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Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

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Old
11-29-2012, 03:42 AM
  #51
Theokritos
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Lowest on:
...
Bowman
Bowman has some strange choices, but I don't think he went as far as ranking himself among the Top 100.

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11-29-2012, 04:18 AM
  #52
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This just proves that it's pretty damn hard to rank players all by yourself. How long did he sit down to do this list by the way?

My guess Gretzky on 5th is because he wanted Richard up with his comparable Howe and Gretzky with his (Lemieux). Not a big deal really.

I wonder how serious he is with this list and it seems he put emphasis on older players. Maybe its a list to cause a debate? He has always been a little controversial

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11-29-2012, 04:20 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yeah i see those stats but hav'nt heard Gretzky complain about any lingering injury after that incident. But what i think i have noticed is that many soft offensive players got caught by something in the early nineties, some lesser ones even fell out of the league becouse of it. Rob Brown did'nt do as good even though playing with Lemieux. Jimmy Carson i have allready mentioned, Dan Quinn soon fully disappeared, Ed Olczyk, Andrew McBain, Mike Bullard, Daniel Marois, Craig Simpson, Gary Leeman, Tom Fergus, John Cullen and Pat Elynuik are all examples of offensive players that just did'nt make the cut in the early nineties. Something changed in the game, be it the europeans, better roleplayers, better coaching, or all of them. Gretzky was caught up too although he still became a dominant force, just not as earlier. Maybe he was injured too, i just have never heard him complain about anything.
I don't think you knew Gretzky very well if you think he was going to complain publicly about an injury or a bad back.
He simply was not the same after the Suter hit. Anyone who was watching him saw it.

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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post

I wonder how serious he is with this list and it seems he put emphasis on older players. Maybe its a list to cause a debate? He has always been a little controversial
Maybe his plate had shifted that day

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Old
11-29-2012, 04:25 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Maybe his plate had shifted that day
We will most likely never know but this is a big reason I dont usually take rankings seriously specially when its one guy making them.

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11-29-2012, 04:43 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I don't think you knew Gretzky very well if you think he was going to complain publicly about an injury or a bad back.
He simply was not the same after the Suter hit. Anyone who was watching him saw it.
You say he was injured but yet he missed no games becouse of it, if you dont mean that was the case in 1992-93. I think someone has to answer these questions if that injury really affected him. I mean where have people gotten this from if not from Gretzky himself? Simply from his stats falling off after it when he was already in a steady decline? League average PPG was also falling and what about all those examples of offensive players that obviously could'nt handle the new league?

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11-29-2012, 06:13 AM
  #56
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I'm not saying that Bowman is above criticism, but I'm definitely more inclined to listen to the point of view of a longtime coach over a random poster. This list doesn't change my opinion. I still think Gretzky was better than Lemieux. But I'd wager Bowman would have a better reason than a poster saying stuff like "Gretzky sucks because Semenko protected him."

And someone mentioned earlier, we don't know how much time he spent on it or what his criteria was. Maybe his rankings of players from the 70s is influenced by how they played against Montreal when he coached there (which may explain Perreault and Sittler ahead of Trottier). Or maybe the reason why most of the recent players on the list are from the Western Conference is because he watches mostly Chicago games these days. Nobody knows.

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11-29-2012, 07:16 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
What's Bowman's explanation for ranking Maurice Richard over Lemieux and Gretzky?
Sentimental reasons? He was a young teenager in Montreal when Maurice Richard had his heyday and that's often the age when people tend to look back on with most fondness in regards to sports. I'm sure he tried to be objective but things like that can be hard to get past.

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11-29-2012, 08:07 AM
  #58
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I'd love to see Gretzky's list, where he has 100 people tied for 1st Place. Anyway, once you've seen Gretzky in fifth-place on a list, it gets a little difficult to not throw the baby out with the bath water, you know? Great coach, just like Wayne Gretzky is a great player, but I'm not going to default to their opinion on ranking players.

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11-29-2012, 08:31 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I just picked the magazine up yesterday and they highlight on the right hand of each presenters top 100, a "let the debate begin" list of people who might be considered low to some.

Interestingly they seemed to miss Wayne at 5, hopefully there is some information behind the order.

It will make for an interesting read no doubt.

Bryan Trottier was 62 right behind George Armstrong and just ahead of Jonathan Towes and Chris Pronger.

Trotts at 62 and Bossy at 23, man would he get flamed on these boards or what eh?
hehehe. Well, Bowman has never been known for being objective regarding his favorites.

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11-29-2012, 08:42 AM
  #60
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That's a pretty odd list in a lot of ways.

Is this what Bowman comes up with after having a lot of time to contemplate his list because when asked on the radio earlier this year his opinion was different in terms of the 5 or 10 greatest players he'd seen. This is my post recalling what he said and I wish others heard the interview because it was interesting:

Quote:
Scotty Bowman was on Prime Time Sports (Fan 590 in Toronto) a few months ago (March 7th according to the broken link) to talk about Mario Lemieux and they discussed the top players of all-time. I posted a link to the interview in another thread back then but I don't think anyone noticed or listened to it.

They mentioned the usual top 4 in Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, and Orr and were looking for the the next few guys. Bowman said he'd go with Maurice Richard at #5 because he and Howe were close in his eyes but then also mentioned Harvey and... Lidstrom.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...0#post50579333

One thing is for sure, if Bowman was a poster here he'd get ridiculed intensely for some of his opinions.

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11-29-2012, 08:56 AM
  #61
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A couple of other things that stick out:

- Only 4 players (Shore, Morenz, Apps, Schmidt) that precede the Richard-era Canadiens. There's no Cyclone Taylor, no Newsy Lalonde, no Joe Malone, no Sprague Cleghorn, no Dit Clapper, no King Clancy. But he found a spot for Drew Doughty...

- Red Berenson. Not only is he questionable to be on the list at all, but he's ahead of shoo-in Hall of Famers like Al MacInnis, Tony Esposito and Brendan Shanahan. Presumably this was a case of the coaching fraternity at work.

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11-29-2012, 08:57 AM
  #62
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I saw alot of those players play and would have ranked them in a different manner, but personally, I can't think of a person in Hockey who's opinion means more to me than Scotty Bowman. It would be pretty arrogant of me to think my eye test is more meaningfull than his. He saw the game and it's players on a different level than anybody who posts here. Although I don't agree with the ranking, I respect it beyond measure.

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Old
11-29-2012, 09:13 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
You say he was injured but yet he missed no games becouse of it, if you dont mean that was the case in 1992-93. I think someone has to answer these questions if that injury really affected him. I mean where have people gotten this from if not from Gretzky himself? Simply from his stats falling off after it when he was already in a steady decline? League average PPG was also falling and what about all those examples of offensive players that obviously could'nt handle the new league?
back in those days, players didn't train as hard as they do today, so they seemed to slow down quicker. Gretz had an incredible run of points in the WHA and NHL from '78/'79 to '93/'94, but age and wear and tear just catches up with you sometimes. but you do have a good point when you say players "caught up" to Gretzky. goaltending and defense seemed to catch up, and they caught up to Mario as well, though he had to deal with cancer. seems to me that by the early 90's, the newer goalies got better, they were bigger, more athletic and had lighter equipment which seemed to help. also, defensemen that came along were also faster and more mobile.

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11-29-2012, 10:08 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
For everyone saying his list would be heckled here, I don't think (or at least I hope not) that would necessarily be the case. Everybody is going to have a minority opinion of some sort, and most of us are willing to consider it if they explain the reasons behind it.
I have a hard time believing that a list that unconventional, bereft of explanations and posted by a user with a name like AkiBerg4Evr would be anywhere near well received. Since it's actually from Scotty Bowman it's worth looking over more closely, but as you suggested some insight into his reasoning and how much time he spent on it would have been valuable.

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11-29-2012, 10:40 AM
  #65
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Gretzky at 5? Crosby at 15? Clarke at 32? Highly questionable list here for Bowman.

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11-29-2012, 10:41 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
hehehe. Well, Bowman has never been known for being objective regarding his favorites.
Thats ture but usually he has given the people he doesnt favorite a chance to prove him wrong. But I think you are right though. This is Bowmans personal favorites on a list and theres nothing wrong with that except someone chose to publish it as him ranking the best players.

My personal list would contain a hellova lot more controversial picks if I was to rank my favorites.

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11-29-2012, 10:46 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
this is where i stopped reading.

Wayne Gretzky........number.......5........

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11-29-2012, 10:47 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Gretzky at 5? Crosby at 15? Clarke at 32? Highly questionable list here for Bowman.
he is getting old, maybe he is having some problems

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11-29-2012, 11:10 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
That's true but usually he has given the people he doesn't favor a chance to prove him wrong, but I think you are right though. This is Bowman's personal favorites on a list and there's nothing wrong with that except someone chose to publish it as him ranking the best players. My personal list would contain a helluva lot more controversial picks if I were to rank my favorites.
Agreed. I feel the The Great One and Super Mario may have been slightly better than The Rocket, but I think this is just a list of his favorite Canadian players.

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11-29-2012, 11:29 AM
  #70
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If you kept me ignorant as to who wrote the list I would guess it's a Montrealer around the age of 80 years old. It's just massively in favour of O6 era guys, especially ones from Quebec/Canadiens.

That's not to say it's a bad list. Obviously people will raise eyebrows at Gretzky at 5 but as others have said...it's Scotty Bowman. That doesn't make him right but if Scotty Bowman decides that Gretz isn't as good as people think because he wasn't a two-way guy then I am going to let him make his case.

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11-29-2012, 11:37 AM
  #71
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I think a lot of this comes down to what Bowman experienced "up close and personal".

In other words, for players he coached - Which guys did he feel the most comfortable having out there at key moments? Like many coaches, defensive rocks probably gave him more comfort than offensive two-way defensemen (hence his preference for Serge Savard over Larry Robinson).

For players he coached against - Which guys did he find the hardest to shut down? Which guys did he find were the most effective in shutting his guys down?


With this in mind, some factors to consider:

1) As Blues coach in 1970, and Habs coach throughout much of the 70s, Bowman saw Orr at his absolute best and he saw Orr frequently, through the eyes of an opposing coach. There's probably nobody that realizes how tough it is to go against Prime Orr more than Scotty Bowman does.

2) Bowman was with the Sabres organization throughout the early-to-mid 80s, and was with no organization in the late 80s, so he never really had much direct competition against Wayne during Wayne's best years. On the other hand, Bowman was Red Wings coach for 9 years, starting in 93-94. He saw a fair bit of Wayne during the mid-90s, when Getzky's goal-scoring touch was in stark decline (Gretzky was still a great playmaker, but he never hit 40 goals after the 1990-91 season). Bowman's Red Wings defeated Gretzky's Blues in the 1996 playoffs, in what was probably Gretzky's poorest playoff performance ever.

3) Some of these rankings may reflect the difficulty that Bowman had in coaching certain players, in getting them to buy into his system. If you had Jacques Lemaire compile a list of the Top 100 Canadian players of all-time, I wouldn't be surprised if Lafleur was ranked lowly for similar reasons...


Coaches will always have an unique perspective, because they tend to place a very high premium on superb defensive play, have a strong preference for guys that quickly buy into systems and will go through a wall for the coach (maybe Bowman has heard good things about Crosby in this respect), and probably can't help putting a lot of added weight on how guys came off to them in direct competition.

If Bowman was a Flames coach throughout the 80s, and a Leafs coach in the 90s, you might well see different ratings here.


Long story short, I respect this list, and I greatly respect the hockey legend that compiled it. But to understand some of the more controversial sections of the list, it's important to consider Bowman's own coaching career, and what he saw "up close and personal" of all of these players.

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Old
11-29-2012, 11:38 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
That's not to say it's a bad list. Obviously people will raise eyebrows at Gretzky at 5 but as others have said...it's Scotty Bowman. That doesn't make him right but if Scotty Bowman decides that Gretz isn't as good as people think because he wasn't a two-way guy then I am going to let him make his case.
You could peel me up off of the ice after a concussion, and even if I didn't know who or where I was, I could still tell you that Scott Stevens and Martin Brodeur were better than Scott Niedermayer.

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11-29-2012, 12:19 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
I think a lot of this comes down to what Bowman experienced "up close and personal".

In other words, for players he coached - Which guys did he feel the most comfortable having out there at key moments? Like many coaches, defensive rocks probably gave him more comfort than offensive two-way defensemen (hence his preference for Serge Savard over Larry Robinson). ...
Quote:
Robinson became an almost flawless defender. Blessed with a near perfect understanding of positioning, an amazingly long reach, and physical prowess combined with a frequent mean streak, Robinson became the pre-eminent defenseman in the modern era. Every team covets a monster on the blue line who can control the games power forward by installing fear in the minds before the game even starts, yet add an offensive level that is well above average. Modern day warriors like Rob Blake, Chris Pronger, Scott Stevens and Derian Hatcher do their best to imitate Robinson, an intimidating devastator who almost never made a defensive mistake.
http://habslegends.blogspot.com/2007...-robinson.html Robinson was a better defensive player than Savard. I would describe him more as a good all around player. I've never seen him described as an "offensive" dman before.

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Old
11-29-2012, 12:27 PM
  #74
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Honestly, having Gretzky at 5 is a lot more defensible than having Wendel Clark anywhere on the list.

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11-29-2012, 12:32 PM
  #75
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Honestly, having Gretzky at 5 is a lot more defensible than having Wendel Clark anywhere on the list.
Agreed, he's barely a top 400 player. I'd take Vic Hadfield over him.

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