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Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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11-29-2012, 01:26 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You will never change - you're still the same old flamer and troller that you've always been. Your point is to denigrate the KHL and Russian hockey in general by saying that a guy who would be hard pressed to make an AHL team can just drop by Russia and immediately become the best player in the KHL, even though in fact those very guys from the KHL often beat Canadian NHL stars in the WC. Don't you ever get tired of yourself?
grow up, you're only angry because I was right

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11-29-2012, 01:29 PM
  #152
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The WC and the OG have the same advantages and disadvantages applying to everybody, so they are valid tournaments for determining which team wins at that moment.
All but one WC and one OG have been played on European sized ice. Does that not give the Euro teams an advantage?

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11-29-2012, 01:34 PM
  #153
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The WC and the OG have the same advantages and disadvantages applying to everybody, so they are valid tournaments for determining which team wins at that moment.
I don't believe for a second that you actually believe the WCs have a level playing field. How could it when it's played at a time when every European league is done and the NHL isn't? Also, if you're going to argue out of one side of your mouth that the '76 Canada Cup didn't count because Russia didn't bring its best, you can't argue out of the other side that the worlds are valid even though some teams bring a higher percentage of their best than others.

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11-29-2012, 01:54 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
All but one WC and one OG have been played on European sized ice. Does that not give the Euro teams an advantage?
No. More often than not, the host country isn't even a contender for a medal. Referees are from neutral countries, and the same terms and conditions apply to everyone. The purpose of IIHF WC is to crown a World Champion, while the purpose of the Canada Cup was to gather money for the NHLPA and to entertain Canadian fans.

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11-29-2012, 02:04 PM
  #155
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I don't believe for a second that you actually believe the WCs have a level playing field. How could it when it's played at a time when every European league is done and the NHL isn't? Also, if you're going to argue out of one side of your mouth that the '76 Canada Cup didn't count because Russia didn't bring its best, you can't argue out of the other side that the worlds are valid even though some teams bring a higher percentage of their best than others.
I am only arguing that it is a valid and fair tournament for the teams that are assembled. Of the 30 NHL teams, 22 have been eliminated from the playoffs in time for the WC, so it is theoretically possible that Canada's best players could actually be available to play in the WC. If they choose not to play, that's their business. Also, other nations such as Russia are affected by those 8 NHL teams still playing. Last year, guys like Kovalchuk and Anisimov and Voynov would have been contenders to make the Russian team.

In regard to the '76 Canada Cup, I was only giving an example of when the tournament was not best on best. The Soviets chose to leave those players at home, probably to get a look at younger players in that competitive setting, but their best were not there.

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11-29-2012, 02:20 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I am only arguing that it is a valid and fair tournament for the teams that are assembled. Of the 30 NHL teams, 22 have been eliminated from the playoffs in time for the WC, so it is theoretically possible that Canada's best players could actually be available to play in the WC. If they choose not to play, that's their business. Also, other nations such as Russia are affected by those 8 NHL teams still playing. Last year, guys like Kovalchuk and Anisimov and Voynov would have been contenders to make the Russian team.

In regard to the '76 Canada Cup, I was only giving an example of when the tournament was not best on best. The Soviets chose to leave those players at home, probably to get a look at younger players in that competitive setting, but their best were not there.
Hey, I love the worlds and all international hockey. It's fun to win but it's not indicative of much of anything and certainly not worthy of the whooping and chest-thumping that goes on in Moscow every time Russia wins.

If you're going to shoot holes in the Canada/World Cup, you have to recognize the holes that already in the worlds. Yeah, Russia is also affected by those still playing in the NHL, but when fewer Russians are playing in the NHL now than a few years ago (there were only six Russians in the NHL playoffs in 2011 and 12 last season,) it has much less of an effect on them than on Canada.

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11-29-2012, 03:10 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You will never change - you're still the same old flamer and troller that you've always been. Your point is to denigrate the KHL and Russian hockey in general by saying that a guy who would be hard pressed to make an AHL team can just drop by Russia and immediately become the best player in the KHL, even though in fact those very guys from the KHL often beat Canadian NHL stars in the WC. Don't you ever get tired of yourself?
Maybe one of the best. Top 3 in scoring each year among D the past 5 seasons. Not bad for a person you categorize as a person hard pressed to make an AHL team. Seems to be flourishing in the KHL. Good for him.

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11-29-2012, 03:31 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
What evidence do you have that this has any impact on player performance?
Well there are plenty of player quotes, plus a bit of common sense. Have you ever lived in a foreign country for a long period of time?

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11-29-2012, 03:31 PM
  #159
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Technically, I'm guessing that no tournament is ever "best on best".

Someone is left off, or someone is injured, and the definition of what the "best" line-up is will be arguable anyway.

In terms of trying to use international hockey results to try and generate some kind of ranking, in all of the years of debating this ad nauseum, it basically comes down to the fact that North Americans don't ascribe any value to WC victories while the Europeans don't ascribe any value to the World Cup / Canada Cup.

The best thing for the World Cup would have been if Finland had won in 2004. You'd better believe that they'd instantly become the biggest supporters of the tournament as an example of the closest one can get to a "best on best" tournament.

In any event, if those two tournaments cancel each other out, that leaves the WJC and the Olympics.

The WJC is rigged against teams with smaller populations, because the age restriction has a larger impact on the pool of available players.

So I'd be tempted to put that one aside as well.

It really is a Canadian phenomenon, and has become all wrapped up in Christmas tradition here in Canada due to TSN needing to broadcast hockey back in its early days when they couldn't show NHL games. They essentially created the buzz around the tournament during the big 5 gold streak in the 90s, and this coincided with TSN evolving into the upper echelons of sports broadcasting in Canada.

Older folks around here will remember TSN Pub Night where they'd show darts or snooker. It was a pretty adorable little network back in those days.

You are starting to see other countries take notice because Canada makes such a big deal about it. It's the ultimate spoiler to beat the Canadians at the WJC, particularly on home soil.

What's left?

The Olympics.

That's it. There's no quibbling about schedule (during the NHL playoffs, in the summer), or who is or isn't available. The officiating complaints aren't as loud as in the WCs or World Cup/Canada Cup.

One tournament to judge the "best team" on the planet, and it only comes along every 4 years.

I made a point of saying that I considered Sweden the top team on the planet for the 2006 win, just like the Czechs in 1998. It's a title they get to hold for 4 years, because as far as I'm concerned, the other tournaments just don't work as proxies for that ranking.

That's just my personal opinion, but from a competition point of view, it's the only one that really counts.

You can try and evaluate the countries based on the players they produce, but without the head-to-head competition, it becomes a paper exercise that resolves even less than a short single elimination tournament.

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11-29-2012, 03:39 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Technically, I'm guessing that no tournament is ever "best on best".

Someone is left off, or someone is injured, and the definition of what the "best" line-up is will be arguable anyway.

In terms of trying to use international hockey results to try and generate some kind of ranking, in all of the years of debating this ad nauseum, it basically comes down to the fact that North Americans don't ascribe any value to WC victories while the Europeans don't ascribe any value to the World Cup / Canada Cup.

The best thing for the World Cup would have been if Finland had won in 2004. You'd better believe that they'd instantly become the biggest supporters of the tournament as an example of the closest one can get to a "best on best" tournament.

In any event, if those two tournaments cancel each other out, that leaves the WJC and the Olympics.

The WJC is rigged against teams with smaller populations, because the age restriction has a larger impact on the pool of available players.

So I'd be tempted to put that one aside as well.

It really is a Canadian phenomenon, and has become all wrapped up in Christmas tradition here in Canada due to TSN needing to broadcast hockey back in its early days when they couldn't show NHL games. They essentially created the buzz around the tournament during the big 5 gold streak in the 90s, and this coincided with TSN evolving into the upper echelons of sports broadcasting in Canada.

Older folks around here will remember TSN Pub Night where they'd show darts or snooker. It was a pretty adorable little network back in those days.

You are starting to see other countries take notice because Canada makes such a big deal about it. It's the ultimate spoiler to beat the Canadians at the WJC, particularly on home soil.

What's left?

The Olympics.

That's it. There's no quibbling about schedule (during the NHL playoffs, in the summer), or who is or isn't available. The officiating complaints aren't as loud as in the WCs or World Cup/Canada Cup.

One tournament to judge the "best team" on the planet, and it only comes along every 4 years.

I made a point of saying that I considered Sweden the top team on the planet for the 2006 win, just like the Czechs in 1998. It's a title they get to hold for 4 years, because as far as I'm concerned, the other tournaments just don't work as proxies for that ranking.

That's just my personal opinion, but from a competition point of view, it's the only one that really counts.

You can try and evaluate the countries based on the players they produce, but without the head-to-head competition, it becomes a paper exercise that resolves even less than a short single elimination tournament.

Ahhh but small sample size! Who knows what would have happened in a seven game Canada-Russia series.

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11-29-2012, 03:48 PM
  #161
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Ahhh but small sample size! Who knows what would have happened in a seven game Canada-Russia series.
No length of tournament would ever be sufficient to be conclusive.

I'm working with what we've got.

Soccer has the World Cup.

Ultimately, that's the most important measure. FIFA rankings just keep people clicking on their website.


Last edited by NyQuil: 11-29-2012 at 03:54 PM.
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11-29-2012, 05:34 PM
  #162
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Hey, I love the worlds and all international hockey. It's fun to win but it's not indicative of much of anything and certainly not worthy of the whooping and chest-thumping that goes on in Moscow every time Russia wins.

If you're going to shoot holes in the Canada/World Cup, you have to recognize the holes that already in the worlds. Yeah, Russia is also affected by those still playing in the NHL, but when fewer Russians are playing in the NHL now than a few years ago (there were only six Russians in the NHL playoffs in 2011 and 12 last season,) it has much less of an effect on them than on Canada.
We're probably at a point where there is no sense pursuing this discussion, because you are assuming that complaints that the Soviets got screwed by Alan Eagleson in the Canada Cups are just fueled by sour grapes because in the end, the Soviets lost. Even though Alan Eagleson served a lot of time in prison for every conceivable integrity violation known to man (is he still in prison?), when it came to the Canada Cup, you just assume that he was motivated solely by the spirit of fair play and the spirit of love and Jesus. Even though, in addition to the fact he was the union boss, de facto director of the league, and player agent for some of the league's top talent (Bobby Orr being one), you give him the benefit of the doubt for not intervening to ensure that his empire didn't get labeled Brand X by the Soviets. I can't overcome that, so we can agree to disagree on that.

As for the Worlds, its unreasonable to expect the IIHF to postpone them until July to accommodate the Stanley Cup playoffs. Even if they did, the Canadian players still wouldn't come because, hey, its July! The rest of the World wants to play them in May.

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11-29-2012, 06:39 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
No length of tournament would ever be sufficient to be conclusive.

I'm working with what we've got.

Soccer has the World Cup.

Ultimately, that's the most important measure. FIFA rankings just keep people clicking on their website.
I saw some statistical conclusion that said not only does a 36 game season not a large enough sample size to conclusively support the best team, but that it would take seven!

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11-29-2012, 07:37 PM
  #164
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No. More often than not, the host country isn't even a contender for a medal. Referees are from neutral countries, and the same terms and conditions apply to everyone. The purpose of IIHF WC is to crown a World Champion, while the purpose of the Canada Cup was to gather money for the NHLPA and to entertain Canadian fans.
So playing on European sized ice doesn't give the teams from Europe an advantage over those from NA? Plus I want the most qualified officials, what has where they come from got to do with it?

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11-29-2012, 07:46 PM
  #165
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Well there are plenty of player quotes, plus a bit of common sense. Have you ever lived in a foreign country for a long period of time?
I'm sure it is hard for some players to adjust socially but I'm not convinced that has much if any impact on how they play. Maybe feeling isolated makes it easier for some players to focus on their sport. Look at soccer for example, it is extremely common for players to play for clubs in foreign countries and I don't think it is that big an issue there.

I haven't lived abroad ever, but I have certainly traveled extensively, I'm a dual Canadian / EU citizen, as are my wife and kids, and I can understand how it would be hard for people to adjust, just not sure that translates to poor performance on the ice.

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11-29-2012, 08:36 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I'm sure it is hard for some players to adjust socially but I'm not convinced that has much if any impact on how they play. Maybe feeling isolated makes it easier for some players to focus on their sport. Look at soccer for example, it is extremely common for players to play for clubs in foreign countries and I don't think it is that big an issue there.

I haven't lived abroad ever, but I have certainly traveled extensively, I'm a dual Canadian / EU citizen, as are my wife and kids, and I can understand how it would be hard for people to adjust, just not sure that translates to poor performance on the ice.
If you follow soccer you can find multiple stories of players failing to adjust to different cultures or climates. Many South Americans struggle with the English weather, food whatever and want to leave and go to Spain where the culture and climate is similar. Karim Benzema for example showed up at Real Madrid and was given no support, simply given a shirt and told to show up and play. I've been told similar stories of a Brazilian in Manchester who was never given language lessons, no help for his wife, who didn't speak English, no help finding his kids a school, no help with grocery shopping figuring out where to find familiar foods or how to figure out the local culture. Now would you think that with your wife moaning about the weather, struggling and upset about the kids and every day you are coming home to problems and misery with no support, you don't think that will affect your ability to perform on the field? Conversely Lyon has successfully integrated South American players because they provide extensive off field support. They hire relocation advisors, common in the corporate world. When their new Brazilian signing shows up he is given a personal translator, language classes set up, a school is found for the kids, a local group of Brazilians (or whoever) is found for the wife to make friends and find support. Off field matters are taken care of so that the player can focus on playing.

Now in hockey I'm less familiar with the background works, but I know that there is a reason a young Evgeni Malkin was housed in Sergei Gonchar's house. (Just like Sidney Crosby lived with Mario, and other young players often do the same, but I would argue that it's more important for foreign players.) Not every person is the same. Some players don't mind the culture shock, they can concentrate on the game better than others. Some are affected by it. Now I think NHL teams are a bit better than most European soccer clubs at taking care of their players, but it is a factor for Russian and European players.

Conversely I know of several Canadian players who have struggled mightily in Russia both during this lockout and others.

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11-29-2012, 08:54 PM
  #167
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IF russia wins in 2014 perhaps they can make a claim but seeing as the core group will be largely the same as the one that did not medal in vancouver the chances of winning are VERY small

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11-29-2012, 10:30 PM
  #168
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If you follow soccer you can find multiple stories of players failing to adjust to different cultures or climates. Many South Americans struggle with the English weather, food whatever and want to leave and go to Spain where the culture and climate is similar. Karim Benzema for example showed up at Real Madrid and was given no support, simply given a shirt and told to show up and play. I've been told similar stories of a Brazilian in Manchester who was never given language lessons, no help for his wife, who didn't speak English, no help finding his kids a school, no help with grocery shopping figuring out where to find familiar foods or how to figure out the local culture. Now would you think that with your wife moaning about the weather, struggling and upset about the kids and every day you are coming home to problems and misery with no support, you don't think that will affect your ability to perform on the field? Conversely Lyon has successfully integrated South American players because they provide extensive off field support. They hire relocation advisors, common in the corporate world. When their new Brazilian signing shows up he is given a personal translator, language classes set up, a school is found for the kids, a local group of Brazilians (or whoever) is found for the wife to make friends and find support. Off field matters are taken care of so that the player can focus on playing.

Now in hockey I'm less familiar with the background works, but I know that there is a reason a young Evgeni Malkin was housed in Sergei Gonchar's house. (Just like Sidney Crosby lived with Mario, and other young players often do the same, but I would argue that it's more important for foreign players.) Not every person is the same. Some players don't mind the culture shock, they can concentrate on the game better than others. Some are affected by it. Now I think NHL teams are a bit better than most European soccer clubs at taking care of their players, but it is a factor for Russian and European players.

Conversely I know of several Canadian players who have struggled mightily in Russia both during this lockout and others.
I think it is very hard to quantify, some it may help, some it may hurt, hard to say what the average impact is.

Socially speaking I would say that language is the biggest hurdle, followed by culture, with things like climate (at least for hockey players) and food being much less significant. The difference in language and culture between french Quebec and english North America is similar to that between Europe and North America and I don't ever recall this being an issue in terms of player performance for French Canadians. Likewise a lot of anglophones from Atlantic Canada, such as Crosby, have to play junior hockey in Quebec and again I'm not aware of this being a major (or even minor) issue.

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11-30-2012, 02:17 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I think it is very hard to quantify, some it may help, some it may hurt, hard to say what the average impact is.

Socially speaking I would say that language is the biggest hurdle, followed by culture, with things like climate (at least for hockey players) and food being much less significant. The difference in language and culture between french Quebec and english North America is similar to that between Europe and North America and I don't ever recall this being an issue in terms of player performance for French Canadians. Likewise a lot of anglophones from Atlantic Canada, such as Crosby, have to play junior hockey in Quebec and again I'm not aware of this being a major (or even minor) issue.
First of all there is a difference between different European countries. It's much easier for Swedes on average than Russians. Russian culture is much different from North America. French Canadiens generally have a lot more exposure to English Canada and American culture and are much more familiar with it.

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11-30-2012, 06:23 AM
  #170
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First of all there is a difference between different European countries. It's much easier for Swedes on average than Russians. Russian culture is much different from North America. French Canadiens generally have a lot more exposure to English Canada and American culture and are much more familiar with it.
Yes there are differences and varying degrees of severity but if this impact on player performance was that big an issue it should have appeared with French Canadians, even if it was to a lesser degree than say Russians. As a side note you might be interested to know that a higher percentage of Swedes and Finns speak english than do the Quebecois. I should also mention that there are loads of new immigrants in all NHL cities these days, and BTW a lot more of them are from Russia than say Quebec or any other hockey country.

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11-30-2012, 12:16 PM
  #171
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First of all there is a difference between different European countries. It's much easier for Swedes on average than Russians. Russian culture is much different from North America. French Canadiens generally have a lot more exposure to English Canada and American culture and are much more familiar with it.
Of course you are 100% correct in saying that it is infinitely more difficult to make the social, cultural and even language transition from Canada to Russia than it is from English-speaking Canada to French-speaking Canada. Canada is Canada. The problem is that you're wasting your time trying to convince people who are more interested in keeping an argument going than they are in honestly discussing the matter.

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11-30-2012, 05:04 PM
  #172
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IF russia wins in 2014 perhaps they can make a claim but seeing as the core group will be largely the same as the one that did not medal in vancouver the chances of winning are VERY small
Don't underestimate a little home ice emotion.

It can definitely go either way, given the pressure, but I wouldn't count them out at all.

No one will want to win more, particularly given how the Russians exited the last Olympics.

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11-30-2012, 05:10 PM
  #173
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Of course you are 100% correct in saying that it is infinitely more difficult to make the social, cultural and even language transition from Canada to Russia than it is from English-speaking Canada to French-speaking Canada. Canada is Canada. The problem is that you're wasting your time trying to convince people who are more interested in keeping an argument going than they are in honestly discussing the matter.
you've already shown in this thread that you know little or nothing about the KHL and I'm guessing the same is true regarding the differences between english North America and french Quebec. I would point out the obvious that most NHL teams are not in Canada but it is clear that trying to have any sort of logical discussion with you is a complete waste of time.

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11-30-2012, 05:41 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
IF russia wins in 2014 perhaps they can make a claim but seeing as the core group will be largely the same as the one that did not medal in vancouver the chances of winning are VERY small
This is nonsense.

Why do people reference one off games as definitive evidence that the reverse cannot happen. It isn't like we are talking about an elite team facing a good team. Both teams are filled with exceptional players and are capable of beating each other in any game. Variables like goaltending, lucky bounces, deviation in performances from top players, one exceptional play, discipline or even the flu can alter the results of these games.

The NHL has relatively parity. So why wouldn't international ice hockey?

At the elite elite elite level, the outcome of a game between two competitors can vary each time they meet.

OT : Mr Kanadensisk, you're not even a funny troll. If you're going to troll, please inject some humour into it.

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11-30-2012, 05:51 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
you've already shown in this thread that you know little or nothing about the KHL and I'm guessing the same is true regarding the differences between english North America and french Quebec. I would point out the obvious that most NHL teams are not in Canada but it is clear that trying to have any sort of logical discussion with you is a complete waste of time.
Well u cant compare Russia to any western european country. They got a different alphabet, they behave different and since Russia is a big country, they dnt need to learn english etc. French Canada is still Canada and they are also westerners. Ofc its alot harder for a russian player to adapt, than a canadian frenchie. The russian needs to learn a new alphabet, new culture (im not talking about going from Borscht to big mac, but russians behave in their own way. They need to behave in a more western way to fit in), smaller rinks, bigger arenas and english speaking teammates.

U should also know that the english language has been influenced by french, german, norwegian etc. So english is closer to french, than russian.

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