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Luongo thread continued...

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Old
11-29-2012, 03:14 PM
  #401
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Very well said, and true.
So let me ask you this, if the new CBA comes out and grandfathers this contract (allows the loopholes) what is your stance then?

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11-29-2012, 03:15 PM
  #402
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Neutral fan here. I think the deal will be Kulemin, Kadri, conditional first. Condition bring leafs making playoffs or it becomes a second and third.

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11-29-2012, 03:15 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
DG93, you still don't understand cap-circumvention. That's why you see it the way you do. In fact, these contracts are so good that they are being banned (BDCs) or penalized (Kovalchuk). Why do that to teams if they are signing players to albatross contracts? Shouldn't the fact that they are saddled with such deals be punishment enough? Why punish them further? Think it through DG93. Think.



And if you still refuse to see the light, and continue to view it as an albatross, then you should want no part of it. No assets given up. Just a flat out "no thank you" and move on.



Here's the other thing: If you say his contract is an albatross, what does that make TO? A refuse dump for albatross contracts? Are you so used to bad contracts that you don't mind more? As in, you are fine adding him to Lupul (when he was a dump), Komisarek, Connolly, Lombardi, Armstrong etc... because you don't expect your GM to be competent at managing cap space properly? Either way, taking on an albatross should be a bad thing right?
No, Toronto is just so desperate for quality goaltending that many of us are willing to take on the risk.

And the quality of Luongo's contract has been debated to death. Its a good cap hit with a very risky term due to age.

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11-29-2012, 03:17 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Neutral fan here. I think the deal will be Kulemin, Kadri, conditional first. Condition bring leafs making playoffs or it becomes a second and third.
Sign me up.

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11-29-2012, 03:19 PM
  #405
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What? "Luongo is a number one goalie, and the Leafs need one." "The Leafs will make the playoffs [with Luongo] for the next 3 or 4 years." But you prefaced these comments by stating the Leaf's don't need Luongo.

It seems to me, from what you wrote, that the Leafs are in dire need of Luongo, and should give up a lot to get him.
Bernier is available in trade.

Thomas, Backstrom, Smith, Howard, Nabokov and Theodore are all still on the table as potential UFA's. They can all likely be signed at a much prefered term.

I wouldn't say the Leafs need Luongo, as there are and will be other options. His contract and age lower his value to the Leafs and every other team in the league. He is still a #1 goaltender so his value will be positive, but IMO no team is going to give up alot for him.

However, we will see, hopefully soon.

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11-29-2012, 03:21 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by sniper81 View Post
We do need a goalie badly, but should we trade lupul, Kadri and a first for it? we improve our goaltending and create a hole on the first in the top 6, has to make sense for both sides.
Problem is, the majority of offers from Leaf fans do not make sense for Vancouver. We have little use for your fringe players. Lupul is someone of actual value that would have an immediate on our roster. Kadri++ could work in a future's deal but I'd likely want Finn, which many Leaf fans back off from. More often than not, this thread devolves into a "we'll take Luongo only if he's cheap." That is fine, just do not be upset if Canuck fans pass.

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11-29-2012, 03:21 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by sniper81 View Post
We do need a goalie badly, but should we trade lupul, Kadri and a first for it? we improve our goaltending and create a hole on the first in the top 6, has to make sense for both sides.
So which is it? Is the contract bad or are the Leafs just not in a position to trade any valuable assets? I have a feeling the contract is seen as bad because Leaf fans don't want to give anything up.

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11-29-2012, 03:22 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Neutral fan here. I think the deal will be Kulemin, Kadri, conditional first. Condition bring leafs making playoffs or it becomes a second and third.
Could live with it, even if I do believe we could do better.

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11-29-2012, 03:23 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Neutral fan here. I think the deal will be Kulemin, Kadri, conditional first. Condition bring leafs making playoffs or it becomes a second and third.
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Sign me up.
Disagreed.

To me, if the Leafs are giving up that much for a goalie, I want someone younger who will fit with the team age better and doesn't have a contract until the age of 43.

Alternatively, I'd be down for a cheaper veteran goalie who can help fill the gap until Reimer is ready to sink or swim.

Let me clarify my position a bit: The attractive things about Luongo to me were a) a veteran upgrade in net and b) the potential for giving up a cheap return due to contract length and the reported request for a trade. If Vancouver fans are right and b) is off the table, the allure is significantly lessened for me. Call me crazy, but I think that does make a bit of sense...no?

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11-29-2012, 03:26 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Problem is, the majority of offers from Leaf fans do not make sense for Vancouver. We have little use for your fringe players. Lupul is someone of actual value that would have an immediate on our roster. Kadri++ could work in a future's deal but I'd likely want Finn, which many Leaf fans back off from. More often than not, this thread devolves into a "we'll take Luongo only if he's cheap." That is fine, just do not be upset if Canuck fans pass.
I would offer Bozak/kulemin, Aston and Jesse Blacker. I get that Lupul is valuable to you guys, but hes also valuable to us.

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11-29-2012, 03:29 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by sniper81 View Post
I would offer Bozak/kulemin, Aston and Jesse Blacker. I get that Lupul is valuable to you guys, but hes also valuable to us.
Swap Aston or Blacker for Kadri and we'd good. Neither of those two hold much value for us, especially Blacker. Although, I prefer Flyer's proposal.

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11-29-2012, 03:30 PM
  #412
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So which is it? Is the contract bad or are the Leafs just not in a position to trade any valuable assets? I have a feeling the contract is seen as bad because Leaf fans don't want to give anything up.
If Luongo was younger than the landscape of the deal would change.

If Luongo was only signed for 3-4yrs than I'd give up more value in a trade.

Truth is this...

1.He lost his job to a younger cheaper alternative due to his play.

2.He has a NTC which limits where he can be dealt.

3.He has an albatross of a contract.

All those lower his value to a potential suitor. GM's will take advantage of all those factors.

Sure, Luongo is a former allstar, I'm not debating that. There is just too many negative factors there for me to want to pay top dollar for him. No GM would.

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11-29-2012, 03:30 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Swap Aston or Blacker for Kadri and we'd good. Neither of those two hold much value for us, especially Blacker. Although, I prefer Flyer's proposal.
I'd think about it for sure.

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11-29-2012, 03:32 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Disagreed.

To me, if the Leafs are giving up that much for a goalie, I want someone younger who will fit with the team age better and doesn't have a contract until the age of 43.

Alternatively, I'd be down for a cheaper veteran goalie who can help fill the gap until Reimer is ready to sink or swim.

Let me clarify my position a bit: The attractive things about Luongo to me were a) a veteran upgrade in net and b) the potential for giving up a cheap return due to contract length and the reported request for a trade. If Vancouver fans are right and b) is off the table, the allure is significantly lessened for me. Call me crazy, but I think that does make a bit of sense...no?
My question, which has a more positive impact for the next 5 years?

A: Luongo in net...JVR replacing Kuli.
B: Reimer or ?? in net...Kuli scoring 10-20 goals and Kadri playing 2nd-3rd line and the mystery pick.

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11-29-2012, 03:33 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Disagreed.

To me, if the Leafs are giving up that much for a goalie, I want someone younger who will fit with the team age better and doesn't have a contract until the age of 43.

Alternatively, I'd be down for a cheaper veteran goalie who can help fill the gap until Reimer is ready to sink or swim.

Let me clarify my position a bit: The attractive things about Luongo to me were a) a veteran upgrade in net and b) the potential for giving up a cheap return due to contract length and the reported request for a trade. If Vancouver fans are right and b) is off the table, the allure is significantly lessened for me. Call me crazy, but I think that does make a bit of sense...no?
That is a fine stance to have but consider the cost of a younger goalie with high upside. Schneider or Rask would see a Gardiner+ return, if viewed in a vacuum. If Luongo were say, twenty-seven, he would command Kessel if his present statistics remained. Evidently, you prefer the stopgate approach, and fair enough. I have no qualms with people not wanting Lu. Just when they tell us xyz is why he has no value.

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11-29-2012, 03:33 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Swap Aston or Blacker for Kadri and we'd good. Neither of those two hold much value for us, especially Blacker. Although, I prefer Flyer's proposal.
I'd consider Bozak + Kadri + Franson

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11-29-2012, 03:33 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Swap Aston or Blacker for Kadri and we'd good. Neither of those two hold much value for us, especially Blacker. Although, I prefer Flyer's proposal.
So...Kadri,Bozak/Kuli and Blacker?? Even better.

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11-29-2012, 03:35 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Neutral fan here. I think the deal will be Kulemin, Kadri, conditional first. Condition bring leafs making playoffs or it becomes a second and third.
Kulemin is redundant! We have enough 2nd/3rd line tweeners & need an upgrade! How many times does this need to be said in these threads?

We get the same production & defensive ability from Mason Raymond on a cheaper deal to boot!

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11-29-2012, 03:35 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I'd consider Bozak + Kadri + Franson
If all he is asking is Blacker over Franson....you do it in a heartbeat.

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11-29-2012, 03:36 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Not great hockey practice.
Luongo knew what he was getting into when he signed a contract with $1M and $3M seasons tacked on. He also knew that he wasn't getting a NMC...

He didn't care because he also knew that he would retire before those seasons came into play.

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11-29-2012, 03:39 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
That is a fine stance to have but consider the cost of a younger goalie with high upside. Schneider or Rask would see a Gardiner+ return, if viewed in a vacuum. If Luongo were say, twenty-seven, he would command Kessel if his present statistics remained. Evidently, you prefer the stopgate approach, and fair enough. I have no qualms with people not wanting Lu. Just when they tell us xyz is why he has no value.
I'd be more than happy with a Gardiner+ deal if Schneider was on the table. With Rielly on the way and Liles signed up for a few more years, Gardiner would be more than expendable for that type of asset.

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11-29-2012, 03:40 PM
  #422
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I'd be more than happy with a Gardiner+ deal if Schneider was on the table. With Rielly on the way and Liles signed up for a few more years, Gardiner would be more than expendable for that type of asset.
Watch it....you haven't heard the "plus" yet.

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11-29-2012, 03:41 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Watch it....you haven't heard the "plus" yet.
hahah if its lupul and first you would be all for it

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11-29-2012, 03:42 PM
  #424
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So which is it? Is the contract bad or are the Leafs just not in a position to trade any valuable assets? I have a feeling the contract is seen as bad because Leaf fans don't want to give anything up.
They are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.

The contract is bad in terms of length. NOT cap hit.

I don't deny the Leafs' need for a high end starter and I don't deny Luongo could potentially fulfill this need. What I do deny is that the Leafs NEED to get Luongo at what I would consider to be an unreasonable price due to the contract factors and other concerns that have been mercilessly beaten to death in this thread.

If his price is high, it destroys the allure to get him in my mind. I would look to other options personally.

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11-29-2012, 03:46 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
That is a fine stance to have but consider the cost of a younger goalie with high upside. Schneider or Rask would see a Gardiner+ return, if viewed in a vacuum. If Luongo were say, twenty-seven, he would command Kessel if his present statistics remained. Evidently, you prefer the stopgate approach, and fair enough. I have no qualms with people not wanting Lu. Just when they tell us xyz is why he has no value.
I won't say he has no value. I just don't think your asking price is low enough to offset the concerns I have with acquiring Luongo.

You are correct that a young goalie ala Schneider/Rask etc. would cost more and teams may not even be willing to move them. However, I'd consider it a better move because to be perfectly honest, acquiring Luongo scares me.

Depending on how long the season will be I'm almost wondering if it might be better from a Leafs perspective to try to pick up a vet backup and then go after goaltending help in the offseason. To me, the stopgap approach while waiting on Reimer or another drafted or acquired young goalie seems a good course. I believe it would be the course the Leafs would follow anyway were they to acquire Luongo only with a long contract possibly getting in the way.

Again, all my opinion. I honestly have no clue which way Burke will go on this. Should be interesting.

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