You seem like a Sens fan. Did you know that Kessel has scored more goals against Ottawa than any other team in the league? Especially when remembering the Spezza/Heatley/Alfredsson days when we would get destroyed by them. Those days are long gone thanks to Kessel.
And because of the Kessel trade, Leaf fans have to take pride in irrelevant little moral victories like that instead of having a potential powerhouse for years to come. Now they'll be fortunate to be a consistent 6-8 team.
And because of the Kessel trade, Leaf fans have to take pride in irrelevant little moral victories like that instead of having a potential powerhouse for years to come. Now they'll be fortunate to be a consistent 6-8 team.
I fail to see how potentially having landeskog and seguin over kessel and gardiner (because we wouldn't have signed beauchemin if we were tanking) suddenly turns the leafs into some powerhouse compared to now.
I fail to see how potentially having landeskog and seguin over kessel and gardiner (because we wouldn't have signed beauchemin if we were tanking) suddenly turns the leafs into some powerhouse compared to now.
Why do Leaf fans have to act like no other good move was possible if they didn't trade for Kessel? Besides, if you want to play your little game, then ok. If the Leafs committed to tanking right before 09-10 then it figures they would trade Tomas Kaberle when he still had a lot of value. I bet they get a prospect a lot better than Joe Colborne and a pick better than 30th.
Why do Leaf fans have to act like no other good move was possible if they didn't trade for Kessel? Besides, if you want to play your little game, then ok. If the Leafs committed to tanking right before 09-10 then it figures they would trade Tomas Kaberle when he still had a lot of value. I bet they get a prospect a lot better than Joe Colborne and a pick better than 30th.
I don't. There's a reason kaberle wasn't traded before that and it wasn't because Burke wanted to keep him around. I act like no other good moves are possible because if they were possible they would have been made. It's not as if Burke ever thought or said for a second the team at any point was a contender... Of course he was looking for good moves.
I think everyone agrees that Hamilton >>> Zibanajed. Sorry Ottawa.
I expect Hamilton to completely dominate the tournament next month. Anything short of a gold medal and I'm blaming Hamilton for all of it. After all, he's the best D prospect in the world and a franchise defenceman already way better than proven NHLers. He better be tournament allstar, tourny MVP and a gold medal winner.
I expect Hamilton to completely dominate the tournament next month. Anything short of a gold medal and I'm blaming Hamilton for all of it. After all, he's the best D prospect in the world and a franchise defenceman already way better than proven NHLers. He better be tournament allstar, tourny MVP and a gold medal winner.
Lol there's a good chance rielly plays with him. Every time one of them makes a mistake it'll be the other ones fault on half of the board
And because of the Kessel trade, Leaf fans have to take pride in irrelevant little moral victories like that instead of having a potential powerhouse for years to come. Now they'll be fortunate to be a consistent 6-8 team.
Wow, that was kinda a cheap shot. I'm answering a post talking about the Kessel trades' effect against Ottawa and you take it as irrelevant moral victory. Leafs have really good potential on the defensive end in terms of prospects and with Kessel and Lupul offence is good too. I was answering a point not making a overall assessment of the leafs future, but it's good to know you can jump in on a statement and make it a large scale issue. Way to go
Lol there's a good chance rielly plays with him. Every time one of them makes a mistake it'll be the other ones fault on half of the board
The funny part is everyone says Hamilton is the best D prospect and already a franchise defenceman. If that is true, playing with a guy like Rielly should make things easier for the both of them. Yet, if people start blaming Rielly for mistakes, that just proves Hamilton doesn't make the guys around him better, which a "franchise defenceman" probably should be doing.
Kessel trade is the only trade in nhl history where the team that received the best player (a 24 yr old 6th overall scorer at that) is accused of getting killed in the deal.
Kessel trade is the only trade in nhl history where the team that received the best player (a 24 yr old 6th overall scorer at that) is accused of getting killed in the deal.
It's the recent trend since the last CBA of prospects somehow being worth more than proven talent. As of now half the pieces involved have yet to leave junior and yet people are so decisively saying the trade is lopsided to one side.
It's the recent trend since the last CBA of prospects somehow being worth more than proven talent. As of now half the pieces involved have yet to leave junior and yet people are so decisively saying the trade is lopsided to one side.
Do you REALLY think Hamilton is going to bust? And do you REALLY think Seguin wont be a premier player in the NHL soon? Seguin has already put up 67 points, and is 20 years old.
I could see Hamilton at worst being a 2nd pairing D man who never really develops the requisite "shutdown" D skills to be a top pairing D man, but the chances of him busting? Come on, can't we be a little realistic here? He has tremendous tools.
If you're gonna use the "we win the trade until they prove it" argument, then I guess I can't argue that, but I think people using this argument need to be a little more realistic. Leaving Knight out because hes more of a secondary asset obviously.
Do you REALLY think Hamilton is going to bust? And do you REALLY think Seguin wont be a premier player in the NHL soon? Seguin has already put up 67 points, and is 20 years old.
I could see Hamilton at worst being a 2nd pairing D man who never really develops the requisite "shutdown" D skills to be a top pairing D man, but the chances of him busting? Come on, can't we be a little realistic here? He has tremendous tools.
If you're gonna use the "we win the trade until they prove it" argument, then I guess I can't argue that, but I think people using this argument need to be a little more realistic. Leaving Knight out because hes more of a secondary asset obviously.
No I don't think Hamilton will bust and no I don't think Seguin will fail to continue developing. I wasn't arguing that anyone won the trade... I said it's still far too early to declare who won a trade when half of the players haven't left junior yet. Kessel was 6th in the NHL in scoring last year as a 24 year old... on the other hand you have a very promising 20 year old who put up 67 points and a young defenceman who looks like he'll be a very good NHL player for a long time. Until we can actually see how it pans out I just don't see how you can realistically judge it... at least not even close to the way people make it out to be a fleecing.
Are you trying to say the Leafs are on the same level as Ottawa now or going forward because that's not even close to true.
I'm sorry but Ottawa does not scare me, not now or the future. Season series of Leafs vs Ottawa was 3 games a piece. They have a couple of top end guys but I don't see the depth, especially on D. Plus their prospect pool is a bit overrated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas
Do you REALLY think Hamilton is going to bust? And do you REALLY think Seguin wont be a premier player in the NHL soon? Seguin has already put up 67 points, and is 20 years old.
I could see Hamilton at worst being a 2nd pairing D man who never really develops the requisite "shutdown" D skills to be a top pairing D man, but the chances of him busting? Come on, can't we be a little realistic here? He has tremendous tools.
If you're gonna use the "we win the trade until they prove it" argument, then I guess I can't argue that, but I think people using this argument need to be a little more realistic. Leaving Knight out because hes more of a secondary asset obviously.
Once again, don't take that as the majority of Leafs fans. It seems alot of them are trying to grasp on to any leverage they have in the trade by saying Hamilton might not even make it. He will, there is no surer prospect in the league IMO.
The only thing I want to defend is people who act like we traded away these picks for nothing. Phil is still the best player in the deal right now. And if it was just for one of Seguin or Hamilton, it would be tied. The extra guy is what killed us.
Sigh if only we traded the 7th overall(Kadri) plus Kaberle at the time we would of had Kessel and Seguin.
No I don't think Hamilton will bust and no I don't think Seguin will fail to continue developing. I wasn't arguing that anyone won the trade... I said it's still far too early to declare who won a trade when half of the players haven't left junior yet. Kessel was 6th in the NHL in scoring last year as a 24 year old... on the other hand you have a very promising 20 year old who put up 67 points and a young defenceman who looks like he'll be a very good NHL player for a long time. Until we can actually see how it pans out I just don't see how you can realistically judge it... at least not even close to the way people make it out to be a fleecing.
All fair points, nothing I can really argue with.
I am just of the opinion that the chances of Hamilton busting and the chances of Seguin not developing anymore are small enough where at least Bruins fans can chalk it up as a successful trade for us.
You're right tho, anything could happen, and Kessel isn't a bad "consolation" prize, to say the least haha.
I'm sorry but Ottawa does not scare me, not now or the future. Season series of Leafs vs Ottawa was 3 games a piece. They have a couple of top end guys but I don't see the depth, especially on D. Plus their prospect pool is a bit overrated.
Once again, don't take that as the majority of Leafs fans. It seems alot of them are trying to grasp on to any leverage they have in the trade by saying Hamilton might not even make it. He will, there is no surer prospect in the league IMO.
The only thing I want to defend is people who act like we traded away these picks for nothing. Phil is still the best player in the deal right now. And if it was just for one of Seguin or Hamilton, it would be tied. The extra guy is what killed us.
Sigh if only we traded the 7th overall(Kadri) plus Kaberle at the time we would of had Kessel and Seguin.
This is what I think as well, and I guess they're technically right, until Hamilton proves anything and Seguin improves theyll still be right.
Do you REALLY think Hamilton is going to bust? And do you REALLY think Seguin wont be a premier player in the NHL soon? Seguin has already put up 67 points, and is 20 years old.
You make it seem like the people being skeptical about Hamilton and Seguin are the unreasonable ones, while the people expecting stardom for both are the reasonable ones.
The funny part is everyone says Hamilton is the best D prospect and already a franchise defenceman. If that is true, playing with a guy like Rielly should make things easier for the both of them. Yet, if people start blaming Rielly for mistakes, that just proves Hamilton doesn't make the guys around him better, which a "franchise defenceman" probably should be doing.
It'll be funny to see how they'll justify that.
This is absurd. You're trying to refute some argument that hasn't even happened on some hypothetical future scenario.
In all likelihood, Hamilton and Rielly will be paired together and be a dominant force throughout the tournament.
I'm sorry but Ottawa does not scare me, not now or the future. Season series of Leafs vs Ottawa was 3 games a piece. They have a couple of top end guys but I don't see the depth, especially on D. Plus their prospect pool is a bit overrated.
Once again, don't take that as the majority of Leafs fans. It seems alot of them are trying to grasp on to any leverage they have in the trade by saying Hamilton might not even make it. He will, there is no surer prospect in the league IMO.
The only thing I want to defend is people who act like we traded away these picks for nothing. Phil is still the best player in the deal right now. And if it was just for one of Seguin or Hamilton, it would be tied. The extra guy is what killed us.
Sigh if only we traded the 7th overall(Kadri) plus Kaberle at the time we would of had Kessel and Seguin.
Ya you're right. Leafs did lose the trade and it was the extra guy that killed us. I was feeling so much worse at the time that they picked Hamilton, then I do now. The trade itself we lost by quite a bit because even now Seguin vs Kessel is debatable even without discussing the others. But in terms of the leafs ending up becoming the better team in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas
All fair points, nothing I can really argue with.
I am just of the opinion that the chances of Hamilton busting and the chances of Seguin not developing anymore are small enough where at least Bruins fans can chalk it up as a successful trade for us.
You're right tho, anything could happen, and Kessel isn't a bad "consolation" prize, to say the least haha.
Your opinion is more than reasonable because you are thinking from the Boston perspective, where their future looks way better with that trade. As opposed to others (WoT ) who like to have narrow-minded view of the Leafs perspective thinking just because the Leafs lost the deal, the organization is doomed for the next decade without any basis except for the fact we don't have Seguin or Hamilton...and Knight.
Could've (and did) say that Carter was going to be nothing in Columbus. Pairing him with Rick Nash made no sense and between the 8th overall pick and Voracek, it was a steal.
Not that Boston didn't win as well, but Toronto got their best player out of it.
Kessel trade is the only trade in nhl history where the team that received the best player (a 24 yr old 6th overall scorer at that) is accused of getting killed in the deal.
You make it seem like the people being skeptical about Hamilton and Seguin are the unreasonable ones, while the people expecting stardom for both are the reasonable ones.
You didn't answer my questions.
"Stardom" is different than "not busting," dont put words in my mouth. For what reason are you more "skeptical" of Hamilton and Seguin than thinking theyll be "stars?" Was it Seguins 67 points as a 19/20 year old or Hamiltons CHL D man of the year? Both have improved immensely since they became part of the Bruins organization too.
Like the Leafs poster said above, some (including you it seems), are holding onto this notion that Hamilton could "still be a bust" theoretically. Do you REALLY think hes going to bust? Lol. I could see him not turning into a franchise d man, but he most certainly has the skillset to be a solid top four defensman. Hell, I think Riellys bust potential is along the same lines as Hamiltons.
"Stardom" is different than "not busting," dont put words in my mouth. For what reason are you more "skeptical" of Hamilton and Seguin than thinking theyll be "stars?" Was it Seguins 67 points as a 19/20 year old or Hamiltons CHL D man of the year? Both have improved immensely since they became part of the Bruins organization too.
Like the Leafs poster said above, some (including you it seems), are holding onto this notion that Hamilton could "still be a bust" theoretically. Do you REALLY think hes going to bust? Lol. I could see him not turning into a franchise d man, but he most certainly has the skillset to be a solid top four defensman. Hell, I think Riellys bust potential is along the same lines as Hamiltons.
well what if they turn out like....
..... Jack Johnson and Devin Setoguchi?
..... Ryan Whitney and Milan Michalek?
..... Jay Bouwmeester and P-M Bouchard?
.... Cam Barker and Nathan Horton?
Are those busts? I dunno, but do you think the Leafs are going to cry getting a 24 year old 6th overall scorer then?
) who like to have narrow-minded view of the Leafs perspective thinking just because the Leafs lost the deal, the organization is doomed for the next decade without any basis except for the fact we don't have Seguin or Hamilton...and Knight.
