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Van-Tor then Van-Det

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11-29-2012, 05:51 PM
  #1
Vankiller Whale
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Van-Tor then Van-Det

To Toronto: Schneider, Schroeder
To Vancouver: Gardiner, 1st

To Detroit: Edler
To Vancouver: Filppula, Helm

Toronto gets a goalie and potential top-6C, Detroit gets a beastly defensman, and Vancouver gets a potential beastly defenseman, an established 3C, and a solid top-6 winger(who can play C)

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11-29-2012, 05:54 PM
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Schneider + Edler > Gardiner, Helm, Fillpula, 1st. It's not even close.

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11-29-2012, 05:56 PM
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Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Schneider + Edler > Gardiner, Helm, Fillpula, 1st. It's not even close.
I have to disagree, then.

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11-29-2012, 06:00 PM
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Filppula doesn't have much value if not at all . He's ufa after the lockout.

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11-29-2012, 06:01 PM
  #5
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by Tuomaz View Post
Filppula doesn't have much value if not at all . He's ufa after the lockout.
So's Edler.

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11-29-2012, 06:07 PM
  #6
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I can't see Detroit fans wanting to give up Helm....probably not even straight up for a UFA like Edler.

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11-29-2012, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So's Edler.
Which is why I have trouble seeing Helm as the +. That is a pretty big plus especially with Filppula coming off a career year. I can see a prospect even a pretty good one or one of the other bottom six forwards, but not Helm that is too steep in my opinion.

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11-29-2012, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
To Toronto: Schneider, Schroeder
To Vancouver: Gardiner, 1st

To Detroit: Edler
To Vancouver: Filppula, Helm

Toronto gets a goalie and potential top-6C, Detroit gets a beastly defensman, and Vancouver gets a potential beastly defenseman, an established 3C, and a solid top-6 winger(who can play C)
Yeah I'm not happy about the Schneider to Toronto trade, and Detroit seems to be missing a little value. Toronto adds Mac/Kulemin (and we add our second), Franson or a prospect and I could start to get into, but really...If Toronto won't shell out anything reasonable for Luongo, them shelling out more for Schneider seems unlikely. I think Schneider could return a better package from another team as well.

I'd want a little more from Edler's return too, but I like Filppula and I like Helm, so I'm not too upset at that return. I'd rather have Filppula and Franzen as the base, and maybe a small extra in the form of a pick or prospect (not topshelf, naturally).

Edler and Schneider collect a quantity vs. quality deal, but we plug every hole on our roster and have a spare top nine player in Raymond when Kesler gets back. It's not a a bad concept, but the devil is in the details.

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11-29-2012, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Which is why I have trouble seeing Helm as the +. That is a pretty big plus especially with Filppula coming off a career year. I can see a prospect even a pretty good one or one of the other bottom six forwards, but not Helm that is too steep in my opinion.
The amount of money your team has to spend & the fact that you've got a big hole on D makes me think getting him signed wouldn't be hard at all.

I wouldn't do this though.

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11-29-2012, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Which is why I have trouble seeing Helm as the +. That is a pretty big plus especially with Filppula coming off a career year. I can see a prospect even a pretty good one or one of the other bottom six forwards, but not Helm that is too steep in my opinion.
Fair enough, what about Franzen then? I know the common thought is his contracts a detriment, but as someone that values Luongo at nearly full pull, I can't say it's a turn off for me.

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11-29-2012, 06:12 PM
  #11
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No to both. Especially the first one.

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11-29-2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
I can't see Detroit fans wanting to give up Helm....probably not even straight up for a UFA like Edler.
straight up you would think about it, even with Helm's new four year deal. I mean lets be honest I love Helm but that isn't exactly fair value. I just don't think they are throwing him on top of Filppula.

Helm is important to the Wings and he holds a lot of value not just to Detroit fans but most importantly look how management talks about him.

The problem with Helm straight up (Vancouver wouldn't do it anyway) also is it is probably unrealistic to sign Edler, Howard and Filppula. Of course some Wings fans hope they figure out how to do this next off-season but I have questions about how realistic that is anyway.

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11-29-2012, 06:13 PM
  #13
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Haha no.. at most Gardiner for Schneider straight across, but you keep Schroeder your potential top 6er and we will keep a 1st.

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11-29-2012, 06:14 PM
  #14
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No chance we gamble on Schneider developing into a #1 here in TO. I'd rather trade Gardiner for Luongo, than have Schneider pull a Raycroft and the nucks getting Gards and a top five pick.

Schneider is a great goalie and all, but if I've learned anything from the past, it's that leafs should stay clear of trading for young potential number one goalies, and instead trade/sign veteran netminders.

Kinda curious why Toronto needs to add a 1st onto Gardiner though... Have I missed something that Schneider has achieved? It seems that his value has sky rocketed ever since that LA playoff series last year...

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11-29-2012, 06:14 PM
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Detroit laughs and hangs up. No way.

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Old
11-29-2012, 06:18 PM
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Detroit laughs and hangs up. No way.
They like Edler a lot and Ken is a pretty serious guy I don't know that they laugh while the phone is still on with the Canucks. But they do decline.

I do think they would consider something around Franzen for Edler. Lets be clear Detroit needs to make a move or two. It is still hard to figure out who that is. Filppula was offered for Nash and Yandle. So it wouldn't surprise me to see his name but likewise you can look at some of the guys they protected in those offers, Helm and Smith for instance are not in play. It does give you a good idea of what they are thinking.

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11-29-2012, 06:19 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hennig View Post
No chance we gamble on Schneider developing into a #1 here in TO. I'd rather trade Gardiner for Luongo, than have Schneider pull a Raycroft and the nucks getting Gards and a top five pick.

Schneider is a great goalie and all, but if I've learned anything from the past, it's that leafs should stay clear of trading for young potential number one goalies, and instead trade/sign veteran netminders.

Kinda curious why Toronto needs to add a 1st onto Gardiner though... Have I missed something that Schneider has achieved? It seems that his value has sky rocketed ever since that LA playoff series last year...
I wouldn't say his value has soared, but with all the Luongo bashing, 99% of which can't be converted over to Schneider, we see him as our "oh yeah, well how about the polar opposite of Luongo's (contract, age, playing style, etc)" and I guess a lot of fans view him as being more valuable due to his age and potential.

I agree with you about Luongo probably a better bet given the Leafs history with trading for young goaltenders, and if you'd rather move Gardiner for Luongo swell, I know you're not going to propose that, but I'd rather move Luongo to Toronto because I don't think they will move good enough assets for either, and I think Schneider being homegrown talent means more to the Canucks.

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11-29-2012, 06:20 PM
  #18
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Which is why I have trouble seeing Helm as the +. That is a pretty big plus especially with Filppula coming off a career year. I can see a prospect even a pretty good one or one of the other bottom six forwards, but not Helm that is too steep in my opinion.
Edler is still significantly better than Filppula, though. I think both teams would have to be confident in their ability to re-sign the other player. We could toss a cond. 1st if Edler walks to help mitigate the risk, but I doubt it would be neccessary.

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11-29-2012, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Edler is still significantly better than Filppula, though. I think both teams would have to be confident in their ability to re-sign the other player. We could toss a cond. 1st if Edler walks to help mitigate the risk, but I doubt it would be neccessary.
See I disagree. I am not saying Detroit doesn't add a prospect I even said as much or a different bottom six forward player. The fact Detroit really likes Edler and always has, for Andersson he is the one that got away makes this interesting. But just because Filppula has been floated a couple of times in star trades this year doesn't mean the Wings don't value him. They have talked him up for years and in his first year in the top 6 he delivered 66 points. They believe that number after years of talking about his talent along with Selanne about what a star he can be. Edler fits a bigger need but keep in mind Detroit probably pictures Zetteberg back out on the wing in 3 or 4 years with Filppula and Jarnkrok as the one two punch down the middle.

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11-29-2012, 06:26 PM
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Detroit wouldn't move a limited, bottom 6 centre for a 26 year old all-star defensemen... you've all lost your mind. If the Canucks put Edler on the open market, even with his contract situation, they could do a hell of a lot better than that.

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11-29-2012, 06:31 PM
  #21
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Detroit wouldn't move a limited, bottom 6 centre for a 26 year old all-star defensemen... you've all lost your mind.
No the management wouldn't move a guy that had a breakout in his first season in the top six with talent they have talked about for years and a guy the management calls the best third line center in hockey. Now you can argue they are wrong, but it is important to remember what the actual team puts out there about players. Detroit has very high evaluations on these two players. It also significantly damages a team that likes to hoard natural centers in that department. It would be a huge departure from how they have done business for the last 20 years as an organization.

Another interesting point is Edler is a left handed D-man, Detroit really wants a right handed guy. I know they like Edler but both he and Kronwall play the same side.

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11-29-2012, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by scurr View Post
schneider + edler > gardiner, helm, fillpula, 1st. It's not even close.
lol.........

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11-29-2012, 06:37 PM
  #23
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
No the management wouldn't move a guy that had a breakout in his first season in the top six with talent they have talked about for years and a guy the management calls the best third line center in hockey. Now you can argue they are wrong, but it is important to remember what the actual team puts out there about players. Detroit has very high evaluations on these two players. It also significantly damages a team that likes to hoard natural centers in that department. It would be a huge departure from how they have done business for the last 20 years as an organization.
I'm not saying that Detroit should jump all over this, I believe the value to be fair for both sides. I think that the loss of Lidstrom also marks a huge departure from how Detroit has done business the last 20 years, and having gone hard after Suter(also a LD) and failing, they may have to make hard decisions to raise the calibre of their D-corps.

Especially given the amount of forward prospects Detroit has at the moment.


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11-29-2012, 06:40 PM
  #24
Scurr
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
No the management wouldn't move a guy that had a breakout in his first season in the top six with talent they have talked about for years and a guy the management calls the best third line center in hockey. Now you can argue they are wrong, but it is important to remember what the actual team puts out there about players. Detroit has very high evaluations on these two players. It also significantly damages a team that likes to hoard natural centers in that department. It would be a huge departure from how they have done business for the last 20 years as an organization.

Another interesting point is Edler is a left handed D-man, Detroit really wants a right handed guy. I know they like Edler but both he and Kronwall play the same side.
Detroit did not get to where they are by valuing bottom 6 players more than top end defensemen. In fact, I think it's safe to say Detroit knows the value of having great defensemen more than most other franchises.

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lol.........
Laugh all you want. The only really attractive piece in that is Gardiner, and he wants to be Edler when he grows up.

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11-29-2012, 06:48 PM
  #25
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Laugh all you want. The only really attractive piece in that is Gardiner, and he wants to be Edler when he grows up.
Curious how are Filppula and Helm not attractive pieces?

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