HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Lidstrom's place in history - ALL DISCUSSIONS OF LIDSTROM'S "ALL TIME RANKING" HERE

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-28-2012, 09:32 PM
  #301
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 7,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
The 50's

Prime Red Kelly
Prime Pronovost
Prime Carl Brewer
Prime Tim Horton
Prime Fern Flaman
Prime Doug Harvey
Prime Tom Johnson
Prime Bill Gadsby
Prime Pierre Pilote

Thats pretty deep for a 6 team league.

30s (not as deep but still pretty good)

Prime Eddie Shore
Prime D/F Clapper/Siebert
Prime Seibert
Prime Goodfellow
Prime Hollett
Prime King Clancy

70s

Prime Brad Park
Prime Bobby Orr
Prime Denis Potvin (though his prime should also be count in the 80s)
Prime Börje Salming (same as potvin)
Prime Lapointe
Prime Savard
Prime Robinson
Prime Stackhouse

Edit: Might have missed someone, I dont know.
I don't think that 70s quite stacks up. Like you said, Potvin and Salming really belong in the 80s. Robinson and Orr hardly overlap. Obviously Park and Robinson are top-20 all time, but Lapointe and Savard (IMO) are a lot more similar to a Niedermayer/Rob Blake kind of legacy.

From my understanding, Harvey is similar to Lidstrom in terms of his competition. Other than Kelly, who else was challenging him?

Bourque was competing with another top-6 guy in Potvin, as well as Robinson and Chelios. Coffey is probably not top-15 on many all-time lists, but he is the greatest offensive defenseman next to Orr.

OrrNumber4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 02:57 AM
  #302
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
From my understanding, Harvey is similar to Lidstrom in terms of his competition. Other than Kelly, who else was challenging him?

Bourque was competing with another top-6 guy in Potvin, as well as Robinson and Chelios. Coffey is probably not top-15 on many all-time lists, but he is the greatest offensive defenseman next to Orr.
Johnson won it in '59, Pilote were always a threat. The thing is Harvey were better than Bourque so his competition looks weaker at first glimpse.

Bourque never really competed Potvin except for in '84 Potvin had injury problems and never really got back to his pre-80s form. Isles and Potvin were smart and rested him for the playoffs.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 03:06 AM
  #303
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Johnson won it in '59, Pilote were always a threat. The thing is Harvey were better than Bourque so his competition looks weaker at first glimpse.

Bourque never really competed Potvin except for in '84 Potvin had injury problems and never really got back to his pre-80s form. Isles and Potvin were smart and rested him for the playoffs.
You make a good case but I still think the number of HoF/top 25 D-men in their absolute primes and/or also having career years was never more concentrated than in the mid 80's - mid 90's time frame.

It was crazy.
Look at the Canadian '91 Canada Cup roster of D-men...Coffey, Stevens, MacInnis, Murphy, Tinordi, Smith and Desjardins. Bourque was injured and couldn't even play and it's still freakin amazing.
Now the Yanks team...Chelios, Suter, Leetch, Hatcher, Weinrich, Wolanin and Johnson.
I haven't even mentioned the other teams but they were loaded too.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-29-2012 at 03:16 AM.
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 03:09 AM
  #304
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You make a good case but I still think the number of HoF/top 25 D-men in their absolute primes and/or also having career years was never more concentrated than in the mid 80's - mid 90's time frame.
I don't completely disagree with you but I think 50's were pretty much on par with the late 80's when it comes to great defensemen. Now offensively nothing compares to the late 80's.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 06:23 AM
  #305
Theokritos
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,004
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Look at the Canadian '91 Canada Cup roster of D-men...Bourque was injured and couldn't even play
Side note: Bourque was healthy, he declined because he wanted to spend time with his family.

Theokritos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 06:33 AM
  #306
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,825
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Johnson won it in '59, Pilote were always a threat. The thing is Harvey were better than Bourque so his competition looks weaker at first glimpse.

Bourque never really competed Potvin except for in '84 Potvin had injury problems and never really got back to his pre-80s form. Isles and Potvin were smart and rested him for the playoffs.
Pilote was a rookie in 1957, didn't receive significant Norris consideration until 1959, and didn't finish top 5 in Norris voting until 1960.

1957 was the last year Kelly received significant Norris consideration, and in 1960 he was traded to Toronto and permanently converted to center.

Pilote and Kelly weren't competition for Harvey at the same time.

I agree with you that Potvin wasn't quite in his regular season prime anymore (partly due to injuries) when Bourque came into the league, but he was at least getting some consideration. By the time Bourque was winning Norrises, Potvin had retired.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-29-2012 at 06:45 AM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 06:52 AM
  #307
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Pilote was a rookie in 1957, didn't receive significant Norris consideration until 1959, and didn't finish top 5 in Norris voting until 1960.

1957 was the last year Kelly received significant Norris consideration, and in 1960 he was traded to Toronto and permanently converted to center.

Pilote and Kelly weren't competition for Harvey at the same time.

I agree with you that Potvin wasn't quite in his regular season prime anymore (partly due to injuries) when Bourque came into the league, but he was at least getting some consideration.
You are right about Pilote. I misplaced him history but we still Gadsby, Goldham (who is underrated because he only had one stand out offensive season) and to lesser extent Morrison, Howell and Mortson. This is what I would say great depth for a 6 team league.

We also have to take the available amount of players.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 07:39 AM
  #308
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,562
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Why in the hell are you repeating the TOI breakdowns from '02 that both me and Quoipourquoi had to post earlier in the thread to set you straight about them in the first place?
Your assertion was regarding the PP, it's pretty clear that the coach had Lidstrom out there more than Chelios in all situations.

Hey he only won the cup what does he know when a couple of guys here remember different eh?

Hardyvan123 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 07:55 AM
  #309
danincanada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And you don't think Bourque's declining offense had anything to do with the fact that he was 38 freakin years old playing in his 19th season?

And it was his ability to produce offense at even strength that declined with age, not his ability to QB a PP.
Bourque's offense declined when he was 36/37 years old ('96/97 Season), not 38. Age was a factor but it's more than a coincidence that this also happened when the DPE began. I know you think adjusted stats are "crap" but you must admit Bourque was fortunate to play most of his career in a high scoring league and gets the excuse of aging when the DPE began.

Has anyone ever looked into whether it was more difficult for defenseman to compile ES points during the DPE? Other than the obvious decline in overall offense, of course. The powerplay typically becomes a bigger factor when goals are harder to come by, such as the playoffs, so I wonder how the DPE affected this.

danincanada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 08:19 AM
  #310
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Bourque's offense declined when he was 36/37 years old ('96/97 Season), not 38. Age was a factor but it's more than a coincidence that this also happened when the DPE began. I know you think adjusted stats are "crap" but you must admit Bourque was fortunate to play most of his career in a high scoring league and gets the excuse of aging when the DPE began.

Has anyone ever looked into whether it was more difficult for defenseman to compile ES points during the DPE? Other than the obvious decline in overall offense, of course. The powerplay typically becomes a bigger factor when goals are harder to come by, such as the playoffs, so I wonder how the DPE affected this.
Most defensemen scored more on the PP during '98 than on ES including Bourque, Macinnis, Chelios and Leetch. Niedermeyer and Macinnis were almost 50% though.

Edit: Without looking too close it seems to be the same in '99 and '00.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 11:43 AM
  #311
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
So tell me, why did a young Stevens get screwed in those years? Nothing to do with those years being the most talented and deepest field of D-man we have ever seen

I don't even know what to say to this, I'm too busy laughing. Coffey's prime was only in the early to mid 80's....
Coffey's Norris finishes:
1982: 3rd
1983: 5th
1984: 2nd
1985: 1st
1986: 1st
1987: 5th
1988: 7th
1989: 2nd
1990: 4th
1991: 5th
1992: none
1993: 9th
1994: 7th (tied with Lidstrom, Ozolinsh, Murphy)
1995: 1st
1996: 5th

Quote:
Like I said, he was a better overall D-man but he wasn't a better D-man or player. He has better finishes as he got older because competition levels came down from the insane levels he faced when he was younger.
So what you're saying is that MacInnis only did well in later finishes because of poor competition. Poor competition like an older Bourque, Stevens who received a lot of media attention in the 90s and early 00s for "playing his best hockey late in his career", a well as prime Lidstrom and Pronger. Pronger only won a Hart trophy, and Lidstrom only won seven Norrises.

Quote:
It's like you're writing a book here with the working title "Eva unit zero's Revisionist Guide to 80's and 90's D-men".
It will be sold in the Fiction section.
Yep, revisionist guide. It's revisionist history that had Doug Wilson finishing third in Norris voting in 1990 while Stevens, Leetch, and Murphy received a combined zero votes and Chelios received only one second place vote. Murphy was third in 1987 before going four straight years with no votes before popping up in 1991-92 and hitting 5th place. In that same span: Stevens missed out in 1990. Leetch got a couple no-shows in 87 and 88, scrap votes in 89 and 90, and then made a 4th place in 1991. Housley missed 87, 88, 89, and 91. Chelios missed in 1987, MacInnis missed in 1988. This is while such elite defensemen as Wilson, Gary Suter, Craig Ludwig, Mario Marois, Rick Green, Ulf Samuelsson, Craig Hartsburg, Kevin Hatcher, Brad McCrimmon, James Patrick, Kevin Lowe, Paul Cavallini, Al Iafrate, Jamie Macoun, and J.J. Daigneault were getting votes, sometimes at pretty serious levels. Even Larry Robinson, Rod Langway, and Denis Potvin getting votes in those years is in that range; nobody could seriously consider them to be elite defensemen at that point.

You look back at the names and think of their best days, without forgetting the lean years any of those defensemen went through in their primes. You are saying "I remember all of these guys as stars, how could the current/recent crop have been as good in any given year when they're all so inconsistent?"

How many of those guys would you consider to be top ten or top five defensemen at any point between 86-87 to 91-92, based on your knowledge and recollection? How would you compare THAT group of 18 defensemen to the group after the top seven Lidstrom had to deal with from, say, 2001-2006?

Let's see. Here's your top eight, for reference:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Prime Bourque
Prime Coffey
Prime Leetch
Prime Stevens
Prime Chelios
Prime MacInnis
Prime Murphy
Prime Housley
Prime Lidstrom
Prime Niedermayer
Prime Pronger
Prime Chara
Prime Blake
Prime Gonchar
Prime Zubov
Prime Schneider
Prime D.Hatcher
Prime Zubov
Prime Aucoin
Prime Jovanovski
Prime Rafalski
Prime Desjardins
Prime Numminen
Prime Foote
Prime Kaberle
Prime Redden
Prime Ohlund
Prime McCabe
Prime Boyle
Post-prime Bourque
Post-prime Stevens
Post-prime Chelios
Post-prime Leetch
Post-prime MacInnis

Looking at that list, Lidstrom's competition doesn't look so weak does it?

Quote:
And you don't think Bourque's declining offense had anything to do with the fact that he was 38 freakin years old playing in his 19th season?
Maybe that had an effect on Lidstrom too, as his scoring dropped at 38. And then he won the Norris at 40.

Longevity point for Lidstrom.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 11:47 AM
  #312
Doctor No
Mod Supervisor
Retired?
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 23,656
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
It's like you're writing a book here with the working title "Eva unit zero's Revisionist Guide to 80's and 90's D-men".
It will be sold in the Fiction section.
I hate bringing this up in every single thread on the history board.

This is an example of a personal attack. It's not the only one in this thread (although it's the best recent example here).

We do not allow personal attacks.

I'm getting so sick and tired of repeating myself, and I *will* be giving out infractions, thread bans, and whatever else that I need to do to clean this section up.

Consider this the last warning that any of you will receive.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 12:03 PM
  #313
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,063
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Maybe that had an effect on Lidstrom too, as his scoring dropped at 38. And then he won the Norris at 40.

Longevity point for Lidstrom.
Bourque's 40 year old season, when he finished second to Lidstrom, was better than Lidstrom's 40 year old season. Strangely enough, it's mainly because he was the better defensive player at that point.

JackSlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 12:07 PM
  #314
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Bourque's offense declined when he was 36/37 years old ('96/97 Season), not 38. Age was a factor but it's more than a coincidence that this also happened when the DPE began. I know you think adjusted stats are "crap" but you must admit Bourque was fortunate to play most of his career in a high scoring league and gets the excuse of aging when the DPE began.

Has anyone ever looked into whether it was more difficult for defenseman to compile ES points during the DPE? Other than the obvious decline in overall offense, of course. The powerplay typically becomes a bigger factor when goals are harder to come by, such as the playoffs, so I wonder how the DPE affected this.
He was injured for 1/4 of the season in 96/97 and still potted 19 goals in just 62 games...

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 12:26 PM
  #315
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Coffey's Norris finishes:
1982: 3rd
1983: 5th
1984: 2nd
1985: 1st
1986: 1st
1987: 5th
1988: 7th
1989: 2nd
1990: 4th
1991: 5th
1992: none
1993: 9th
1994: 7th (tied with Lidstrom, Ozolinsh, Murphy)
1995: 1st
1996: 5th
Norris votes are NOT the be end all for determining a players prime.
Injuries and/or trades can and has kept D-men out of the Norris voting during their primes.
When a D-man is getting 100+ points (something that has only been done by 5 players ever) in 89/90, 90+ in 90/91 and 87 in 92/93...

Quote:
So what you're saying is that MacInnis only did well in later finishes because of poor competition
Yes!

Quote:
Yep, revisionist guide. It's revisionist history that had Doug Wilson finishing third in Norris voting in 1990 while Stevens, Leetch, and Murphy received a combined zero votes and Chelios received only one second place vote. Murphy was third in 1987 before going four straight years with no votes before popping up in 1991-92 and hitting 5th place. In that same span: Stevens missed out in 1990. Leetch got a couple no-shows in 87 and 88, scrap votes in 89 and 90, and then made a 4th place in 1991. Housley missed 87, 88, 89, and 91. Chelios missed in 1987, MacInnis missed in 1988. This is while such elite defensemen as Wilson, Gary Suter, Craig Ludwig, Mario Marois, Rick Green, Ulf Samuelsson, Craig Hartsburg, Kevin Hatcher, Brad McCrimmon, James Patrick, Kevin Lowe, Paul Cavallini, Al Iafrate, Jamie Macoun, and J.J. Daigneault were getting votes, sometimes at pretty serious levels. Even Larry Robinson, Rod Langway, and Denis Potvin getting votes in those years is in that range; nobody could seriously consider them to be elite defensemen at that point.

You look back at the names and think of their best days, without forgetting the lean years any of those defensemen went through in their primes. You are saying "I remember all of these guys as stars, how could the current/recent crop have been as good in any given year when they're all so inconsistent?"

How many of those guys would you consider to be top ten or top five defensemen at any point between 86-87 to 91-92, based on your knowledge and recollection? How would you compare THAT group of 18 defensemen to the group after the top seven Lidstrom had to deal with from, say, 2001-2006?

Let's see. Here's your top eight, for reference:


Prime Lidstrom
Prime Niedermayer
Prime Pronger
Prime Chara
Prime Blake
Prime Gonchar
Prime Zubov
Prime Schneider
Prime D.Hatcher
Prime Zubov
Prime Aucoin
Prime Jovanovski
Prime Rafalski
Prime Desjardins
Prime Numminen
Prime Foote
Prime Kaberle
Prime Redden
Prime Ohlund
Prime McCabe
Prime Boyle
Post-prime Bourque
Post-prime Stevens
Post-prime Chelios
Post-prime Leetch
Post-prime MacInnis

Looking at that list, Lidstrom's competition doesn't look so weak does it?
Yes, it does!
His competition was wildly inconsistent or over 35 years old or just plain no where near as good as the pack of D-men listed for the late 80's/early 90's.


Quote:
Maybe that had an effect on Lidstrom too, as his scoring dropped at 38. And then he won the Norris at 40.

Longevity point for Lidstrom.
More like a point for just how weak and extremely average the field was.
Lidstrom's 10/11 season doesn't even get close to a top 5 finish in any year of the 90's.
And it wasn't even as good as Bourque's 40 year old final season.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-29-2012 at 12:34 PM.
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 12:46 PM
  #316
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Lidstrom's 10/11 season doesn't even get close to a top 5 finish in any year of the 90's.
And it wasn't even as good as Bourque's 40 year old final season.
Lidstrom scored more at 40 than Bourque did, both absolute and adjusted.

In fact, his adjusted numbers from that year stack up pretty well against many of Bourque's PRIME seasons.

A clearly declined Lidstrom was equivalent or only slightly worse than Bourque offensively. And better defensively.

At this point it's like arguing Brimsek v. Hasek. One was clearly the best in the league over his career span in that he was considered one of the best from start to finish. The other had one of the best primes ever at his position, but was not as strong outside of his prime.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 12:52 PM
  #317
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Most defensemen scored more on the PP during '98 than on ES including Bourque, Macinnis, Chelios and Leetch. Niedermeyer and Macinnis were almost 50% though.

Edit: Without looking too close it seems to be the same in '99 and '00.
High Even Strength scoring by D-men is not a common thing to begin with.
You will see the same names come up over and over again, Orr, Coffey, Potvin, Bourque, Housley, Leetch and now Karlsson.
Stevens had the one big year at ES with NJ but that was it. MacInnis, Lidstrom and Chelios were all mostly PP scorers.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 12:55 PM
  #318
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 33,089
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
At this point it's like arguing Brimsek v. Hasek. One was clearly the best in the league over his career span in that he was considered one of the best from start to finish. The other had one of the best primes ever at his position, but was not as strong outside of his prime.
No, I'd really say these players don't break down like that at all.

tarheelhockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 01:02 PM
  #319
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Lidstrom scored more at 40 than Bourque did, both absolute and adjusted.

In fact, his adjusted numbers from that year stack up pretty well against many of Bourque's PRIME seasons.

A clearly declined Lidstrom was equivalent or only slightly worse than Bourque offensively. And better defensively.
Oh well, if Adjusted Stats says that a 40 year old Lidstrom is as good offensively as a prime Bourque, it must be true

Quote:
At this point it's like arguing Brimsek v. Hasek. One was clearly the best in the league over his career span in that he was considered one of the best from start to finish. The other had one of the best primes ever at his position, but was not as strong outside of his prime.
Hahahaha!
Ummm...Bourque was the one that was clearly considered one of the best in the league from start to finish AND he was the one with one of the best primes ever at his position.
By the time Lidstrom won his first Norris at 31, he had 4 All-star nods. Bourque by 31 had 4 Norris and 12 All-star nods.
Lidstrom would go on to win 6 more Norris and 8 more All-star nods. Bourque won another Norris and had 7 more all-star nods.

19 All-star nods in 22 season to 12 All-star nods in 20 seasons.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-29-2012 at 01:10 PM.
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 01:27 PM
  #320
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,063
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yes!
No! MacInnis' big seasons later in his career (1999, 2003) were as good as anything else he did. You can't really attribute his all star placements to poor competition in those years, they were just great seasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Lidstrom scored more at 40 than Bourque did, both absolute and adjusted.

In fact, his adjusted numbers from that year stack up pretty well against many of Bourque's PRIME seasons.

A clearly declined Lidstrom was equivalent or only slightly worse than Bourque offensively. And better defensively.
I'm not sure that by the end of their careers Bourque wasn't the better player defensively and Lidstrom wasn't better offensively. Bourque slipped a level offensively in the late 90s, just as Lidstrom slipped defensively in his last few years.

JackSlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 01:34 PM
  #321
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
No! MacInnis' big seasons later in his career (1999, 2003) were as good as anything else he did. You can't really attribute his all star placements to poor competition in those years, they were just great seasons.
I agree that they were great seasons, but he definitely had the benefit of the microscope being on him in those two seasons with Pronger's injuries.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 03:52 PM
  #322
DanZ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 7,765
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Oh well, if Adjusted Stats says that a 40 year old Lidstrom is as good offensively as a prime Bourque, it must be true



Hahahaha!
Ummm...Bourque was the one that was clearly considered one of the best in the league from start to finish AND he was the one with one of the best primes ever at his position.
By the time Lidstrom won his first Norris at 31, he had 4 All-star nods. Bourque by 31 had 4 Norris and 12 All-star nods.
Lidstrom would go on to win 6 more Norris and 8 more All-star nods. Bourque won another Norris and had 7 more all-star nods.

19 All-star nods in 22 season to 12 All-star nods in 20 seasons.
7 Norrises in 20 seasons to 5 Norrises in 22 seasons...

DanZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 04:16 PM
  #323
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
7 Norrises in 20 seasons to 5 Norrises in 22 seasons...
Top 5 Norris finishes...
Bourque 5X1, 6X2, 4X3, 4X4 19 total
Lidstrom 7X1, 3X2, 1X3, 1X4 1X5 13 total

Eliminating same finishes..
Bourque 3X2, 3X3, 3X4
Lidstrom 2X1, 1X5

We all know how far trophy counting gets one though. I mean OV has 2 Harts to Crosby's 1 so obviously OV is the better player right and Henrik Sedin must be Crosby's equal

Lidstrom is to Norris Trophies as Gartner is to Goals.


All-star nods...
Bourque 13X1, 6X2
Lidstrom 10X1, 2X2

Eliminating same finishes...
Bourque 3X1, 4X2

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 09:20 PM
  #324
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,562
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
I don't think that 70s quite stacks up. Like you said, Potvin and Salming really belong in the 80s. Robinson and Orr hardly overlap. Obviously Park and Robinson are top-20 all time, but Lapointe and Savard (IMO) are a lot more similar to a Niedermayer/Rob Blake kind of legacy.
You are right and Orr only overlaps Potvin, salming, robinson ect for a year or two.

Quote:
From my understanding, Harvey is similar to Lidstrom in terms of his competition. Other than Kelly, who else was challenging him?
Exactly and Kelly only overlapped Harvey, when he finally peaked for a couple of seasons and Pilote and Horton didn't show up on the Norris scene until Kelly was totally out of it really.

Quote:
Bourque was competing with another top-6 guy in Potvin, as well as Robinson and Chelios. Coffey is probably not top-15 on many all-time lists, but he is the greatest offensive defenseman next to Orr.
Once again overlap is important here with Potvin fading and missing games in the early 80's, Robinson was fading too, quite a bit offensively when Bourque arrived.

Hardyvan123 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 09:43 PM
  #325
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,562
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Bourque's 40 year old season, when he finished second to Lidstrom, was better than Lidstrom's 40 year old season. Strangely enough, it's mainly because he was the better defensive player at that point.
Bourque also found the fountain of youth, well the situation in Colorado, that helped him get his all star berth which was his 2nd (99) since 96.

Had Bourque not signed with Colorado, it's highly unlikely that anyone would remember his age 40 season as anything but his last IMO.

Full credit to him in thriving in that ideal situation but for all of the talk of Lidstroms stacked teams we should keep Bourques scenery and buck against his downward trend in perspective.

Hardyvan123 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:52 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.