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Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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11-28-2012, 04:13 PM
  #126
Hammer Time
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
ee and that is their big question mark imo. Can russia goalies match up to Canada ? I don't think they can not when we can throw fluery ward price etc in net. Canada aside though russia can't match miller thomas howard or lundquivst or kipper or backstrom. Going into 2014 russia doesn't have the goalies other teams do. I could easily seem not getting a medal again
Russia's strength will be in forwards. It always is. As long as they have a good enough (not the best) defence and goaltending they can win, and they also have the advantage of home ice. Kiprusoff and Thomas are aging, and Varlamov is pretty good - he's in the tier of "good NHL goalie" along with Backstrom, Fleury, and Howard. In any case, Canada can't match the USA or Sweden for goaltending at this point either.

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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
I don't know, my friend.

When I see Russian teams play international games, I see teams that are very(!) opportunistic offensively but who are outplayed overall.
I don't think Russia is as strong and deep as Russian fans seem to think.

I also see a constant lack of talent on the back end and in goal.

By 2018, OV, Malkin, Kovalchuck and Datsyuk will be old and I don't see players, at that elite level, able to fill their shoes.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Yakupov ... lots of potential there. Who knows where they'll be by 2018?

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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I never made the argument that Russia was No. 1 in world hockey. I said that I believe things are headed in that direction, but I was careful to say that they're not there yet. However, I do think Russia will have a good chance to claim the World title at Sochi.
We'll see about that. 2014 will be exciting!

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11-28-2012, 04:41 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by SH15 View Post
Best-On-Best Winners since '76 Canada Cup

1976 - Canada
1981 - Soviet Union
1984 - Canada
1987 - Canada
1991 - Canada
1996 - USA

1998 - Czech Rep
2002 - Canada
2004 - Canada
2006 - Sweden
2010 - Canada

Ok then, let's remove all Canada Cups. Now Russia has ZERO titles in best on best tournaments. LOL. Is that better for your argument? Let's try this...

Last 10 years

Canada - 2 Olympic Gold, 5 WJC
Russia - 0 Olympic Gold, 2 WJC

What exactly IS the argument to state that Russia is currently the top hockey nation? I'm just not seeing it. What is supposed to impress the hockey world? I'm shocked Russia hasn't ever won a best on best tournament to be honest, but the facts speak for themselves.

A country that has NEVER won a best on best can't possibly be considered the top hockey nation. 2014 is their chance at home to change that. Just a bit of pressure on them...
At the very least the 1991 Canada Cup can't be held against Russia. The team sent was not even remotely close to the best possible. There is another issue of course, which is that factors from decades ago have no bearing on who is the top country today.

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11-28-2012, 05:47 PM
  #128
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If you are looking to determine which country produces the best players the Olympics are a bad indicator, the WJC are even worse and the WC are completely useless. By far the most reliable measure for present talent is from performance in league play. For the future the best indicator is the over all number of players under the age of 20 playing in each nation.

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11-28-2012, 06:24 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by um View Post
on paper canada is the best clearly, but in actual competitions russia seems to be the best lately
On what paper? Nothing in sports is decided on paper. An even if I can't see why Canada is better than Russia.

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11-28-2012, 06:25 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
If you are looking to determine which country produces the best players the Olympics are a bad indicator, the WJC are even worse and the WC are completely useless. By far the most reliable measure for present talent is from performance in league play. For the future the best indicator is the over all number of players under the age of 20 playing in each nation.
Every league in the world is less competitive than most international tournaments...

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11-28-2012, 06:34 PM
  #131
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I like the fact that a lot of canadian fans are binded by the myth of their dominance. Most of all I like the constructed proof schemes always taking different tournaments ant time spans to make Canada look as a clear winner.

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11-28-2012, 07:04 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
On what paper? Nothing in sports is decided on paper. An even if I can't see why Canada is better than Russia.
So do you think Russia is better? If so you should explain why.

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11-28-2012, 07:27 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Alberta tough View Post
So do you think Russia is better? If so you should explain why.
I'm curious to see the defencemen.

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11-28-2012, 08:26 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
If you are looking to determine which country produces the best players the Olympics are a bad indicator, the WJC are even worse and the WC are completely useless. By far the most reliable measure for present talent is from performance in league play. For the future the best indicator is the over all number of players under the age of 20 playing in each nation.
I don't think North Americans adapt as well to the culture shock of the khl as the Russia s have here.

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11-28-2012, 09:30 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
Every league in the world is less competitive than most international tournaments...
the problem is that as it stands now international tournaments are way to short and infrequent to be a reliable indicator of national talent. the smaller the sample size the higher the margin for error

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11-28-2012, 09:34 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
On what paper? Nothing in sports is decided on paper. An even if I can't see why Canada is better than Russia.
And if you know anything about hockey you would realize that teams with good systems beat teams with superior individual talent all the time, happens every year in the playoffs.

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11-28-2012, 09:36 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
I like the fact that a lot of canadian fans are binded by the myth of their dominance. Most of all I like the constructed proof schemes always taking different tournaments ant time spans to make Canada look as a clear winner.
the reason Canada is dominant is because of the sheer number of people we have playing the game. Why would you expect it to be any different?

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11-28-2012, 09:40 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
I don't think North Americans adapt as well to the culture shock of the khl as the Russia s have here.
This may be true although ironically one of the best if not the best player in the KHL over the last 5 years has been Kevin Dallman. Anyway since the talent pool feeding the NHL is much much deeper than any other league I would weight NHL performance accordingly.

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11-29-2012, 02:41 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
This may be true although ironically one of the best if not the best player in the KHL over the last 5 years has been Kevin Dallman. Anyway since the talent pool feeding the NHL is much much deeper than any other league I would weight NHL performance accordingly.
No doubt, Dallman has done well, much like many Russian players succeed in the NHL.

However using the league argument invariably biases the argument against one side since only the Russians and Europeans have to deal with major cultural issues that North Americans never face, except maybe in Montreal.

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11-29-2012, 05:05 AM
  #140
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Why are people counting Canada and World Cups here?

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11-29-2012, 05:15 AM
  #141
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I find this whole discussion wildly amusing... especially the claims by some at the apparent Canadian arrogance written on a thread where the OP is not a Canadian wanting and ready to claim, or seeking affirmation that his country is the predominate world hockey power... but generally it always comes back to "Canadians are arrogant SOBs. ))) I love it. the irony was not at all lost on me...

I remember reading last year with regards to the World Junior Championship in a Russian newspaper, the sold out Gold Medal game, 19,000 Canadians to see a game not involving a Canadian team and how the Russian journalist instead of saying, wow that's pretty impressive, instead, it was " Yes, so what... it's only due to Canadian arrogance anyway that the game was sold-out; they are just so full of their own self-importance they automatically assumed Canada would be in the gold medal game."

Interesting to point out, that of the previous 30 World Junior Hockey Championships, Canada has played in the gold medal game 23 times, winning 15 of them, so it has little to do with arrogance, but level of expectation by Canadian fans based on history...

another flaw in the OP's original argument was at the very least at Best on Best tournaments, the previous two Olympics, the score is 1 - 1. Canada got beat in Torino and Russia lost in Vancouver... but isn't 2006 a rather meaningless victory since it resulted in nothing, no medal... if beating Canada at a tournament that resulted in nothing is considered at least something, then ipso facto it sort of cements Canada as the number 1 team... in a sort of round about way. I just found that point by the OP rather dubious...

All I can say is, win a few Olympics to go along with those WC titles and then we have ourselves a conversation.... I do certainty hope there will be World Cups in the very near future.... hell, play them in Europe.. who cares.... lets rock and roll and it should be a great world junior champions and I'm expecting Canada to be in the gold medal game...so far, I'd say 50/50 on winning it... but we shall see.

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11-29-2012, 06:57 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
No doubt, Dallman has done well, much like many Russian players succeed in the NHL.

However using the league argument invariably biases the argument against one side since only the Russians and Europeans have to deal with major cultural issues that North Americans never face, except maybe in Montreal.
What evidence do you have that this has any impact on player performance?

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11-29-2012, 07:00 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Den View Post
Why are people counting Canada and World Cups here?
I would argue that IIHF tournaments have been more biased in favour of European teams than the CCup/WCup ever was in favour of Canada or the US, so why are we counting any tournament? Just saying.

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11-29-2012, 10:49 AM
  #144
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As does the Canada Cup means nothing or was rigged. There's plenty of tedium to go around on both sides.

They don't mean attendance. Canadians will pay tickets to see just about any hockey. They mean player interest, and there's no doubt players interested in going to the worlds are far fewer in North America than in Europe and particularly Russia. It's just the way it is and what makes the worlds less than it should be.
Just for clarification, I didn't say that the Canada Cup means nothing. It was an invitational tournament bringing together most of the best players in the world, and it was exciting for the fans. My objection to considering the Canada Cup as a measurement of which country is the best is that conditions favored an individual country to start with, and then to say, in essence, we lost the 1981 Cup and we lost the 1984 Round Robin game with the Soviets, so therefore we will only have Canadian and American referees exclusively, diminished the competitive value of the tournament beyond the breaking point. But there were some great games, no doubt about it. While some posters have used the Canada Cup as evidence of Canada being superior, it should be noted that the margin of victory was one goal in 1984 and '87, and Canada and the Soviets tied in 1991. Hardly evidence of superiority.

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11-29-2012, 10:55 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
This may be true although ironically one of the best if not the best player in the KHL over the last 5 years has been Kevin Dallman. Anyway since the talent pool feeding the NHL is much much deeper than any other league I would weight NHL performance accordingly.
Now its getting ludicrous! Nobody thinks Kevin Dallman is the best or even one of the best players in the KHL.

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11-29-2012, 11:47 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Now its getting ludicrous! Nobody thinks Kevin Dallman is the best or even one of the best players in the KHL.
I'm going to guess that you know nothing about the KHL. To start with he was named to the KHL's first all-star line for last year, so it would seem that your claim that nobody considers Dallman to be one of the top players in the league is a complete load of bunk, not to mention the other records and awards he has over the last 5 years.

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11-29-2012, 12:24 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Just for clarification, I didn't say that the Canada Cup means nothing. It was an invitational tournament bringing together most of the best players in the world, and it was exciting for the fans. My objection to considering the Canada Cup as a measurement of which country is the best is that conditions favored an individual country to start with, and then to say, in essence, we lost the 1981 Cup and we lost the 1984 Round Robin game with the Soviets, so therefore we will only have Canadian and American referees exclusively, diminished the competitive value of the tournament beyond the breaking point. But there were some great games, no doubt about it. While some posters have used the Canada Cup as evidence of Canada being superior, it should be noted that the margin of victory was one goal in 1984 and '87, and Canada and the Soviets tied in 1991. Hardly evidence of superiority.
That's fine, so what measure do you use? Or is there even one? If you're going to discount the Canada Cup, I would hope you also discount the lower-calibre world championships, which was/is arguably set up to favour European teams. So what's left, other than the last four Olympics?

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11-29-2012, 12:40 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I'm going to guess that you know nothing about the KHL. To start with he was named to the KHL's first all-star line for last year, so it would seem that your claim that nobody considers Dallman to be one of the top players in the league is a complete load of bunk, not to mention the other records and awards he has over the last 5 years.
You will never change - you're still the same old flamer and troller that you've always been. Your point is to denigrate the KHL and Russian hockey in general by saying that a guy who would be hard pressed to make an AHL team can just drop by Russia and immediately become the best player in the KHL, even though in fact those very guys from the KHL often beat Canadian NHL stars in the WC. Don't you ever get tired of yourself?

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11-29-2012, 12:45 PM
  #149
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That's fine, so what measure do you use? Or is there even one? If you're going to discount the Canada Cup, I would hope you also discount the lower-calibre world championships, which was/is arguably set up to favour European teams. So what's left, other than the last four Olympics?

The WC and the OG have the same advantages and disadvantages applying to everybody, so they are valid tournaments for determining which team wins at that moment.

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11-29-2012, 01:06 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The WC and the OG have the same advantages and disadvantages applying to everybody, so they are valid tournaments for determining which team wins at that moment.
You're right, the WC gets just as many of the best players as the Olympics. Perfectly valid comparison.

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