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The Official Arena Thread Part 6

View Poll Results: On what day will city council vote to finalize a new arena for Edmonton's downtown?
Between now and Christmas 2012 8 7.41%
Between New Year's Day and the end of February 2013 30 27.78%
Between March and July, 2013 16 14.81%
Before the October 2013 civic election 14 12.96%
Not until 2014 4 3.70%
Not until 2015 3 2.78%
Not until 2016 1 0.93%
Not until 2017 6 5.56%
Never 26 24.07%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-29-2012, 03:03 PM
  #351
molsonmuscle360
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about. Do you honestly claim to know what most Edmontonians think about raising their property taxes so that the Oilers owner can turn a profit?




a) you're wrong about that.
b) you're wrong about who should and shouldn't have an NHL team.

The model is broken, not the fans willingness to pay. Already Oiler fans are paying for high priced tickets AND you think its right to demand that all Edmontonians, non Oiler fans as well to pay a tax to them?

The problem is that the NHL team financial model is broken - if a team needs the local citizenry to donate monies for the team to be financially solvent - then I suggest the problem isn't the citizenry. It's the team and the model.

Which is the crux of why there is a lockout. Can NHL owners be financially profitable longterm under the current CBA? Nope. And its not up to us (local city) to bail them out. I don't understand why that's so difficult to understand.
On the other hand though, shouldn't the city hold some financial responsibility to help out when a business owner decides to help reinvent the downtown core? Now I don't think he should get it just bought and paid for, but I think the city should get involved quite heavily in it.

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11-29-2012, 03:03 PM
  #352
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You seem to remember nothing about what would be required to obtain a gaming licence in the province of Alberta, i.e. this being provincial domain and specifically that application would need to be made with AGLC and that Katz hasn't pursued this. Nor have you even considered that his political donation fiasco rules out his chances of obtaining such a license.

The Conservative Party may as well abdicate if they were stupid enough to allow such a licence to be granted to Katz at this point.
doens't matter what the conservatives do. the sheep will keep voting them in. they proved before the last election they were corrupt, out of touch and will just piss all our money away. yet look at the majority they won with.
The government's actions since the last election, including their lies about the budget, will be forgotten. they'll wave more money that they don't have at people, call the wildrose scary and too inexperienced, then keep screwing over Albertans.

They could give Katz everything he wants and I would put money on there not being any long term fallout that would lose their majority government.

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11-29-2012, 04:11 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
On the other hand though, shouldn't the city hold some financial responsibility to help out when a business owner decides to help reinvent the downtown core? Now I don't think he should get it just bought and paid for, but I think the city should get involved quite heavily in it.
Yeah for sure.
Epcor shpould have demanded a casino liscence for building its tower .
Btw, what concessions did EPCOR get from the City for building the its hi rise?
Anyways, whats done is done. The City was poised to do a sweetheart deal for Katz. He moved the goal posts & reneged as usual. I just cant see what the City has done where anyone can rightfully call them "idiots" on any of this, or for the length of time it took.

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11-29-2012, 04:24 PM
  #354
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Yeah for sure.
Epcor shpould have demanded a casino liscence for building its tower .
Btw, what concessions did EPCOR get from the City for building the its hi rise?
Anyways, whats done is done. The City was poised to do a sweetheart deal for Katz. He moved the goal posts & reneged as usual. I just cant see what the City has done where anyone can rightfully call them "idiots" on any of this, or for the length of time it took.
You know what, you are totally right. You should have every business in the city prop themselves up completely, no matter what kind of luster they add to the city. I sure know that everyone out there thinks of Edmonton when they hear the name Epcor. And those guys at Epcor. The kids sure look up to them, and they sure light up the Stollery when they go down there to visit and hand out autographs. Or how about all those Epcor execs who dye their hair pink and have local kids shave it all off for Cancer charities.......

Oh wait, all of that is the Oilers. People forget about all the things that the franchise does that is good for the city, and the entire region of Northern Alberta. All people seem to care about is Katz and his donations to a political party. Honestly, I could give a **** about his political contributions. And before you accuse me of being a conservative, I'm actually a NDP voter and have been for over a decade.

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11-29-2012, 04:37 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
You know what, you are totally right. You should have every business in the city prop themselves up completely, no matter what kind of luster they add to the city. I sure know that everyone out there thinks of Edmonton when they hear the name Epcor. And those guys at Epcor. The kids sure look up to them, and they sure light up the Stollery when they go down there to visit and hand out autographs. Or how about all those Epcor execs who dye their hair pink and have local kids shave it all off for Cancer charities.......

Oh wait, all of that is the Oilers. People forget about all the things that the franchise does that is good for the city, and the entire region of Northern Alberta. All people seem to care about is Katz and his donations to a political party. Honestly, I could give a **** about his political contributions. And before you accuse me of being a conservative, I'm actually a NDP voter and have been for over a decade.
I thought you said the City should help out buisness owners who want to (and amazingly actually do) help prop up the downtown?

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11-29-2012, 04:43 PM
  #356
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Yeah for sure.
Epcor shpould have demanded a casino liscence for building its tower .
Btw, what concessions did EPCOR get from the City for building the its hi rise?
Anyways, whats done is done. The City was poised to do a sweetheart deal for Katz. He moved the goal posts & reneged as usual. I just cant see what the City has done where anyone can rightfully call them "idiots" on any of this, or for the length of time it took.
I said the word idiots. that may be a bit harsh, but the city has to take some of the blame for a "negotiation" that has stretched for 5 years. It's not like the city had done a perfect job and the problems are all on Katz. there seems to be a few people with the city who are being obstinate for no good reason, or want to curry public favour by "standing up to the billionaire"
I think both sides are equally to blame for such a pathetic, drawn out process which still has no end in sight.

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11-29-2012, 04:47 PM
  #357
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I thought you said the City should help out buisness owners who want to (and amazingly actually do) help prop up the downtown?
Epcor gets plenty of breaks from the government I'm sure. Whether it be local, provincial or federal, if you think an oil company isn't getting extras then you are delusional.

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11-29-2012, 04:47 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Gord View Post
I think both sides are equally to blame for such a pathetic, drawn out process which still has no end in sight.
When anyone says the word "equally to blame", I tend to mean they have no idea what they're talking about or no balls to call one side out or the other.

Nothing is ever equal.

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11-29-2012, 05:08 PM
  #359
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Epcor gets plenty of breaks from the government I'm sure. Whether it be local, provincial or federal, if you think an oil company isn't getting extras then you are delusional.
Really. For building the new Epcor tower?
Please provide a link please.

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11-29-2012, 05:12 PM
  #360
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It would only be a charity if the benevolent billionaire decided to eat the losses (long-term) for you.

At a cost of $5-$15 a year in additional property taxes less the external benefit of injecting some life into the downtown? I doubt most Edmontonians share your view or at least they wouldn't share your view after living without an NHL team for a few years.

If I am wrong about that and people aren't willing to pay any additional taxes to keep the Oilers in Edmonton, we shouldn't have an NHL team.
Imaginary hypothetical losses?

The guy is making money with a last place team in an old building in a small market and no playoff revenue.

The only benevolence in this scenario is being put forth by the taxpayer.

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11-29-2012, 05:24 PM
  #361
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Really. For building the new Epcor tower?
Please provide a link please.
I never said specifically for the tower, but still gets tax breaks based on being an oil company in Alberta. And to be honest, why should they? What benefit does the average citizen get from Epcor Tower? An entertainment district and an office building are two completely different animals.

I'm not trying to say we should all line Katz's pockets with money, but if the city wants the Oilers to stay, they should want the team in an arena that shows pride in the team and a team that makes some money. I don't think it's fair to expect Katz to keep a team that he owns in Edmonton if people want him to lose money on it or just break even when he and the organization as a whole has done a lot for Northern Alberta over the years. I would not be opposed to even see my taxes here in Fort McMurray go up to help support the Arena because myself, and many many people I know take advantage of major events in Edmonton.

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11-29-2012, 05:30 PM
  #362
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Maybe someone should define what an oil company is, because Epcor is NOT an oil company. They are a utility and distribution company in water and electricity.

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11-29-2012, 05:42 PM
  #363
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Maybe someone should define what an oil company is, because Epcor is NOT an oil company. They are a utility and distribution company in water and electricity.
Sorry, I thought for some reason they were an oil company. I stand completely corrected, and admit that I am quite wrong on that front thank you. (See folks, you can admit that you are wrong on the internet....try it sometimes)

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11-29-2012, 05:44 PM
  #364
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You have no idea what you're talking about. Do you honestly claim to know what most Edmontonians think about raising their property taxes so that the Oilers owner can turn a profit?




a) you're wrong about that.
b) you're wrong about who should and shouldn't have an NHL team.

The model is broken, not the fans willingness to pay. Already Oiler fans are paying for high priced tickets AND you think its right to demand that all Edmontonians, non Oiler fans as well to pay a tax to them?

The problem is that the NHL team financial model is broken - if a team needs the local citizenry to donate monies for the team to be financially solvent - then I suggest the problem isn't the citizenry. It's the team and the model.

Which is the crux of why there is a lockout. Can NHL owners be financially profitable longterm under the current CBA? Nope. And its not up to us (local city) to bail them out. I don't understand why that's so difficult to understand.
The NHL isn't viable for all but the biggest hockey markets. That is why a large percentage of NHL arenas are publicly financed and it is why there is currently a lockout.

The only cure for this is NFL style revenue sharing and the NHL has shown no signs that it is willing to go down that road.

The league will blow up this season (at tremendous cost) and ring concessions from the players in an effort to make the league viable for smaller markets. If history is a guide, within 2 years the big market teams will exploit loopholes in the CBA to drive up player costs again and at expiry of the agreement there will be another lockout (at tremendous cost).

I love Edmonton but I do so knowing full well that we are a tiny city with a volatile economy. Worse than that, our NHL team's player costs are denominated in a foreign currency that has appreciated to such an extent in the past that the team was shelling out a $1.58 CAD for every $1 USD players were owed.

I didn't make the world; I just try and live in it. Unless a local billionaire is feeling particularly benevolent that means I have to give up a lunch at Subway ($5-$15) once a year to live in a city with an NHL team. That's just the way it's going to be. You can moan about it and curse Katz for being a greedy so and so after he sells the team and it leaves town, or you can accept it and buy one less foot long combo.

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11-30-2012, 12:30 AM
  #365
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If what's happened with the Coyotes has shown us anything it's that those long term commitments arent worth a whole lot. The City of Glendale had a long term agreement with the Coyotes but when the economics didnt end up working out and the owner declared bankruptcy they were at risk of losing the team. Now they end up paying through the nose to keep the team despite the fact they already had a long term agreement. I'm fine without any 35 year "guarantee".

However, the NHL is moving Heaven and Earth to avoid breaking that covenant.

It may not be smart money, but the League is sticking by a City that built the sort of building they wanted.

The lesson is clear. No building (NYI) or no owners who want it (Atlanta) and your team can be gone.

Edmonton is risking going 0'fer.

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11-30-2012, 12:32 AM
  #366
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You seem to remember nothing about what would be required to obtain a gaming licence in the province of Alberta, i.e. this being provincial domain and specifically that application would need to be made with AGLC and that Katz hasn't pursued this. Nor have you even considered that his political donation fiasco rules out his chances of obtaining such a license.

The Conservative Party may as well abdicate if they were stupid enough to allow such a licence to be granted to Katz at this point.

So, you admit the government is in the business of approving and denying what AGLC does.

It isn't all about a set of rules in some book.

Thanks for that.

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11-30-2012, 02:58 AM
  #367
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So, you admit the government is in the business of approving and denying what AGLC does.

It isn't all about a set of rules in some book.

Thanks for that.
It's all politics. Katz knows that full well.

The problem on top of that is when the Oilers and the city agreed on their frame work there wasn't a moratorium on casino licenses.

The AGLC just decided to set up an arbitrary one in the months afterwards.

So yes, to get the wheels turning on this, the Katz group would likely need some help from the government to put some pressure on the fat cats hoarding licenses at the AGLC.

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11-30-2012, 08:11 AM
  #368
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When anyone says the word "equally to blame", I tend to mean they have no idea what they're talking about or no balls to call one side out or the other.

Nothing is ever equal.
does it have to be black or white? ok. maybe it's 47% to 53% I don't know.
Why would it take balls to say it's almost all Katz fault, or all the citys fault? or woulkd you prefer people just take a side and blindly blame the other?

but when each sides seems to make missteps and also just tries to use the media against each other instead of working with each other, it makes one wonder.

Katz group seems to have made some questionable comments and demands, but are you going to tell me that the city has done nothing but work hard to put together a deal that is fair for the Oilers, the city, and the taxpayers? that seems naive, to say the least.

I personally think Katz keeps changing the parameters of what he is asking for and is trying to bend the city over. I also think the city pisses away so much money that they could easily find savings to help fund the arena. (there is no reason why our taxes and utitlities should go up 5% every year other than the city spending money poorly.)

it's not being stupid or having no balls to be frustrated at both sides inability to work together towards a shared goal.

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11-30-2012, 08:15 AM
  #369
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I never said specifically for the tower, but still gets tax breaks based on being an oil company in Alberta. And to be honest, why should they? What benefit does the average citizen get from Epcor Tower? An entertainment district and an office building are two completely different animals.

I'm not trying to say we should all line Katz's pockets with money, but if the city wants the Oilers to stay, they should want the team in an arena that shows pride in the team and a team that makes some money. I don't think it's fair to expect Katz to keep a team that he owns in Edmonton if people want him to lose money on it or just break even when he and the organization as a whole has done a lot for Northern Alberta over the years. I would not be opposed to even see my taxes here in Fort McMurray go up to help support the Arena because myself, and many many people I know take advantage of major events in Edmonton.
You do realize EPCOR provided $140M to the city of Edmonton last year alone.

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11-30-2012, 09:15 AM
  #370
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does it have to be black or white? ok. maybe it's 47% to 53% I don't know.
Why would it take balls to say it's almost all Katz fault, or all the citys fault? or woulkd you prefer people just take a side and blindly blame the other?

but when each sides seems to make missteps and also just tries to use the media against each other instead of working with each other, it makes one wonder.

Katz group seems to have made some questionable comments and demands, but are you going to tell me that the city has done nothing but work hard to put together a deal that is fair for the Oilers, the city, and the taxpayers? that seems naive, to say the least.

I personally think Katz keeps changing the parameters of what he is asking for and is trying to bend the city over. I also think the city pisses away so much money that they could easily find savings to help fund the arena. (there is no reason why our taxes and utitlities should go up 5% every year other than the city spending money poorly.)

it's not being stupid or having no balls to be frustrated at both sides inability to work together towards a shared goal.
What mistakes has the City made, other than not giving Katz a blank cheque?

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11-30-2012, 09:21 AM
  #371
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It's all politics. Katz knows that full well.

The problem on top of that is when the Oilers and the city agreed on their frame work there wasn't a moratorium on casino licenses.

The AGLC just decided to set up an arbitrary one in the months afterwards.

So yes, to get the wheels turning on this, the Katz group would likely need some help from the government to put some pressure on the fat cats hoarding licenses at the AGLC.
Yeah, but this is a red herring. The casino liscence is just another one of Katz's "wants",was not agreed to, that is not at all needed in order to make the arena venture hugely profitable for him. Its really just another example of Katz moving the goal posts & being a hog wanting to get more & more $$ money & concessions. And we all know what they say about that. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered

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11-30-2012, 09:22 AM
  #372
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So, you admit the government is in the business of approving and denying what AGLC does.

It isn't all about a set of rules in some book.

Thanks for that.
Well I'm not naive enough to think that at this point that it would be strictly an arms length AGLC only deal with them having complete autonomy presently. If AGLC approved a Casino at this point it would be toxic. As it is the Provincial Govt. is staggering and reeling.

I'm not saying this is typical, but these are atypical times for the Conservatives here.

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11-30-2012, 09:27 AM
  #373
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It's all politics. Katz knows that full well.

The problem on top of that is when the Oilers and the city agreed on their frame work there wasn't a moratorium on casino licenses.

The AGLC just decided to set up an arbitrary one in the months afterwards.

So yes, to get the wheels turning on this, the Katz group would likely need some help from the government to put some pressure on the fat cats hoarding licenses at the AGLC.
For one, what on Earth are you talking about. Secondly any citations for any of this?

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11-30-2012, 09:30 AM
  #374
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doens't matter what the conservatives do. the sheep will keep voting them in. they proved before the last election they were corrupt, out of touch and will just piss all our money away. yet look at the majority they won with.
The government's actions since the last election, including their lies about the budget, will be forgotten. they'll wave more money that they don't have at people, call the wildrose scary and too inexperienced, then keep screwing over Albertans.

They could give Katz everything he wants and I would put money on there not being any long term fallout that would lose their majority government.
As much corruption as theres been I dare say I prefer the incumbent brand than Wildrose turning us into a "burning lake of fire" international laughingstock with its leader decrying science.

Careful what you wish for on that front.

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11-30-2012, 09:37 AM
  #375
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Epcor did not build the tower, it was Qualico. Epcor has naming rights due to their massive lease space.

Katz agreed to a framework - which is AGREEING to the deal. It is 100% his fault. The city has bent over backwards to give him money, he wasn't putting a single dollar into the deal.

He can get bent.

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