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Who is the Better PKer? Brian Boyle or Ryan Callahan?

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Old
11-29-2012, 01:34 PM
  #76
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11 goals is fine for a 3rd line center who starts something like 70% of his zone starts in the defensive zone.

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11-29-2012, 01:46 PM
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11 goals is fine for a 3rd line center who starts something like 70% of his zone starts in the defensive zone.
Stop introducing facts. It makes this debate totally unfair.

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11-29-2012, 01:48 PM
  #78
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11 goals is fine for a 3rd line center who starts something like 70% of his zone starts in the defensive zone.
3rd line centers should not be starting 70% of their shifts in the defensive zone.

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11-29-2012, 01:56 PM
  #79
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Bardof, please go to NHL.com and look at the stats for centers last year. Look at the group of scorers between 60-90 and see if Boyle fits in that group as that should be the group that are "3rd line centers" in terms of points alone (which we all know is not all that matters when on the ice).

He is tied for 87th on the list in terms of only points. Add in his faceoff prowess (and yes, anything over 50% is considered good, especially considering how many PK faceoffs he takes every year), PK ability and defensive skills and he is easily a 3rd line center in this league.

Also, just skimming the list of centers, there are probably ~10 players on that list who do not normally play center.

Tyler Kennedy
Andrew Cogliano
Mike Cammalerri
Tuomo Ruutu
Artem Anisimov

Those are just a few names I saw skimming the list for Boyle's name.

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11-29-2012, 01:56 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
3rd line centers should not be starting 70% of their shifts in the defensive zone.
But what a huge bonus when they can.

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11-29-2012, 01:57 PM
  #81
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But what a huge bonus when they can.
Disagree. That's not a bonus. It's a detriment to the team.

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11-29-2012, 01:58 PM
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3rd line centers should not be starting 70% of their shifts in the defensive zone.
Oh do tell. I'd love to hear this explanation.

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11-29-2012, 02:03 PM
  #83
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Oh do tell. I'd love to hear this explanation.
I really can't wait either. I really have no idea why shielding your top offensive players from defensive shifts can be a bad thing.

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11-29-2012, 02:08 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Oh do tell. I'd love to hear this explanation.
I don't want my 3rd line center being a specialist. I don't want any of my 3rd liners being specialists. Hell, I barely want ANY of my forwards to be a specialist, unless it's a high end offensive one. I can accept it a little more for a 4th liner. For 3rd liners, I want them to be able to be on the attack, wear down their opponents, put up around 30-40 points, and yes, of course play responsible defensive hockey. The first two don't happen if they start 70% of their shifts in the defensive zone.

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11-29-2012, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I really can't wait either. I really have no idea why shielding your top offensive players from defensive shifts can be a bad thing.
That's not what's happening in Boyle's case. He's starting 70% of his shifts in the defensive zone and if he happens to be able to shift the team to offense, he's not getting off the ice, he's going on offense. And doing almost nothing.

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11-29-2012, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I don't want my 3rd line center being a specialist. I don't want any of my 3rd liners being specialists. Hell, I barely want ANY of my forwards to be a specialist, unless it's a high end offensive one. I can accept it a little more for a 4th liner. For 3rd liners, I want them to be able to be on the attack, wear down their opponents, put up around 30-40 points, and yes, of course play responsible defensive hockey. The first two don't happen if they start 70% of their shifts in the defensive zone.
He's not Zenon Konopka. He's put up 26 and 35 points in his last two seasons. That averages to within the 30-40 range you've given above.

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That's not what's happening in Boyle's case. He's starting 70% of his shifts in the defensive zone and if he happens to be able to shift the team to offense, he's not getting off the ice, he's going on offense. And doing almost nothing.
During the course of a course a team will have a certain amount of offensive zone starts and a certain amount of defensive zone starts. Boyle taking the bulk of the defensive zone starts means that Stepan and Richards get to start most of their shifts in the offensive zone.

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11-29-2012, 02:29 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
He's not Zenon Konopka. He's put up 26 and 35 points in his last two seasons. That averages to within the 30-40 range you've given above.


During the course of a course a team will have a certain amount of offensive zone starts and a certain amount of defensive zone starts. Boyle taking the bulk of the defensive zone starts means that Stepan and Richards get to start most of their shifts in the offensive zone.
I maintain that the 35 point season was an aberration. I can be proven wrong, of course.

Stepan and Richards will always start most of their shifts in the offensive zone. The balance between Stepan and Boyle's defensive zone starts should be closer though. John Mitchell's offensive start numbers are more representative of what a 3rd line center's should be. Or Chris Kelly's. Or Shawn Horcoff's. Or Michael Handzus's. Or Jordan Staal's.

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11-29-2012, 02:44 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I maintain that the 35 point season was an aberration. I can be proven wrong, of course.
What about last season though? 26 points = BAD; 30 points = GOOD?

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Stepan and Richards will always start most of their shifts in the offensive zone.
Not if someone doesn't eat up the defensive zone starts....

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The balance between Stepan and Boyle's defensive zone starts should be closer though.
Why? For who's benefit?

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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
John Mitchell's offensive start numbers are more representative of what a 3rd line center's should be. Or Chris Kelly's. Or Shawn Horcoff's. Or Michael Handzus's. Or Jordan Staal's.
OK, you have a value in your head of what a 3rd line center's shift makeup should look like, for whatever reason you have.

Jordan Staal was only a 3rd line center for a portion of the season because of circumstance. Chris Kelly is an exceptional 3rd line center (who's season I would suggest was an aberration, anyways). Horcoff, Handzus and Mitchell produced at or below Boyle's even strength scoring rate despite starting a much higher percentage of their shifts in the offensive zone, as you've pointed out. How is that a good thing?

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11-29-2012, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
What about last season though? 26 points = BAD; 30 points = GOOD?
Yes

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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Not if someone doesn't eat up the defensive zone starts....
I think we could stand to have Stepan's offensive zone starts be closer to 55% instead of 62%.

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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Why? For who's benefit?
The team's.

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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
OK, you have a value in your head of what a 3rd line center's shift makeup should look like, for whatever reason you have.

Jordan Staal was only a 3rd line center for a portion of the season because of circumstance. Chris Kelly is an exceptional 3rd line center (who's season I would suggest was an aberration, anyways). Horcoff, Handzus and Mitchell produced at or below Boyle's even strength scoring rate despite starting a much higher percentage of their shifts in the offensive zone, as you've pointed out. How is that a good thing?
Jordan Staal may have spent time as his team's second line center, but he was still used in a 3rd liner's role. Your point about Chris Kelly being an exceptional 3rd line center fits in with mine, which is that Boyle is not. Horcoff is as well. Mitchell's shift makeup was as a 3rd line center, but he wasn't playing 3rd line minutes. That one was just an example of shift division. Handzus, I was thinking about the player he used to be I guess.

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11-29-2012, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The team's.
Why is it in the team's benefit for offensive players to get less offensive starts?

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Jordan Staal may have spent time as his team's second line center, but he was still used in a 3rd liner's role.
And what exactly does it mean to be the second line center but be used in a 3rd liner's role?

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Your point about Chris Kelly being an exceptional 3rd line center fits in with mine, which is that Boyle is not.
I have no problem with the assertion that Chris Kelly is better than Boyle.

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Horcoff is as well.
Horcoff 1.04 ESP/60 43.9% OffZoneSt%
Boyle 1.43 ESP/60 28.8% OffZoneSt%

Why is Horcoff exceptional, and Boyle not, exactly?

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11-29-2012, 03:14 PM
  #91
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Why is it in the team's benefit for offensive players to get less offensive starts?


And what exactly does it mean to be the second line center but be used in a 3rd liner's role?


I have no problem with the assertion that Chris Kelly is better than Boyle.


Horcoff 1.04 ESP/60 43.9% OffZoneSt%
Boyle 1.43 ESP/60 28.8% OffZoneSt%

Why is Horcoff exceptional, and Boyle not, exactly?
Because Horcoff can be used on the powerplay effectively.

As for why it's to the team's benefit to start someone like Stepan less often in the offensive zone. Three points.

1.) It doesn't hurt Brad Richards that he gets about 52-53% of his starts in the offensive zone. And that's not just last year, which was slightly underwhelming for him offensively, but for the year before in Dallas. It shouldn't hurt Stepan either.

2.) It also doesn't hurt to give your opponents defensemen different looks more often than the Rangers did last year. Showing them a 3rd liner with a more physical presence more often and Stepan a little less can help Stepan be more effective when he's out there.

3.) Stepan had a pretty wide and negative discrepancy between his offensive zone starts and finishes last season, which indicates that his skills might not have been utilized as efficiently as possible.

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Old
11-29-2012, 03:52 PM
  #92
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Bardof, please go to NHL.com and look at the stats for centers last year. Look at the group of scorers between 60-90 and see if Boyle fits in that group as that should be the group that are "3rd line centers" in terms of points alone (which we all know is not all that matters when on the ice).

He is tied for 87th on the list in terms of only points. Add in his faceoff prowess (and yes, anything over 50% is considered good, especially considering how many PK faceoffs he takes every year), PK ability and defensive skills and he is easily a 3rd line center in this league.

Also, just skimming the list of centers, there are probably ~10 players on that list who do not normally play center.

Tyler Kennedy
Andrew Cogliano
Mike Cammalerri
Tuomo Ruutu
Artem Anisimov

Those are just a few names I saw skimming the list for Boyle's name.
Using last year's teams here is a pretty good list of 3rd line centers. BB would fall pretty low on this list if you were ranking these players from best to worst (all around). If you disagree with that then the bridge in this discussion is too wide for us to continue.

Staal
Tom Pyatt
Zach Smith
Josh Bailey
Lapierre
Zubrus
Hanzus
Stoll
Sutter
Kelly
Hudler
Fidler
Stajan
Eller
Kruger
Matthias
Cogliano
Duschene
Arnott
Colin Wilson
Horcoff
Connolly
Antropov
Laich (or Johannson)
Cullen
Hodgson
Letestu
Langkow
Couturier

I'm sure a few of these guys didn't play center primarily and you may want to argue that a few are second line centers although I think this is pretty accurate in that regard. But, there aren't alot of guys on here that I would turn down in a one for one for BB if I am filling the role of 3rd line center. I wouldn't trade him for Pyatt, Bailey, and Letestu. The rest are either a toss up or a deal I would make in a second (there's alot more of those)

I want my 3rd line center to have some ability to scare the other team defensively and take advantage of their third defensive pairing.

btw, the stats that discuss where on the ice each shift starts are widely mocked and certainly shouldn't be presented here as meaning something definitive. It's a fine discussion point, but some of you act as if those stats are gospel.

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11-29-2012, 04:04 PM
  #93
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btw, the stats that discuss where on the ice each shift starts are widely mocked and certainly shouldn't be presented here as meaning something definitive. It's a fine discussion point, but some of you act as if those stats are gospel.
Stats don't discuss. People do. Stats give you the facts of what has happened.

Where are offensive zone starts widely mocked? What do those mockers say? Why is how many shifts a player starts in the offensive zone not useful to them?

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11-29-2012, 04:10 PM
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Please tell me that 'Duschene' isn't referring to Matt Duchene and that you're grouping him in as a 3rd line center.

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11-29-2012, 04:37 PM
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I don't want my 3rd line center being a specialist. I don't want any of my 3rd liners being specialists. Hell, I barely want ANY of my forwards to be a specialist, unless it's a high end offensive one. I can accept it a little more for a 4th liner. For 3rd liners, I want them to be able to be on the attack, wear down their opponents, put up around 30-40 points, and yes, of course play responsible defensive hockey. The first two don't happen if they start 70% of their shifts in the defensive zone.
This utopia where the top 9 is a balanced force that is always keeping its opponents on their toes is pure fantasy.

Brian Boyle evolved into a very good shut-down type of guy over the course of last season. He begins most of his shifts in the defensive zone because the coach trusts him to get the job done there above any other center on the team, and with good reason. Richards and Stepan leave a lot to be desired on the defensive side of the puck.

I guess if Boyle scored 4 more points, and started more shifts in the offensive zone, he wouldnt be a "specialist" (still not entirely clear re: what what means).

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11-29-2012, 04:39 PM
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Using last year's teams here is a pretty good list of 3rd line centers. BB would fall pretty low on this list if you were ranking these players from best to worst (all around). If you disagree with that then the bridge in this discussion is too wide for us to continue.

Staal
Tom Pyatt
Zach Smith
Josh Bailey
Lapierre
Zubrus
Hanzus
Stoll
Sutter
Kelly
Hudler
Fidler
Stajan
Eller
Kruger
Matthias
Cogliano
Duschene
Arnott
Colin Wilson
Horcoff
Connolly
Antropov
Laich (or Johannson)
Cullen
Hodgson
Letestu
Langkow
Couturier

I'm sure a few of these guys didn't play center primarily and you may want to argue that a few are second line centers although I think this is pretty accurate in that regard. But, there aren't alot of guys on here that I would turn down in a one for one for BB if I am filling the role of 3rd line center. I wouldn't trade him for Pyatt, Bailey, and Letestu. The rest are either a toss up or a deal I would make in a second (there's alot more of those)

I want my 3rd line center to have some ability to scare the other team defensively and take advantage of their third defensive pairing.

btw, the stats that discuss where on the ice each shift starts are widely mocked and certainly shouldn't be presented here as meaning something definitive. It's a fine discussion point, but some of you act as if those stats are gospel.
Considering a ton of those guys are either:

1. bona-fide top 6 players
2. not centers
3. not better than Boyle

I'd say you're right where you started -- without much of an argument.

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11-29-2012, 04:48 PM
  #97
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Using last year's teams here is a pretty good list of 3rd line centers. BB would fall pretty low on this list if you were ranking these players from best to worst (all around). If you disagree with that then the bridge in this discussion is too wide for us to continue.

Staal - yeah...cause there's Crosby and Malkin in front of him.
Tom Pyatt
Zach Smith
Josh Bailey
Lapierre
Zubrus- not even a center
Hanzus
Stoll
Sutter-wasn't he playing second line for CAR?
Kelly-I'll give you that one
Hudler
Fidler
Stajan
Eller
Kruger
Matthias
Cogliano
Duschene-LOL
Arnott-old and slow
Colin Wilson
Horcoff-someone with a 5.5 cap hit better be good at third line center.
Connolly
Antropov- top 6 in Winnipeg
Laich (or Johannson)-Laich played a lot with Ovi. (top 6) johannson is young.
Cullen
Hodgson- H Sedin and Kesler in front of him.
Letestu
Langkow
Couturier-you mean the 19 year old rookie who would be playing right behind Giroux this season? Yeah...OK

I'm sure a few of these guys didn't play center primarily and you may want to argue that a few are second line centers although I think this is pretty accurate in that regard. But, there aren't alot of guys on here that I would turn down in a one for one for BB if I am filling the role of 3rd line center. I wouldn't trade him for Pyatt, Bailey, and Letestu. The rest are either a toss up or a deal I would make in a second (there's alot more of those)

I want my 3rd line center to have some ability to scare the other team defensively and take advantage of their third defensive pairing.

btw, the stats that discuss where on the ice each shift starts are widely mocked and certainly shouldn't be presented here as meaning something definitive. It's a fine discussion point, but some of you act as if those stats are gospel.
Boyle's not the perfect 3rd line center. Although I'm sure we'd all trade Brian Boyle for J Staal, Sutter, Couturier, and Duchene. But that's unrealistic.

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11-29-2012, 05:14 PM
  #98
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3rd line centers should not be starting 70% of their shifts in the defensive zone.
Blame the other two top centers. Neither of which can handle defensive zone pressure.

This is where you look to make a Mike Richards esque trade to ease the workload off of Boyle.

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11-29-2012, 05:39 PM
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Blame the other two top centers. Neither of which can handle defensive zone pressure.

This is where you look to make a Mike Richards esque trade to ease the workload off of Boyle.
Yep, our other PKing center can't handle defensive pressure.

What??

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11-29-2012, 07:10 PM
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You were the one who used Selke nominations as evidence that he's a great PKer, not me.

I'm not grasping your logic here. Callahan is the superior PKer, but Tortorella is more likely to use Boyle, who in your own words is far below Cally in ability, just so Callahan is less likely to get injured blocking a shot? Callahan was already 3rd in the NHL in blocked shots amongst forwards. How is that not risking a guy to injury? Not to mention I can't really see "preservation" being an issue when it's supposedly a downgrade in terms of ability.
I also mentioned that Boyle is a more than viable PK'er in my post, which you conveniently ignored.

Callahan is one of the top penalty killers in the league. Boyle is still very good, the gap is still considerable however. If you can't grasp that Torts wouldn't use one of his more valuable offensive and all-around players in a situation that's purely defensive, well then I think there's no point in carrying on this discussion.

Callahan blocks a ton of shots, even at ES. The issue is that by overworking him on the PK, you take away from his offensive flow, as seen with Dubinsky, who basically got relegated to PK and 3rd/4th line duty after a while because of his struggles. Now, I'm not saying they were directly because of being used on the PK, but a guy like that you want to use on your 2nd unit, and not your first.

Bottom line is, if I'm sending someone out to block a shot, I'm sending out Boyle before Callahan. I'll mention it again, since you ignored it in the previous post, Boyle is a more than viable option to kill penalties with. I never said he was bad. I think Callahan however is better. Can't agree with me on that, then that's fine, but I don't know what else to say.

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