ride away from the Slovak capital of Bratislava, and no one in their right mind would call Austria "Eastern Europe" or Mozart an "Eastern European composer". Labeling Slovakia, Slovenia or Czech Republic as "Eastern Europe" is mostly a vestige of prejudices from the Cold War era when all those countries were behind the Iron Curtain. Yes, we're all "ex-Eastern Block" and we're different from Austria or Germany, but that does not necessarily make us "Eastern European". If in doubt or if you're trying to be polite, just say "Central European" instead.

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11-29-2012, 05:03 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I dont want to take your ideas, but Slovakia will not have 2 or more KHL clubs in foreseeable future.

KHL does not need more slovak teams, poor slovak teams. Slovan is enough. There is not a potential in slovak hockey market and no good players also. Next step for KHL expansion is Germany and Switzerland (dont count Italy and Croatia).
what a load of nosence.

KHL had to feel like winning lotto when getting first non-soviet team from hockey-relevant country and with decent history. Because till then, all you got was artificial projects like LEV, applications from non-hockey areas (Milano) and a lot of howlers and refusals from hockey relevant countries. Slovan help KHL to look better, while KHL help Slovan to play a real league, it´s win-win for both sides. Marginalising Slovan to "another poor KHL club" is too dumb even for your standards. Get off your high horse.

Anyway, Slovan is hardly a poor team. New arena, every game sold out weeks in advance (bar Riga game, no idea why), hockey mad environment and tradition you guys can only dream about.

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TV deals were mentioned before. Guys, you know that all revenues from TV deals go to KHL not clubs? That is a problem of KHL which should be solved soon (hope).
KHL sold Slovan rights to a TV that has a potential to approach max 5-10% of all audience due to poor coverage and in addition cant sell their games via official site to non-russian speakers. While selling the right to Sport2 was a brainfart, it could be blamed on idiocy of our TVs (as we discussed elsewhere). But the latter one is kinda difficult to explain when even NHL has Slovak version of their site. Calling it a "room for improvement" is quite understatement. Every seller on ebay with hunderds of bucks turnover is capable to offer payment via paypal account nowadays, but for KHL it seems to be a problem.

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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Discussion about profitable KHL clubs is interesting. Yes, main long-term goal is to be profitable. Or should be. On the other hand, look at discussion of some Slovan´s fans. Club sells tickets via auction. You dont have to agree with such way of selling tickets, your opinion. Other point is important - many fans dont like increasing prize for tickets (from original 10 EUR to cca 20-30 EUR). We want clubs to be in profit, but fans dont want to pay 30 EUR per ticket??? Hmm? I have no problem with 20-30 EUR per ticket, even 50 EUR. If we want profitable clubs, we have to pay for tickets more. Yes, not everybody can afford it. These fans have TV to watch games. The same in NHL.
whats exactly is hmm on the fact that Slovan isnt willing to let their profit to ticket scalpers ? Because discussions/complaints/*****ing/whinning aside, ppl are obviously willing to pay increased price when every game is sell out.


Last edited by kajoo: 11-29-2012 at 05:48 AM.
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11-29-2012, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Well today most people see Belarus and Ukraine as the border between Central and Eastern Europe. Czech Republic, Slovakia and Slovenia now are really in the heart of Central Europe. That comes from a German perspective. At least the difference between Slovenia and Ukraine is like a complete world.
Mitteleuropa is german concept anyway, with Germany or german speaking element being the centerpiece of it. Both CE/EE are rather an geopolitical than geographical terms, thats why I believe this EE vs CE discussion is bs.

Have absolutely no problem with being called eastern european, dont really care about it. "Central Europe" is mostly used by ppl who want themselves distinguish from Eastern Europe. Maybe they feel some sort of superiority, or believe they have longer dicks, nah whatever.


Last edited by kajoo: 11-29-2012 at 10:22 AM.
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