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How about them Caps

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Old
11-28-2012, 04:11 PM
  #51
Vladiator16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Are you going to deny that Ovy is a defensive zone floater?
No, defense isn't his strong suit, just as offense isn't a strong suit for a lot of top notch defense men.
...but what i strongly disagree with in your statement is that he never blocked a shot... he has done it numerous times, i've seen him save goalies bacon from eminent goals, but to know that you would actually have to watch Caps play.

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11-28-2012, 04:43 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Vladiator16 View Post
No, defense isn't his strong suit, just as offense isn't a strong suit for a lot of top notch defense men.
...but what i strongly disagree with in your statement is that he never blocked a shot... he has done it numerous times, i've seen him save goalies bacon from eminent goals, but to know that you would actually have to watch Caps play.
I've watched the caps a lot in the playoffs and I've never seen him go out of his way to block a shot. As the captain you'd think that would be just the time to do it.

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11-29-2012, 04:20 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
I've watched the caps a lot in the playoffs and I've never seen him go out of his way to block a shot. As the captain you'd think that would be just the time to do it.
Apparenty you didn't watch last spring.

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11-29-2012, 05:05 AM
  #54
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I have to agree with those who believe the system change was wrong. IMO there was no need to do that. Things happen, and sometimes there are just bad matchups in the playoffs. That is not to say that they have no things to work on, but for me that team was built to go all out, run and gun.
In 2009/10 they just destroyed the league, they should have sticked by that, which is easy to say in hindsight, cause the "defensive" caps didn't work out either - but bach then at least the opponents with a two or three goal lead had to fear a comeback. And if you ask me, wether I would like a 2nd round exit with a regular season like 2009/10 or 2011/12, I know what I take.

What else do they need? A healthy Backstrom, a healthy Green, oh, and most important: OV being OV again. I think it all comes down to this. Look what he has done to hockey in Washington and to this team. If he is back to form and takes the responsibility, I think others will follow.

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Old
11-29-2012, 09:30 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Apparenty you didn't watch last spring.
When he couldn't even go PPG? So he can't block shots and score points? The guy lacks drive. Exactly what you don't want from a captain.

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11-29-2012, 09:46 AM
  #56
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The problem with the "leadership argument" is that it is circular.
You are a bad leader until you win, then all of a sudden you are a good leader. People then use you as an example of a good leader, even though you probably havent changed all that much.

Stevie Y was seen as a "bad leader" who couldnt lead detroit to the cup after a series of first round exits. Now he is exalted as a great leader.

Chara was a top pairing defenseman on ottawa, and they were the sharks before the sharks were the sharks, now he is a great "leader", when the year before he captained a team to one of the worst choke jobs in history.

People will say they cant win with Ovy, until they do.... Then the next team will be lead by the star who cant win, and Ovy will be held up as a "warrior who sacrifices the body and sets the tone with his hits".....

Heck wayne gretzky won only 4 cups in 20 years... lemieux only won 2.....


Hockey is a team sport that relies on luck, healthy bodies and a hot goalie in the playoffs more than anything else.

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Old
11-29-2012, 10:34 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
When he couldn't even go PPG? So he can't block shots and score points? The guy lacks drive. Exactly what you don't want from a captain.
There are not many guys in the world who could score ppg under Hunter at playoffs, against the likes of Chara, Seidenberg, Lundqvist and Thomas.

Well, Crosby could find a way.

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Old
11-29-2012, 11:06 AM
  #58
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I think its been said to ad nauseam but I don't know why they ever switched their system after the Montreal series. Completely the wrong move there, but hindsight is 20/20 right?

I think if they go back to a run and gun and let Ovie go then they could get back to where they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
The problem with the "leadership argument" is that it is circular.
You are a bad leader until you win, then all of a sudden you are a good leader. People then use you as an example of a good leader, even though you probably havent changed all that much.

Stevie Y was seen as a "bad leader" who couldnt lead detroit to the cup after a series of first round exits. Now he is exalted as a great leader.

Chara was a top pairing defenseman on ottawa, and they were the sharks before the sharks were the sharks, now he is a great "leader", when the year before he captained a team to one of the worst choke jobs in history.

People will say they cant win with Ovy, until they do.... Then the next team will be lead by the star who cant win, and Ovy will be held up as a "warrior who sacrifices the body and sets the tone with his hits".....

Heck wayne gretzky won only 4 cups in 20 years... lemieux only won 2.....


Hockey is a team sport that relies on luck, healthy bodies and a hot goalie in the playoffs more than anything else.
Shorks gonna shork. Hahah, but yes you hit the nail on the head.

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Old
11-29-2012, 11:12 AM
  #59
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IMO they need 2 things:

1. Ovechkin to stop dicking around. He's serious when he's on the ice, but they need him to be more serious off the ice too.

2. Consistency in the lineup. How many goaltenders have they had in the last few years? They just changed coaches. Their blueline is often in flux too. How is anyone supposed to develop chemistry and consistency if they keep getting new linemates and such? Get a core set of players and systems and stick with them for a while. It seems like they had new additions or subtractions from their core every few months and new lines every other period.

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Old
11-29-2012, 02:22 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Then your screwed. Ovy is the last guy who I want setting an on and off the ice example for my team. He needs to lose the C if the caps want to start seriously contending. What separates teams that win the cup (Boston, Chicago, LA) from teams who constantly go bust despite dominating the season (Vancouver, Washington, San Josť) is leadership.
Look at Boston, LA, and Chicago.

Boston:
09- top team in the East, dominated the regular season, upset by Canes in 2nd round

'10- blow 3-0 series lead to Philly.

'11- win Cup (3 game 7's)

'12- upset by 7th seed Caps (game 7 magic runs out)


Chicago:

09- lost in WCF
'10- won Cup
'11- lost in 1st round (not without a fight though)
'12- lost in 1st round

LA

'10 - lost in 1st round (6 games)
'11- lost in 1st round (6 games, including blowing a 4-0 lead in a game)
'12 - win Cup. Complete domination.




Sorry but I'd have to say you're completely wrong. If Chara is such a good captain, how come his team has been upset 3/4 years he's been on the Bruins? If Toews is such a great captain, why hasn't his team been able to make it past the 1st round the past 2 years? And if Brown is such a good captain, why didn't his team make it out of the 1st round the 2 years before they won the Cup?

It's not all based on the Captains. Rosters change, coaches change, and sometimes you get lucky/unlucky(I'm not saying in anyway that the 3 above are bad captains, just making a point).

You're using playoffs to make a point, even though the only other constant than the Caps not making it out of the 1st round, is that Ovechkin has shown up, while most of his teammates haven't. He's the heart and soul of the team, it was just much easier to see before Boudreau and Hunter suffocated the team.

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Old
11-29-2012, 02:28 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by caps4cup View Post
Look at Boston, LA, and Chicago.

Boston:
09- top team in the East, dominated the regular season, upset by Canes in 2nd round

'10- blow 3-0 series lead to Philly.

'11- win Cup (3 game 7's)

'12- upset by 7th seed Caps (game 7 magic runs out)


Chicago:

09- lost in WCF
'10- won Cup
'11- lost in 1st round (not without a fight though)
'12- lost in 1st round

LA

'10 - lost in 1st round (6 games)
'11- lost in 1st round (6 games, including blowing a 4-0 lead in a game)
'12 - win Cup. Complete domination.




Sorry but I'd have to say you're completely wrong. If Chara is such a good captain, how come his team has been upset 3/4 years he's been on the Bruins? If Toews is such a great captain, why hasn't his team been able to make it past the 1st round the past 2 years? And if Brown is such a good captain, why didn't his team make it out of the 1st round the 2 years before they won the Cup?
Because they didn't have the supporting cast to do it until the year they did. Ovechkin has. Your right it's not all about leadership but in my opinion a good leader will rally the team and get it done when the talent and makeup is there. Good leaders lead by example on the ice every shift and in the locker room I can't speak for what goes on in the room but can you honestly say Ovechkin leads by example? Even the Sharks woke up and stripped Marleau. It has to happen.

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Old
11-29-2012, 02:35 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Because they didn't have the supporting cast to do it until the year they did. Ovechkin has. Your right it's not all about leadership but in my opinion a good leader will rally the team and get it done when the talent and makeup is there. Good leaders lead by example on the ice every shift and in the locker room I can't speak for what goes on in the room but can you honestly say Ovechkin leads by example? Even the Sharks woke up and stripped Marleau. It has to happen.
The thing is, Ovechkin has been the only player that has consistently shown up every year in the playoffs. He's the only one that's set an on ice example. I have no idea about the off ice example it sets, but if he has lost weight like it looks like in the pics I guess that's a good start.

And I agree about the supporting cast. But go and look at the Caps rosters. None of them were as deep/good as the Cup winning teams you mentioned. The Caps probably have/had as much fire power as those teams, but they haven't had the supporting players to step up when they need to, or if the star players falter for a few games or a series.

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11-29-2012, 02:44 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by caps4cup View Post
The thing is, Ovechkin has been the only player that has consistently shown up every year in the playoffs. He's the only one that's set an on ice example. I have no idea about the off ice example it sets, but if he has lost weight like it looks like in the pics I guess that's a good start.
I disagree. Sure he's put up some points but in the playoffs you need that extra step 100% of the time and I've never seen that from him.

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11-29-2012, 03:52 PM
  #64
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The Caps just need to decide what kind of team they are and adjust the player makeup accordingly.

Personally, I think they could do just find as a run and gun team if they committed to being that. The problem is they got bounced one year and decided to give up on it. Run and gun is perfectly viable if you totally commit to it and build your team to it. The problem you run into in the NHL is that teams are wary of doing that anymore.

To do it, you have to have three scoring lines. They don't have to all be snipers, but you have to have that third line option for when the matchups on your top two lines aren't favourable. Your third line can't be a checking line that is supposed to shut down the opposition. Its job is to score as well.

The fourth line is the only one that is to 'grind'. And even them, you still want to have guys who can chip in about 10 a piece.

Your defence has to be set up to have a stay at home and offensive guy in each pairing. The stay at home guy has to be just that, because in this system, he will be the ONLY guy back a lot of times. He has to know how to play the 2 on 1s and 3 on 1s, because lord knows he is going to see it alot.

Your goalie has to like to see alot of shots. He has to thrive on the puck being shot at him. He will see alot of rubber.

Finally, the coach has to accept the system will lead to goals against. It has to be a coach who doesn't care if the team wins 6-4 or 8-5 or 2-1. Its the win that matters, not the score. This is the real problem. NHL coaches get the yips when their team is giving up that many goals. They get nervous. They would much prefer a 2-1 win where each goal is a hard fought victory than a 8-7 win where no lead feels safe.

Can it still work in todays NHL? Sure. I just don't think there is a coach who is willing to do it. It puts too much in the hands of the players and takes control away from the system (IE: the coach). Coaches are by nature control freaks, and relying on the individual skill of the guys on the ice rather than a tightly controlled system that can slot in players as needed makes them antsy.

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11-29-2012, 04:34 PM
  #65
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I disagree. Sure he's put up some points but in the playoffs you need that extra step 100% of the time and I've never seen that from him.
well than you clearly haven't watched him in any of the playoffs

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11-29-2012, 04:43 PM
  #66
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Oh look another thread where people who have never been in an NHL dressing room discuss the quality of leaders.

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11-29-2012, 04:50 PM
  #67
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Their top players need to hustle hard, be super active, AND get back to being elite offensively. Guys like Ovechkin and Green play casual too often in their own end, and their offensive impact has really floundered over the past couple years as well. They've had the talent to be a top cup contender for about 4-5 years now, but they still haven't made it past the 2nd round.

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11-29-2012, 05:10 PM
  #68
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well than you clearly haven't watched him in any of the playoffs
Your in denial. Watch Pronger play a playoff game then watch Ovy it's not the same.

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11-29-2012, 05:42 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
When he couldn't even go PPG? So he can't block shots and score points? The guy lacks drive. Exactly what you don't want from a captain.
Once again you are stating that he didn't block any shots, and obviously if you would watch you would know that he did... And leading his team with most points in PO's isn't what you would want from your captain?

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11-29-2012, 05:44 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Your in denial. Watch Pronger play a playoff game then watch Ovy it's not the same.
Pronger is a defense man he should block the shots, OV is a forward his job is to score...

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11-29-2012, 05:47 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Vladiator16 View Post
Pronger is a defense man he should block the shots, OV is a forward his job is to score...
Not my point. My point is guys like Pronger elevate their games to a new level in the post season. They have that extra step. Ovy does not.

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11-29-2012, 05:49 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Vladiator16 View Post
Once again you are stating that he didn't block any shots, and obviously if you would watch you would know that he did... And leading his team with most points in PO's isn't what you would want from your captain?
It's not about points it's about effort/passion/desire whatever you want to call it.

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11-29-2012, 05:53 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Not my point. My point is guys like Pronger elevate their games to a new level in the post season. They have that extra step. Ovy does not.
Who led Caps in PO's (point wise) every year since he got there? Not elevating the game? Did you watch MTL series?


Last edited by spiny norman: 11-29-2012 at 11:31 PM. Reason: not needed
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11-29-2012, 05:54 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Not my point. My point is guys like Pronger elevate their games to a new level in the post season. They have that extra step. Ovy does not.
as i said before you clearly haven't watched him in any of the playoffs

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11-29-2012, 05:55 PM
  #75
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It's not about points it's about effort/passion/desire whatever you want to call it.
And you saying he is lacking passion and desire? Thats what his whole game is based on!!!

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