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Luongo thread continued...

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Old
11-29-2012, 12:49 PM
  #376
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Not great hockey practice.
I'm sure Jeff Finger and Mike Zigomanis agree,and to a similar extent, Colby Armstrong. It's part of hockey.

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11-29-2012, 01:21 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
You seem to forget about Luongo's contract. It was just be a matter of time before Luongo became our whipping boy (due to his age and contract). The same thing happened with Tucker, than McCabe.

Question: Why are you willing to give up anything for this "albatross". Shouldn't you want no part of his contract, at all? Why offer up even Colborne or MacA, let alone 4 pieces to get a deal done?


This is hypocritical. Either his contract his mediocre to stellar (I'm on this end) enough to warrant a comparable return. Or it's not, and you shouldn't want it at all.


Choose which, because there are clearly fans at opposite ends of the spectrum as to how his contract is to be viewed.

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11-29-2012, 01:42 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Question: Why are you willing to give up anything for this "albatross". Shouldn't you want no part of his contract, at all? Why offer up even Colborne or MacA, let alone 4 pieces to get a deal done?


This is hypocritical. Either his contract his mediocre to stellar (I'm on this end) enough to warrant a comparable return. Or it's not, and you shouldn't want it at all.


Choose which, because there are clearly fans at opposite ends of the spectrum as to how his contract is to be viewed.
His contract is an albatross, but...he is still a quality goalie, who's play, with his age will decline, that's just nature.

I'm offering up my best offer, which to you is decent but not stellar.

Kadri/Colborne + 1st (top ten protected)/Percy

The only piece of that deal that I personally value is Percy/1st. The others I'm fine with offering up.

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11-29-2012, 01:51 PM
  #379
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Luongo's contract is an albatross.

Although, he is a #1 goaltender and the Leafs are in need of a substantial goaltending upgrade.

I don't think Luongo is even an option for the Leafs if wasn't for the fact that they haven't seen playoff hockey since 2004. I think management and fans have gotten to the point where they will take 3-4 years of playoff hockey even if it means by taking the contract their ability to be competitive in the future is less likely.

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11-29-2012, 02:08 PM
  #380
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even if it means by taking the contract their ability to be competitive in the future is less likely.
This doesn't make any sense. The Canucks have a great team right now with Lu on the roster as a "backup", that's only going to get easier as we move along and the cap goes up.

The only thing wrong with Lu's contract is that it's too complicated for the average fan to understand the tremendous benefit it offers. Cap circumvention, look it up.

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11-29-2012, 02:08 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by vinnybaby View Post
Luongo's contract is an albatross.

Although, he is a #1 goaltender and the Leafs are in need of a substantial goaltending upgrade.

I don't think Luongo is even an option for the Leafs if wasn't for the fact that they haven't seen playoff hockey since 2004. I think management and fans have gotten to the point where they will take 3-4 years of playoff hockey even if it means by taking the contract their ability to be competitive in the future is less likely.
What? "Luongo is a number one goalie, and the Leafs need one." "The Leafs will make the playoffs [with Luongo] for the next 3 or 4 years." But you prefaced these comments by stating the Leaf's don't need Luongo.

It seems to me, from what you wrote, that the Leafs are in dire need of Luongo, and should give up a lot to get him.

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11-29-2012, 02:13 PM
  #382
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I would prefer if we were somehow able to keep him and JVR. While I am not saying he will keep trending up, he does play well with Kessel. So if he makes Kessel play better well, enough said. Now having to have him included is not a deal breaker, but i just don't see Burke doing it. I think Lupul likes playing in TO and wants to stay. i also think he would take a discount to stay. And it isn't the first time he scored over 20goals, been a while but he was injured. So while I am not saying he will be a 35-40 guy I think that he is good for 25-30 as they play well together.
Just curious, but when was the last time a player took a discount to sign with the Leafs?

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11-29-2012, 02:15 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
How are we fighting the same arguments again?

-His contract makes him devoid of value, even with his skill
-He's declining in play already
-He want's to play out his contract
-No one else wants him
-Gillis has to, and wants to, move him
-Schneider and Luongo will hate each other
-All our good stuff is untouchable, here's Kadri and a 2nd
-Luongo's contract is a worthless albatross, but a player who may not have a contract for longer then a week when this trade may occur is still super valuable


We've answered these comments ad nauseum for 30ish threads, with about 40 pages each since the end of the season. I urge my fellow Canucks fans to simply ignore anyone that use these arguments as, not just evidence, but fact, and doesn't back things up.
Hey, I know you didn't like my bus passes but I have since found a Moxie's gift card, I am willing to throw it in so you can take the wife to dinner, or in case you have to go to an "afterwork meeting" cause dinner isn't what you were hoping for? This is on top of the three free Timmies coffee coupons I forgot to tell you about before, tempted aren't you?

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11-29-2012, 02:18 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
This doesn't make any sense. The Canucks have a great team right now with Lu on the roster as a "backup", that's only going to get easier as we move along and the cap goes up.

The only thing wrong with Lu's contract is that it's too complicated for the average fan to understand the tremendous benefit it offers. Cap circumvention, look it up.
Here is the problem, Vancouver fans think Luongo's contract is very good and the length is a benifit. Leaf fans see it as bad because he is yours until he decides to retire.

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11-29-2012, 02:24 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by sniper81 View Post
Here is the problem, Vancouver fans think Luongo's contract is very good and the length is a benifit. Leaf fans see it as bad because he is yours until he decides to retire.
So far Canucks' fans appear to be presenting their side of the problem better.

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11-29-2012, 02:25 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Just curious, but when was the last time a player took a discount to sign with the Leafs?
LOL, UMMM, that would be Jeff finger, lol. Seriously though, Kaberle did, last guy i can think of really.

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11-29-2012, 02:29 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
So far Canucks' fans appear to be presenting their side of the problem better.
Or, maybe neither side wants to see what the other is saying?????????? lol

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11-29-2012, 02:36 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
His contract is an albatross, but...he is still a quality goalie, who's play, with his age will decline, that's just nature.

I'm offering up my best offer, which to you is decent but not stellar.

Kadri/Colborne + 1st (top ten protected)/Percy

The only piece of that deal that I personally value is Percy/1st. The others I'm fine with offering up.


DG93, you still don't understand cap-circumvention. That's why you see it the way you do. In fact, these contracts are so good that they are being banned (BDCs) or penalized (Kovalchuk). Why do that to teams if they are signing players to albatross contracts? Shouldn't the fact that they are saddled with such deals be punishment enough? Why punish them further? Think it through DG93. Think.



And if you still refuse to see the light, and continue to view it as an albatross, then you should want no part of it. No assets given up. Just a flat out "no thank you" and move on.



Here's the other thing: If you say his contract is an albatross, what does that make TO? A refuse dump for albatross contracts? Are you so used to bad contracts that you don't mind more? As in, you are fine adding him to Lupul (when he was a dump), Komisarek, Connolly, Lombardi, Armstrong etc... because you don't expect your GM to be competent at managing cap space properly? Either way, taking on an albatross should be a bad thing right?

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11-29-2012, 02:38 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
So far Canucks' fans appear to be presenting their side of the problem better.
Most Leaf fans wont even come anear this thread, its a train wreck. Most see the packages some Canucks fans want and feel its better to head back to the homepage, where we are safe.

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11-29-2012, 02:39 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
You seem to forget about Luongo's contract. It was just be a matter of time before Luongo became our whipping boy (due to his age and contract). The same thing happened with Tucker, than McCabe.
If you feel this way then stop coming to this thread almost daily & stop making offers almost daily!

You're not getting Luongo for cheap, no matter how much you pile n your negative pov on him.


"I don't want that piece of crap, but ill offer you something for him"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
How are we fighting the same arguments again?

-His contract makes him devoid of value, even with his skill
-He's declining in play already
-He want's to play out his contract
-No one else wants him
-Gillis has to, and wants to, move him
-Schneider and Luongo will hate each other
-All our good stuff is untouchable, here's Kadri and a 2nd
-Luongo's contract is a worthless albatross, but a player who may not have a contract for longer then a week when this trade may occur is still super valuable


We've answered these comments ad nauseum for 30ish threads, with about 40 pages each since the end of the season. I urge my fellow Canucks fans to simply ignore anyone that use these arguments as, not just evidence, but fact, and doesn't back things up.
I'll one up you: We shouldn't even come in these threads and to go a step further we shoudln't post. Let the delusional people have a delusional circle jerk & then be shocked that Luongo is traded for value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper81 View Post
Here is the problem, Vancouver fans think Luongo's contract is very good and the length is a benifit. Leaf fans see it as bad because he is yours until he decides to retire.
The league must think these contracts are an advantage for the team that signs them... I mean look at the lengths they are going to so they can close that loophole.

Its not JUST Vancouver fans that know these Cap Circumventors are very good but the League does as well. SOME Leafs fans see it as bad because they don't understand how Cap Circumventors work, are trying to use it as a negative as bargaining power or just believe they are bad because their own GM won't sign them.


Last edited by Scottrockztheworld*: 11-29-2012 at 02:47 PM.
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11-29-2012, 02:44 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by sniper81 View Post
Most Leaf fans wont even come anear this thread, its a train wreck. Most see the packages some Canucks fans want and feel its better to head back to the homepage, where we are safe.
Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

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11-29-2012, 02:49 PM
  #392
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Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.
I could easily say the same for both sides.

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11-29-2012, 02:55 PM
  #393
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I could easily say the same for both sides.
Perhaps, but in general the only argument posed by Leafs fans is "Albatross contract", even though it has been explained numerous times that there are multiple possibilities on what happens when Luongo's play declines.

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11-29-2012, 03:01 PM
  #394
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Agreed. JVR won't be moved.

A deal around Lupul would make sense, but because he is a UFA we really only get him for ~50 games (assuming there's a season). Toronto is going to have to add to him, and that may be the sticking point. Personally, I'd ask for Lupul and either a 1st or Kadri. How would Leaf fans feel about that?
In my mind? Way too much to give up.

UFA or not, you're talking about the Leafs moving their 2nd best winger who had an amazing year last year plus a high potential albeit fallen out of favour prospect or a 1st rounder.

I wouldn't move Lupul straight up unless Burkie thought he couldn't sign him. But again, that's my opinion.

JVR should make a great 2nd liner but having him as our best LW seems like a really poor idea at the moment.

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11-29-2012, 03:02 PM
  #395
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Leaf fans see it as bad because he is yours until he decides to retire.
Canuck fans were happy to know we'd have a great goalie locked up until he retired, I still can't see why this is a problem for Leaf fans. You need a goalie desperately and have the financial resources to take on his contract. You're also a "cap team" that will benefit from his lower than value cap number.

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11-29-2012, 03:08 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Perhaps, but in general the only argument posed by Leafs fans is "Albatross contract", even though it has been explained numerous times that there are multiple possibilities on what happens when Luongo's play declines.
Do you feel the contract as good? I view the cap hit as decent but the length isn't ideal. Why should the Leafs give up a lot for a contract that will come with a bunch of question marks that wont get answered until a new CBA is signed. Its the only arguement posted because it is a legit one.

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11-29-2012, 03:09 PM
  #397
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I acknowledge Luongo could be an upgrade in our goaltending position, but that still doesn't have any barring on his current status. His contract IS AN ALBATROSS. Burke is against cap circumvention, and is on record for saying so.

This isn't about what Burke would offer, it's about what I believe would be offered under the circumstances.

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11-29-2012, 03:11 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Perhaps, but in general the only argument posed by Leafs fans is "Albatross contract", even though it has been explained numerous times that there are multiple possibilities on what happens when Luongo's play declines.
I don't like the contract as much as Nuck fans, but don't think it is the worst. So how about some leafs fans, lol.

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11-29-2012, 03:11 PM
  #399
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Do you feel the contract as good? I view the cap hit as decent but the length isn't ideal. Why should the Leafs give up a lot for a contract that will come with a bunch of question marks that wont get answered until a new CBA is signed. Its the only arguement posted because it is a legit one.
Very well said, and true.

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11-29-2012, 03:12 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Canuck fans were happy to know we'd have a great goalie locked up until he retired, I still can't see why this is a problem for Leaf fans. You need a goalie desperately and have the financial resources to take on his contract. You're also a "cap team" that will benefit from his lower than value cap number.
We do need a goalie badly, but should we trade lupul, Kadri and a first for it? we improve our goaltending and create a hole on the first in the top 6, has to make sense for both sides.

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