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Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

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Old
11-29-2012, 11:53 AM
  #76
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
You say he was injured but yet he missed no games becouse of it, if you dont mean that was the case in 1992-93. I think someone has to answer these questions if that injury really affected him. I mean where have people gotten this from if not from Gretzky himself? Simply from his stats falling off after it when he was already in a steady decline? League average PPG was also falling and what about all those examples of offensive players that obviously could'nt handle the new league?
"I SAY he was injured" and "he didn't miss any games"?
The hit knocked him out of the Canada Cup, causing him to miss the final game!

How about some articles then... http://articles.nydailynews.com/1998...suter-olympics
"Which is exactly what the Chicago defenseman said he was doing in that game Feb. 1 when he smashed Kariya's face with a two-fisted swing of his stick after the Anaheim forward had scored a goal against Suter's Blackhawks. He was just playing. Ditto for the World Cup game in Canada a few years ago when Suter nailed Wayne Gretzky into the boards with such force that the building seemed to shake. Gretzky says he still has back problems from that hit."

or... http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...7563/index.htm
"And though he had complained of rib pain after last season's playoffs(91/92), the cause went undiagnosed. Not until preseason camp, to which he reported in peak condition, did Gretzky experience the excruciating chest pain. Actually, he had no pain through three days of skating. Then he returned home to be with his wife, Janet Jones, as the birth of their third child neared. At home, in the middle of the night, the pain struck, forcing him to the hospital for a week. It was an alarming event all around. "We visited him in the hospital," recalls Granato, "and everyone became as scared as he was."

Doctors knew of no other athlete who had recovered from a herniated thoracic disk to play again. "We have no timetable for this program and will not speculate on a date for his return," said Dr. Robert Watkins, an orthopedic consultant."


He played through the pain for the entire following season and playoffs. The next season he got bumped the wrong way in a pre-season game and that was it, the straw that broke the camels back, literally.
Once finally diagnosed in '92, there were real concerns that he may not return. It was a sad time.

40 second mark


Please stop trying to downplay it, it happened, it was a big deal and everyone watching at the time knew it.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-29-2012 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Removed flaming comments (and if you edit this again to remove this note, there will be an infraction.) OK!
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Old
11-29-2012, 11:55 AM
  #77
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Please see the recent post on the stickied thread, all. Thanks.

If you discuss other posters, and not content, that's your hint (and your warning).

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11-29-2012, 12:26 PM
  #78
Fred Taylor
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1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23. Mike Bossy
24. Dickie Moore
25. Steve Yzerman
26. Brad Park
27. Larry Robinson
28. Bernard Geoffrion
29. Norm Ullman
30. Alex Delvecchio
31. Joe Sakic
32. Bobby Clarke
33. Bob Gainey
34. Scott Niedermayer
35. Elmer Lach
36. Patrick Roy
37. Gilbert Perreault
38. Jacques Lemaire
39. Guy Lapointe
40. Phil Esposito
41. Ted Lindsay
42. Red Kelly
43. Syl Apps
44. Milt Schmidt
45. Johnny Bucyk
46. Marcel Dionne
47. Yvan Cournoyer
48. Martin Brodeur
49. Scott Stevens
50. Cam Neely

I didn't even bother to go through the rest of this list, but the ones in bold have me absolutely puzzled... there's really no justification for having Richard above Lemieux let alone Gretzky. Crosby ahead of Bourque? Roy way down at 36? Cam Neely in the top 50?! Dave Keon at 12!?!

I respect the man, but this is one of the worst lists I've personally ever seen.

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Old
11-29-2012, 12:39 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
I didn't even bother to go through the rest of this list, but the ones in bold have me absolutely puzzled... there's really no justification for having Richard above Lemieux let alone Gretzky. Crosby ahead of Bourque? Roy way down at 36? Cam Neely in the top 50?! Dave Keon at 12!?!

I respect the man, but this is one of the worst lists I've personally ever seen.


anyone who thinks Gretzky is 5, and Sidney Crosby, someone who has played 5 full seasons, is #15 all time....is insane. sorry Scotty, you are a great coach with some cups blah blah blah, but you got this waaaaaay wrong

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Old
11-29-2012, 12:42 PM
  #80
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i just realized Marcel Dionne is at 46.....waaaay behind Guy Lafleur, who is #11.....i would be ashamed to put this list out

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11-29-2012, 01:03 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23. Mike Bossy
24. Dickie Moore
25. Steve Yzerman
26. Brad Park
27. Larry Robinson
28. Bernard Geoffrion
29. Norm Ullman
30. Alex Delvecchio
31. Joe Sakic
32. Bobby Clarke
33. Bob Gainey
34. Scott Niedermayer
35. Elmer Lach
36. Patrick Roy
37. Gilbert Perreault
38. Jacques Lemaire
39. Guy Lapointe
40. Phil Esposito
41. Ted Lindsay
42. Red Kelly
43. Syl Apps
44. Milt Schmidt
45. Johnny Bucyk
46. Marcel Dionne
47. Yvan Cournoyer
48. Martin Brodeur
49. Scott Stevens
50. Cam Neely

I didn't even bother to go through the rest of this list, but the ones in bold have me absolutely puzzled... there's really no justification for having Richard above Lemieux let alone Gretzky. Crosby ahead of Bourque? Roy way down at 36? Cam Neely in the top 50?! Dave Keon at 12!?!

I respect the man, but this is one of the worst lists I've personally ever seen.
I'd say tou could argue Richard over Lemieux based on effort, work ethic and some of his intagibles. Same thing with Roy, great goalie but a ****** attitude.

As I wrote before, this is most likely a list of Bowmans favorite canandians (ranked according to how much he liked them) and not an actual ranking of canadian players based on skill/records etc..

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Old
11-29-2012, 01:19 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
If Bowman was a Flames coach throughout the 80s, and a Leafs coach in the 90s, you might well see different ratings here.
If Bowman was a flames coach and leafs coach, how effective would Gretzky be against him? As we all know, Gretzky played during an era where coaching was pretty terrible in my opinion.

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11-29-2012, 01:28 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I'd say tou could argue Richard over Lemieux based on effort, work ethic and some of his intagibles. Same thing with Roy, great goalie but a ****** attitude.
If he was knocking Roy for his attitude, then wouldn't he do the same to Richard?

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11-29-2012, 01:49 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
If he was knocking Roy for his attitude, then wouldn't he do the same to Richard?
Roy also left the Canadiens to AVs. That cant be a positive, right?

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11-29-2012, 01:56 PM
  #85
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I'll start by saying that Bowman is 100 to 1000 times the coach or scout that any of us here are. But that doesn't mean he's spent much time thinking about how to compare players between eras. There are several posters on this board who compare players between eras as something of a kind of sick hobby, and we've gotten quite good at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
A couple of other things that stick out:

- Only 4 players (Shore, Morenz, Apps, Schmidt) that precede the Richard-era Canadiens. There's no Cyclone Taylor, no Newsy Lalonde, no Joe Malone, no Sprague Cleghorn, no Dit Clapper, no King Clancy. But he found a spot for Drew Doughty...
Pretty clearly that he (like most people but unlike a few on this board) didn't spend many hours pouring over the careers of players who played before he was born. Bowman was born in 1933, so Apps and Schmidt would have been legends when he was a young child. Meaning he would still have firsthand memories of what other people thought of them if nothing else.

That leaves Morenz (Bowman was 4 when he died) and Shore (Bowman was 7 when he retired) who Bowman probably doesn't have much of a memory of. And those are the 2 early guys who EVERYONE knows.

Quote:
- Red Berenson. Not only is he questionable to be on the list at all, but he's ahead of shoo-in Hall of Famers like Al MacInnis, Tony Esposito and Brendan Shanahan. Presumably this was a case of the coaching fraternity at work.
He was also the best forward on the expansion Blues that were coached by... Scottie Bowman!

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Old
11-29-2012, 02:25 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He was also the best forward on the expansion Blues that were coached by... Scottie Bowman!
Man, I missed the low hanging fruit there.

We could probably turn this list into a game of Six Degrees of Scotty Bowman...

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11-29-2012, 02:29 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Man, I missed the low hanging fruit there.

We could probably turn this list into a game of Six Degrees of Scotty Bowman...
I think Two Degrees would do for 90% of the list.

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Old
11-29-2012, 03:22 PM
  #88
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This list appears to be a "players I would want most on my team", with all the personal opinions and biases that comes with, rather than a straight-up "who's the best" list.

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11-29-2012, 03:25 PM
  #89
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Hahaha. Crazy old man

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11-29-2012, 04:58 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Honestly, having Gretzky at 5 is a lot more defensible than having Wendel Clark anywhere on the list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
Agreed, he's barely a top 400 player. I'd take Vic Hadfield over him.
The Nordiques traded Sundin for Clark (to put in mind how he was valued). A healthy Clark was a 1st or 2nd line player on any team. Scoring aside, Clark was always dangerous. Don't make me post "the video."

I think anything after #20 is almost irrelevant in terms of order... you'd just start listing names in the order they come to mind. If I were Bowman I certainly wouldn't spend time dithering over whether someone should be ranked #58 or #73. Kind of surprised Middleton isn't on his list though.

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11-29-2012, 05:03 PM
  #91
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I don't want to be a bother but my only serious issue with Bowman's list is why Serge Savard is number 20 but Robinson is only 27.He coached both for nearly a decade.Potvin and Park are also ahead of robinson.So where is the bias?

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11-29-2012, 05:26 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
A couple of other things that stick out:

- Only 4 players (Shore, Morenz, Apps, Schmidt) that precede the Richard-era Canadiens. There's no Cyclone Taylor, no Newsy Lalonde, no Joe Malone, no Sprague Cleghorn, no Dit Clapper, no King Clancy. But he found a spot for Drew Doughty...

- Red Berenson. Not only is he questionable to be on the list at all, but he's ahead of shoo-in Hall of Famers like Al MacInnis, Tony Esposito and Brendan Shanahan. Presumably this was a case of the coaching fraternity at work.
Comparing Bowman's list to the other 9 in the magazine, his list is remarkable for it's high representation of pre-Richard players. He had Shore and Morenz in the top 10. No other list had any pre-Richard players in the top 20.

From the magazine's methodology note:

Of course, the Bowmans,Fishers, Farbers and Fourniers, to name a few, had to classify some of the hockey players that thy had seen play for just a little while or not at all. This is normal, because the National Hockey League started play back in 1917-18, which is more than 94 years ago!

Not one man on our expert team is that old...which explains the reason why we find only a few players from the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s in our top 100. Some of our experts, to quote Red Fisher, even refused to classify players that they had never seen play. Some had the guts to do it by relying on the player's legend or by reading about that player, even screening old footage of them.


Morenz made their overall top 100 list at 66, Shore at 69, and Broda at 98. No other pre-Richard player made the list. The only ones to receive votes were Morenz, Shore, Broda, Schmidt, Blake, Apps, Hainsworth, Denneny, Clancy,Durnan, Benedict, Charlie Conacher, Vezina, in that order.


Last edited by overpass: 11-29-2012 at 05:37 PM.
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Old
11-29-2012, 05:32 PM
  #93
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So needless to say this board knows more about pre-World War 2 players than any of the experts who submitted their lists to that magazine. Not surprising; historical research is not part of Scottie Bowman's job description.

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11-29-2012, 05:48 PM
  #94
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Pretty sure Mr. Bowman did not consult Hockey-Reference.com.

Looks like a coach's list with a little memory loss, maybe while having a couple with Harry Sinden.

As someone who's Top 4 has been Orr, Howe, Mario & Gretzky, I like his top 5.

Messier at 14 and Esposito at 40 makes me think my dislike of Messier and admiration for Espo my have clouded my voting on the Mess-Espo poll.

Seeing Paul Coffey only one spot ahead of Ron Francis (who's ahead of Gilmour) makes me smile.

My crusade to prove Serge Savard no better than Jacques Laperriere takes a big hit.

I have no problem with Lafleur or Crosby being that highly rated.

Jacques Lemaire ahead of Brodeur and Stevens probably says as much about his coaching as his playing.

Really can't figure out Kelly at 42 and Trottier at 62.

Seems to like goal scorers over playmakers. I like that.

Seems to have disdain for goalies. I don't know enough about them to disdain them, except in rare instances.

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11-29-2012, 05:52 PM
  #95
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But you got to say its a lot of fun to argue who's better and the publishers of the magazine are happy with the controversy during holiday season probaly going to sell a lot of magazines

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11-29-2012, 06:04 PM
  #96
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Defensemen (through top 50):

1. Orr (1)
2. Harvey (6)
3. Shore (7)
4. Bourque (16)
5. Savard (20)
6. Potvin (21)
7. Park (26)
8. Robinson (27)
9. Niedermayer(34)
10. Lapointe (39)
11. Kelly (42)
12. Stevens (49)

If Scotty confused Savard with Lidstrom, that top 8 is pretty close to our Dmen list.

Goalies (through Top 50):

1. Plante (17)
2. Sawchuk (19)
3. Hall (22)
4. Roy (36)
5. Brodeur (48)

If Scotty thinks Hasek is one of the top 6 goalies, then he has the same top 6 as our list.

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Old
11-29-2012, 06:56 PM
  #97
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Quote:
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I have no problem with Lafleur or Crosby being that highly rated.
really...you think someone who has played parts of 7 seasons, won ONE scoring title, is the 15th best player in the entire HISTORY of Canadian hockey? if Sid is 15, then Stamkos should be 16, followed by Taylor Hall in the 20's.....

If Lafleur is 11, then Marcel Dionne should be 10. take the Habs jersey off Lafleur, put him in a Sabres sweater his whole career...is he still 10? Dionne has a better PPG and career stats than Guy, and didn't get to play with hall of famers every night.

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11-29-2012, 07:06 PM
  #98
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Utterly bizarre list.

Some of the stuff (Serge Savard rating for ie.) would be really interesting if it wasn't totally undermined by the completely rubbish ratings of guys like Trottier, Berenson, and Clarke.

Ultimately, one of the things I found most fascinating here was the rating of Ciccarelli. We've heard reports that the Ciccarelli induction came as a result of a passionate advocation from Bowman, and yet here Bowman rates Ciccarelli as a worse player than Wendal Clarke. Strange.

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11-29-2012, 07:10 PM
  #99
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He could be looking at the game as a whole. Who can you send out there to score, keep the puck out, hit, fight, block a shot, etc.

I'd like to know how he was able to rate Morenz. Sure, Bowman has been around for a while, but Morenz died 80 years ago...

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11-29-2012, 07:12 PM
  #100
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Not a bad list at all. Some are quite odd, but I can see him well explaining his point. Maybe Toews over Pronger is one I'd find hard to justify

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