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Mika Zibanejad is the real deal.

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Old
11-29-2012, 12:49 PM
  #626
derriko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
We are seeing the real Zibanejad. He's never put up numbers at any level, ever.

To suggest that he is going to be a 50-60 point NHL'er is a fantasy at best. He's a long, LONG way from there.
Of course he's a long ways away right now. Last year was basically a lost year for him, so hes still close to the same player we originally drafted outside of some physical development. Could he be the next Mike Fisher? Yes...but he could also be the next Mikko Koivu. Mikko took four years post draft to become a good player. Heres their second year stats.

Player - League - Gp - G -A
Koivu - Sm-Liiga - 37 - 7 - 13 - 20
Zibanejad - AHL - 16 - 1 - 6 - 7

If you average Mikas pace to 37 games, he would have 16 points, so basically the same as Koivu. I know its a different league, but most people would agree the AHL is better anyways. I bet you there were people writing off Mikko back then just like Mika is being. Now im not saying Mika is going to develop into Koivu, but its too early to throw that option out.

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11-29-2012, 12:51 PM
  #627
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how anyone can be making a sweeping statement like "Zibanejad has no finish, and that he'll be a good NHL'er and nothing more." of a 19yr old player is mindblowing

"well i've watched hockey my whole life...."
so have the rest of us....and you're no more correct than anyone else.

PATIENCE.

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11-29-2012, 12:55 PM
  #628
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Here's what a 19 year old Ryan Kesler did in the AHL:

33GP 3G 8A 11P

Having played on NA rinks his entire life.

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11-29-2012, 01:10 PM
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
Here's what a 19 year old Ryan Kesler did in the AHL:

33GP 3G 8A 11P

Having played on NA rinks his entire life.
But of course Ryan Kesler = Ryan Kesler. Ryan Kesler != Mika Zibanejad.

Does that make sense?

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11-29-2012, 01:20 PM
  #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
Here's what a 19 year old Ryan Kesler did in the AHL:
The problem with examples is that for every positive one there are many more exact examples that didn't turn out.

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11-29-2012, 01:27 PM
  #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Maybe we could start to accept that Zibanejad has no finish, and that he'll be a good NHL'er and nothing more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
The problem with examples is that for every positive one there are many more exact examples that didn't turn out.
Then you can just accept glib, negative statements like John Holmes' and I can keep showing examples of how stupid they are.

Cool?

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11-29-2012, 02:06 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
The problem with examples is that for every positive one there are many more exact examples that didn't turn out.
That's fine. All we're saying is we don't know how he'll end up. Saying he's got no finish because he's not scoring a lot in the AHL as a 19 year old (in a loaded year no less) is beyond ridiculous. It's asinine.

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11-29-2012, 02:28 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Zibandejad's agent is saying that Ottawa won't release him for the WJCs.

Weird, thought it would be good tournament for him. Though it's unfair if he had had two WJC game winners .

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportblade...cle15851389.ab
Idiotic move if true.

It also makes the WJC pretty boring from a Sens fan's perspective.


Last edited by Gil Gunderson: 11-29-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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11-29-2012, 02:37 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
I agree with this, I also think the Sens were disappointed in how Zib was handled, by both the Djurgardens and the Swedish national junior team.

Probably an easy decision for the Sens, keep him in NA and ensure continuity in the development plan.
Seems to me the Sens are trying to shelter him - Murray has always pushed the WJC on his prospects and said any chance you get to play for your country you should do it.

Mika is in limbo, Ottawa is afriad to send him away from the guard of Richardsson, afraid he will not play well and lose his confidence. I can't imagine this happening to any other Sens prospect - it;s ridiculous.

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11-29-2012, 02:39 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
Then you can just accept glib, negative statements like John Holmes' and I can keep showing examples of how stupid they are.
Though Holmes comments differ, while most fans here are positively realistic, he's negatively realistic. He did say that Z would be a good NHLer, which could mean top 6 but perhaps not top 3. If he didn't have trouble scoring right now, he'd be a monster prospect, but it's true it's early.

Z is a raw prospect who has a lot of development to go. He's going to work on his shot, become stronger, become accustomed to NA style, and become experienced. There's a chance because of his tools, that he could be 1st liner player, but I think it's right to expect at least top 6 of him.

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11-29-2012, 02:41 PM
  #636
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Still baffled that they selected him over Hamilton and Couturier.

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11-29-2012, 02:46 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Zeroknowledge View Post
Still baffled that they selected him over Hamilton and Couturier.
How? It's so clear if what some think is true. We lacked forwards at the time, and I believe instead of going BPA, we went for a forward instead, so no Hamilton. Couturier was not selected because of mono and less than ideal character. Mistake or not, it's not baffling.

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11-29-2012, 02:48 PM
  #638
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Swedes are usually late bloomers.

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11-29-2012, 02:52 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Maybe we could start to accept that Zibanejad has no finish, and that he'll be a good NHL'er and nothing more.
At 19 with his skill set?

I don't doubt he could be a decent two-way NHLer right now, even if he doesn't improve. He just wouldn't be a significant contributor offensively. But as far as being a good serviceable player...he was playing center in overtime rotating with Spezza, a choice the coach made, in his last game before being sent home.

There's years of development time for Zibanejad, it'd be foolish to come to these conclusion at this time while it's obvious there is upside there.

No one should be down on Zibanejad the "good NHL player"...there's a pretty good chance he already is capable of being that. We want Zibanejad the scorer....you do have to give him time to learn to do this. And if it doesn't come, we probably got a good player that's gonna be 6'2 215-220, great skater and will probably learn to lean on people. Playing with more talent will only help him. And we've seen him score in the pre-season, we know he can score in a variety of ways....and guess what? He's ours until he's 27 if we want. Lots of time.

Am I being too reasonable? Or is every prospect supposed to blow the doors off and go gang busters on the score sheet. I must be missing something.

Guys, I know it's standard to get pissed off everytime a better player passed you by in the draft...but that is standard as well. What you should be really pissed off about, is times when you can't turn draft picks into NHLers. Never hitting with 2nd rounders (this regime appears will hit on JS, RL, PW perhaps, never ever getting a player beyond the 3rd (Smith, Stone?, Boro?), never getting a stud (Karlsson, Cowen?)

Missing Staal and Kopitar for a player that may not be in the league passed 25? Get pissed off. That's awful. But getting mad because you got Dustin Brown instead of Zach Parise is just lame. That fan should be happy they didn't get Jessiman or Zherdev, etc. Let things play out. You don't get to win every time in the draft.


Last edited by Minister of Offence: 11-29-2012 at 03:05 PM.
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11-29-2012, 02:55 PM
  #640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Though Holmes comments differ, while most fans here are positively realistic, he's negatively realistic. He did say that Z would be a good NHLer, which could mean top 6 but perhaps not top 3. If he didn't have trouble scoring right now, he'd be a monster prospect, but it's true it's early.

Z is a raw prospect who has a lot of development to go. He's going to work on his shot, become stronger, become accustomed to NA style, and become experienced. There's a chance because of his tools, that he could be 1st liner player, but I think it's right to expect at least top 6 of him.
And I've likened him to Kesler even before we drafted him, so it's not like I just picked numbers from a guy who had seemingly no scoring touch at one point, yet turned out a 41 goal season in the NHL. There's a similar skillset, and few just walk into a man's league and toy with the competition. I have no expectations of Z scoring 40 in the NHL, but I certainly won't "accept" that he has no finish just because a pessimist is never disappointed.

I'm trying to fight hyperbole, here. I know it's in vain.

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11-29-2012, 02:58 PM
  #641
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Not only is Z-Bad a swede, but he's also a bit of a power forward, who themselves are often late bloomers.

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11-29-2012, 03:10 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Seems to me the Sens are trying to shelter him - Murray has always pushed the WJC on his prospects and said any chance you get to play for your country you should do it.

Mika is in limbo, Ottawa is afriad to send him away from the guard of Richardsson, afraid he will not play well and lose his confidence. I can't imagine this happening to any other Sens prospect - it;s ridiculous.
I'd say you're out to lunch.

I've seen it said this may have to do with his handling with the team last year...I could see that. Although we don't know the whole story.

Could also see it that he did so much moving around last year that this year they just want him to stay in one place and concentrate on being a pro. I know we'd all get our jollies watching our 19 year old 6th overall show he's a man amongst boys at the junior level and then start putting Peter Forsberg on his back...but that would all be garbage anyways.

Of course, you could send him, he has a great tournament, comes back with confidence....but there's also the prospect that the opposite happens, he comes back to NA, has to settle in again, has to adjust, slows him down.

They're taking what appears to be the safe route...he's already been to the WJC, he doesn't lose anything by not going. And that team is in tough anyways with arguable it's two best players gone. He can concentrate solely on becoming a Senator...fine by me. Being mad about it just seems kinda selfish because I know we all love watching our prospects over Christmas.

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11-29-2012, 03:14 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
I'd say you're out to lunch.

I've seen it said this may have to do with his handling with the team last year...I could see that. Although we don't know the whole story.

Could also see it that he did so much moving around last year that this year they just want him to stay in one place and concentrate on being a pro. I know we'd all get our jollies watching our 19 year old 6th overall show he's a man amongst boys at the junior level and then start putting Peter Forsberg on his back...but that would all be garbage anyways.

Of course, you could send him, he has a great tournament, comes back with confidence....but there's also the prospect that the opposite happens, he comes back to NA, has to settle in again, has to adjust, slows him down.

They're taking what appears to be the safe route...he's already been to the WJC, he doesn't lose anything by not going. And that team is in tough anyways with arguable it's two best players gone.
Richardsson has moved Zibby to each wing and center - players move in these tournaments and in the NHL, that is the nature of this business.

And Zibby was moved around the lineup last year because he was playing like Crap not because of mismanagement - the Sens didn't have a problem with how the WJC team handled him - that was his Junior club. If Zibby was playing like crap in games at the WJC he only has himself to blame - how long can we go on blaming Swedish coaches for Zibby's underwhelming play?

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11-29-2012, 03:19 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Richardsson has moved Zibby to each wing and center - players move in these tournaments and in the NHL, that is the nature of this business.

And Zibby was moved around the lineup last year because he was playing like Crap not because of mismanagement - the Sens didn't have a problem with how the WJC team handled him - that was his Junior club. If Zibby was playing like crap in games at the WJC he only has himself to blame - how long can we go on blaming Swedish coaches for Zibby's underwhelming play?
How often can we put up with impatient outbursts from posters that expect every prospect to be something by Christmas time at 19 years old. I wasn't just talking about moving around the lineup, hell, I was barely talking about that.

I'm talking, small ice NA, big ice SWE, small ice WJC, concussion, big ice SWE. Let the kid play in one spot.

It's the Sens job to put him in the best environment to develop...I can't see how their decision is something to gripe over. But most fans do gripe irrationally, and you appear to be just like most fans.

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11-29-2012, 03:34 PM
  #645
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If you guys want to get your jimmies all rustled, be my guest. The fact is that guys that score, score at every level their whole way up the pro ladder.

Guys take time to adjust to each higher level, true. However, if we look at a guy like Spezza, he was putting up 2 ppg in junior, 1 ppg in the AHL in his first stint, and well over that in the lockout season.

So the SEL is tougher and lower scoring than the CHL. Fine, I can accept that argument.

Havlat was almost at 1 ppg his second season in the Czech league.

Alfredsson had 20 goals in his 2nd year in the SEL.

Mika has never shown that he can score at any level. Yet he is supposed to develop into a 50-60 point NHL'er?

Come on. He's not going to be a more offensive Mike Fisher. I'd say a more physical Chris Kelly is what we're most likely to get from him.

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11-29-2012, 03:45 PM
  #646
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Alfie's 2nd year in the SEL was when he was shy of turning 21 at the beginning of the season.

In Silfverberg's 2nd year in the SEL he scored 8G 8A in 48 GP as a 19 year old.

In Zibanejad's 2nd year in the SEL he scored 5G 8A in 26GP as an 18 year old.

Therefore: Zibanejad has no finish.

Right?

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11-29-2012, 03:56 PM
  #647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
If you guys want to get your jimmies all rustled, be my guest. The fact is that guys that score, score at every level their whole way up the pro ladder.

Guys take time to adjust to each higher level, true. However, if we look at a guy like Spezza, he was putting up 2 ppg in junior, 1 ppg in the AHL in his first stint, and well over that in the lockout season.

So the SEL is tougher and lower scoring than the CHL. Fine, I can accept that argument.

Havlat was almost at 1 ppg his second season in the Czech league.

Alfredsson had 20 goals in his 2nd year in the SEL.

Mika has never shown that he can score at any level. Yet he is supposed to develop into a 50-60 point NHL'er?

Come on. He's not going to be a more offensive Mike Fisher. I'd say a more physical Chris Kelly is what we're most likely to get from him.
And that's your opinion, but after minimal viewing and the fact he is 19 coming to NA ice I'd say it's premature. Alfredsson was 23 when he first started playing in the NHL. Give him time and don't rush to conclusions. Maybe bringing Zibanejad down makes you feel better about not getting someone else or something, but you must see the arrogance of repeatedly saying he'll fail. If it's your opinion, say it once and let it go. Don't repeat it constantly as if it's a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
At 19 with his skill set?

I don't doubt he could be a decent two-way NHLer right now, even if he doesn't improve. He just wouldn't be a significant contributor offensively. But as far as being a good serviceable player...he was playing center in overtime rotating with Spezza, a choice the coach made, in his last game before being sent home.

There's years of development time for Zibanejad, it'd be foolish to come to these conclusion at this time while it's obvious there is upside there.

No one should be down on Zibanejad the "good NHL player"...there's a pretty good chance he already is capable of being that. We want Zibanejad the scorer....you do have to give him time to learn to do this. And if it doesn't come, we probably got a good player that's gonna be 6'2 215-220, great skater and will probably learn to lean on people. Playing with more talent will only help him. And we've seen him score in the pre-season, we know he can score in a variety of ways....and guess what? He's ours until he's 27 if we want. Lots of time.

Am I being too reasonable? Or is every prospect supposed to blow the doors off and go gang busters on the score sheet. I must be missing something.

Guys, I know it's standard to get pissed off everytime a better player passed you by in the draft...but that is standard as well. What you should be really pissed off about, is times when you can't turn draft picks into NHLers. Never hitting with 2nd rounders (this regime appears will hit on JS, RL, PW perhaps, never ever getting a player beyond the 3rd (Smith, Stone?, Boro?), never getting a stud (Karlsson, Cowen?)

Missing Staal and Kopitar for a player that may not be in the league passed 25? Get pissed off. That's awful. But getting mad because you got Dustin Brown instead of Zach Parise is just lame. That fan should be happy they didn't get Jessiman or Zherdev, etc. Let things play out. You don't get to win every time in the draft.
Nice post

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11-29-2012, 04:13 PM
  #648
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I am aware of the age differences.

If you don't like my opinion, that's fine, but your position is only opinion as well.

Could Zibanejad put it all together and be a top 3 guy? Sure.

He hasn't shown me in the past, or the present that is likely to happen though.

What makes you so sure that he will? Hope? Let me ask you this. How do you feel about Nazem Kadri?

How would you feel about Nazem Kadri if he was ours, which he would have been if Toronto didn't take him ahead of us.

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11-29-2012, 04:16 PM
  #649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
If you guys want to get your jimmies all rustled, be my guest. The fact is that guys that score, score at every level their whole way up the pro ladder.

Guys take time to adjust to each higher level, true. However, if we look at a guy like Spezza, he was putting up 2 ppg in junior, 1 ppg in the AHL in his first stint, and well over that in the lockout season.

So the SEL is tougher and lower scoring than the CHL. Fine, I can accept that argument.

Havlat was almost at 1 ppg his second season in the Czech league.

Alfredsson had 20 goals in his 2nd year in the SEL.

Mika has never shown that he can score at any level. Yet he is supposed to develop into a 50-60 point NHL'er?

Come on. He's not going to be a more offensive Mike Fisher. I'd say a more physical Chris Kelly is what we're most likely to get from him.
Way to go, you named 3 guys who are clearly more skilled than Zibanejad who outscored him.

Lets look at guys between 45-60 pts last year.

David Clarkson, a 30 goal, 46 pt player scored 39 pts in 54 games in the OHL at this age.
Ryan Malone, a 6 time 20+ goal scorer who scored 48 pts in 68 games scored 36 pts in 54 games in the USHL.
Jakub Voracek, who scored 49 pts this year, but up 9 goals in 80 games for a total of 38 points in the NHL.
We've already looked at Ryan Kesler...
Simmonds had 23 points in a full NHL season. Doan had 17. In fact, he didn't top 25 points until his 4th NHL year. Henrique had 77 points in an OHL season (less than Noesen despite being a year older), Fisher had 9 pts in half an NHL season. Ladd, drafted 4th overall, had 11 pts in 29 NHL games. He wouldn't top 21 pts until he turned 23. Plekanec had 46 pts in 77 AHL games , Burrows was under .5ppg in the ECHL, Brown was PPG in the AHL (followed it up with a 28 pt season), Versteeg was well under a ppg in the WHL, Backes was PPG at Minnesota state, Callahan had 80ish pts in the O, O'Reilly had 28 NHL pts, Dupuis put up 70 pts in the Q, Erat 54 pts in 31 WHL games, Weiss had 21 pts in a full NHL season, Franzen didn't top 8 pts in the SEL til he was 24, Marchand had 67 pts in 59 games in the Q... basically you are staggeringly wrong.

Now, I know you don't care and you are just looking for a reaction but I just needed to see how impressively wrong you could get.

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11-29-2012, 04:17 PM
  #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
I am aware of the age differences.

If you don't like my opinion, that's fine, but your position is only opinion as well.

Could Zibanejad put it all together and be a top 3 guy? Sure.

He hasn't shown me in the past, or the present that is likely to happen though.

What makes you so sure that he will? Hope? Let me ask you this. How do you feel about Nazem Kadri?

How would you feel about Nazem Kadri if he was ours, which he would have been if Toronto didn't take him ahead of us.
I have no problem with you posting your opinion, it's when you constantly repeat it as if it's fact that seems a little unreasonable.

I think Kadri is in a worse position than Zbad, he grew up in NA ice, hasn't really shown much in NHL (done okay in AHL). However, I wouldn't write him off either, cause he's still young, and has shown flashes of being a good player. The two cases are different anyways, so I'm not sure what that proves.

I liked Zibanejad before we drafted him (maybe not at 6, but to move up for him with our other picks). If our scouting saw him at 6, I trust their opinions more than yours. That's what I base it off of.

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