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Old
11-29-2012, 06:51 PM
  #26
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Detroit did not get to where they are by valuing bottom 6 players more than top end defensemen. In fact, I think it's safe to say Detroit knows the value of having great defensemen more than most other franchises.



Laugh all you want. The only really attractive piece in that is Gardiner, and he wants to be Edler when he grows up.
Sure, but that doesn't mean Detroit would do this deal. Why not just wait and try to sign him as a UFA? Edler's value isn't THAT high because there's a chance any team could get him for free in a year.

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11-29-2012, 06:55 PM
  #27
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Yeah I'm not happy about the Schneider to Toronto trade, and Detroit seems to be missing a little value. Toronto adds Mac/Kulemin (and we add our second), Franson or a prospect and I could start to get into, but really...If Toronto won't shell out anything reasonable for Luongo, them shelling out more for Schneider seems unlikely. I think Schneider could return a better package from another team as well.

I'd want a little more from Edler's return too, but I like Filppula and I like Helm, so I'm not too upset at that return. I'd rather have Filppula and Franzen as the base, and maybe a small extra in the form of a pick or prospect (not topshelf, naturally).

Edler and Schneider collect a quantity vs. quality deal, but we plug every hole on our roster and have a spare top nine player in Raymond when Kesler gets back. It's not a a bad concept, but the devil is in the details.
Filppula AND Franzen?

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11-29-2012, 06:58 PM
  #28
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Last year Filppula's first season in the top 6 he finished in the top 50 in scoring.

Only went with guys that playedover 80 games like him.

2 less points than

Parise

1 less point than

Iginla and Seguin

Same as

Patrick Kane, Selanne, and Brad Richards

Sure his UFA status hurts but the same can be said of Edler. To pretend he has no value is a mistake and a pretty big one.

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11-29-2012, 07:09 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Curious how are Filppula and Helm not attractive pieces?
Filppula would be a decent option for a 3rd line centre. He's not really attractive because he doesn't have the kind of size we're trying to add right now. Helm doesn't fit anywhere in our lineup.

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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
Sure, but that doesn't mean Detroit would do this deal. Why not just wait and try to sign him as a UFA? Edler's value isn't THAT high because there's a chance any team could get him for free in a year.
Sure, why trade for anyone when you can just sign Suter in the summer? Oh wait...

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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Last year Filppula's first season in the top 6 he finished in the top 50 in scoring.

Sure his UFA status hurts but the same can be said of Edler. To pretend he has no value is a mistake and a pretty big one.
So if Fillpula can stay healthy he will continue to outscore better players...

Nobody said Fillpula had no value. Comparing his value to a 26 year old defensemen coming off a 50 point season is a different story, they aren't in the same league.

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11-29-2012, 07:14 PM
  #30
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I don't see Detroit or Vancouver doing that considering the best piece each side will receive is UFA next year.

Also, if the cap goes down as far as the league wants it to, Vancouver might not even be able to afford to resign Filppula.

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11-29-2012, 07:18 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Filppula would be a decent option for a 3rd line centre. He's not really attractive because he doesn't have the kind of size we're trying to add right now. Helm doesn't fit anywhere in our lineup.



Sure, why trade for anyone when you can just sign Suter in the summer? Oh wait...



So if Fillpula can stay healthy he will continue to outscore better players...

Nobody said Fillpula had no value. Comparing his value to a 26 year old defensemen coming off a 50 point season is a different story, they aren't in the same league.
Where did he compare them?

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11-29-2012, 07:26 PM
  #32
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Where did he compare them?
When he said he wouldn't move Fillpula for Edler.

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11-29-2012, 07:32 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
When he said he wouldn't move Fillpula for Edler.
No I said the plus isn't Helm unless you are responding to somebody else.

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11-29-2012, 07:39 PM
  #34
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No I said the plus isn't Helm unless you are responding to somebody else.
Same difference. You're arguing he's a great third line centre and then talking about how many points he put up in his first season in the top 6. Detroit would jump at landing Edler for a couple bottom 6 players, the Canucks would never do that.

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11-29-2012, 07:43 PM
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Same difference. You're arguing he's a great third line centre and then talking about how many points he put up in his first season in the top 6. Detroit would jump at landing Edler for a couple bottom 6 players, the Canucks would never do that.
Once again you are missing the fact I don't think Detroit jumps at this and Filppula isn't a bottom six player.

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11-29-2012, 07:44 PM
  #36
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Same difference. You're arguing he's a great third line centre and then talking about how many points he put up in his first season in the top 6. Detroit would jump at landing Edler for a couple bottom 6 players, the Canucks would never do that.
I think you are severely underrating how good Helm is...If you look at stats I could see how you come up with the opinion you apparently are, but he is more than that. Look at how much Yannik Hansen is worth to the Canucks. Helm is that and more for the Wings. Would you want to trade a 2nd line center, coming off a 66 point season, granted, also an impending UFA, and Hansen, for a top pairing D who is also an upcoming UFA and that you have a decent chance at signing in the offseason anyways? I think if you're honest with yourself the answer is no.

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11-29-2012, 07:50 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Filppula isn't a bottom six player.
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
a guy the management calls the best third line center in hockey.
?

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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
I think you are severely underrating how good Helm is...If you look at stats I could see how you come up with the opinion you apparently are, but he is more than that. Look at how much Yannik Hansen is worth to the Canucks. Helm is that and more for the Wings. Would you want to trade a 2nd line center, coming off a 66 point season, granted, also an impending UFA, and Hansen, for a top pairing D who is also an upcoming UFA and that you have a decent chance at signing in the offseason anyways? I think if you're honest with yourself the answer is no.
I have Hansen in my avatar but I would include him in a second in a deal for a player like Edler, no question. You'd be crazy not to. We have other players like Hansen and Fillpula on our team, we only have one 50 point, 26 year old, all-star defensemen just coming into his own. I really can't believe this is even a consideration.

Check around the league and see how many 30ish point and 60ish point centres there are, then go look at how many defensemen are putting up 50 points. Edler is also big, physical and just starting to really round out his game.

Fillpula just "broke out" at 28, Helm just cracked the league and he's as old as Edler.


Last edited by Scurr: 11-29-2012 at 07:57 PM.
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11-29-2012, 07:51 PM
  #38
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?
Wings management calls Helm the best third line center in hockey. I disagree but the point is he is a very good one and they like him a lot.

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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
No the management wouldn't move a guy that had a breakout in his first season in the top six with talent they have talked about for years and a guy the management calls the best third line center in hockey. Now you can argue they are wrong, but it is important to remember what the actual team puts out there about players. Detroit has very high evaluations on these two players. It also significantly damages a team that likes to hoard natural centers in that department. It would be a huge departure from how they have done business for the last 20 years as an organization.

Another interesting point is Edler is a left handed D-man, Detroit really wants a right handed guy. I know they like Edler but both he and Kronwall play the same side.
The and a guy would be Helm. Understand how you could think I was talking about one person, not the most clear post, but the next part about players was pointing out both of them.

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11-29-2012, 07:55 PM
  #39
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Wings management calls Helm the best third line center in hockey. I disagree but the point is he is a very good one and they like him a lot.



The and a guy would be Helm.
Yup, thought you were talking about the same player.

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11-29-2012, 07:56 PM
  #40
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I have Hansen in my avatar but I would include him in a second in a deal for a player like Edler, no question. You'd be crazy not to. We have players like Hansen and Fillpula on our team, we only have one 50 point, 26 year old, all-star defensemen just coming into his own. I really can't believe this is even a consideration.
You have lots of 66 point 2nd line centers? I see only one. And if you traded him, you'd have none, kind of like Detroit. One thing I've learned from you is that you severely underrate Filppula. Nor do I see how you have a lot of players like Hansen. If Edler was signed, absolutely, Detroit would be dumb not to do this. However, Vancouver does not exactly have a ton of cap. I could see them not re-signing Edler. If that's the case and he does go to FA, then Detroit, with a huge need for him, and quite a bit of cap, as well as him being a Swede, you'd have to think would be a front runner for his services. From a Detroit perspective, I would rather have Helm+Filppula+chance at Edler over possibly Edler. Even if he is traded to Detroit, there is no guarantee he would sign there.

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11-29-2012, 08:03 PM
  #41
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You have lots of 66 point 2nd line centers? I see only one. And if you traded him, you'd have none, kind of like Detroit. One thing I've learned from you is that you severely underrate Filppula. Nor do I see how you have a lot of players like Hansen. If Edler was signed, absolutely, Detroit would be dumb not to do this. However, Vancouver does not exactly have a ton of cap. I could see them not re-signing Edler. If that's the case and he does go to FA, then Detroit, with a huge need for him, and quite a bit of cap, as well as him being a Swede, you'd have to think would be a front runner for his services. From a Detroit perspective, I would rather have Helm+Filppula+chance at Edler over possibly Edler. Even if he is traded to Detroit, there is no guarantee he would sign there.
Edler is the type of player you make room for to re-sign. I have no concerns that Canucks management will let him walk.

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11-29-2012, 08:04 PM
  #42
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From a Detroit perspective, I would rather have Helm+Filppula+chance at Edler over possibly Edler. Even if he is traded to Detroit, there is no guarantee he would sign there.
From a Vancouver perspective, I would much rather have Edler + chance to sign Filppula, see how that works?

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You have lots of 66 point 2nd line centers?
When you have 5 NHL seasons with 40 points or less and one season with 66 points, you're not a 66 point centre, sorry.

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11-29-2012, 08:09 PM
  #43
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?



I have Hansen in my avatar but I would include him in a second in a deal for a player like Edler, no question. You'd be crazy not to. We have other players like Hansen and Fillpula on our team, we only have one 50 point, 26 year old, all-star defensemen just coming into his own. I really can't believe this is even a consideration.

Check around the league and see how many 30ish point and 60ish point centres there are, then go look at how many defensemen are putting up 50 points. Edler is also big, physical and just starting to really round out his game.

Fillpula just "broke out" at 28, Helm just cracked the league and he's as old as Edler.
Filppula played in the top six for the first time. He actually had a big year even as a third liner derailed by injury before that. They also both have cups but hey lets sell them short. Helm didn't just crack the league and that speaks to how the Wings bring people along. Saying Helm just cracked the league how long has Schnieder been around. I know goalies take longer, well so do most wings players and prospects that is how they bring people along. I just think you're pretty unfamiliar with what kind of players Filppula and Helm are. Filppula's talent has long been hinted at, he even outdueled Jordan Staal in the cup winning effort. That is really where those two series were decided in my opinion. In any event we pass.

Kronwall has a 50 point season and a contract, you offering Kesler and Hansen?

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11-29-2012, 08:10 PM
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From a Vancouver perspective, I would much rather have Edler + chance to sign Filppula, see how that works?
You have no chance at that, unless the NHLPA pulls a miracle victory.

By the way as I have said to Wings fans hard to see how Edler, Howard, and Filppula get pulled off either. Two of the three yes, but I don't see all three. It is easier to do this fantasy from a Detroit point of view though Vancouver is going to have cap problems two big moves would be surprising especially since they want something for Luongo so some of that cap space isn't going away.

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11-29-2012, 08:10 PM
  #45
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From a Vancouver perspective, I would much rather have Edler + chance to sign Filppula, see how that works?



When you have 5 NHL seasons with 40 points or less and one season with 66 points, you're not a 66 point centre, sorry.
Yet you called Edler a 50 point defensman, even though he has never hit 50 points??? Your bias is amazing. Filppla: hit 66 points once. Not a 60 point center. That's fine...I can see why you would say that. You want to see more than one season. Edler: never hit 50 points. 50 point defensman. Wait, what? Oh, and what are the chances of you signing Filppula and Edler. Close to none. Detroit as of right now has 9m in cap. They could easily re-sign Filppula and sign Edler. Vancouver will barely be able to squeeze Edler in. That's a pathetic counter argument.

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11-29-2012, 08:16 PM
  #46
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Good Call

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Haha no.. at most Gardiner for Schneider straight across, but you keep Schroeder your potential top 6er and we will keep a 1st.
Very reasonable.

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11-29-2012, 08:17 PM
  #47
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Comparing his value to a 26 year old defensemen coming off a 50 point season is a different story, they aren't in the same league.
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
then go look at how many defensemen are putting up 50 points.
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Yet you called Edler a 50 point defensman, even though he has never hit 50 points??? Your bias is amazing. Filppla: hit 66 points once. Not a 60 point center. That's fine...I can see why you would say that. You want to see more than one season. Edler: never hit 50 points. 50 point defensman. Wait, what? Oh, and what are the chances of you signing Filppula and Edler. Close to none. Detroit as of right now has 9m in cap. They could easily re-sign Filppula and sign Edler. Vancouver will barely be able to squeeze Edler in. That's a pathetic counter argument.
Where did I call Edler a 50 point defensemen? Next time I'll be more specific, 49points, my bad.

The Canucks cap situation in over a year can go a lot of different ways, you have no idea what it will look like.


Last edited by Scurr: 11-29-2012 at 08:22 PM.
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11-29-2012, 08:19 PM
  #48
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When you have 5 NHL seasons with 40 points or less and one season with 66 points, you're not a 66 point centre, sorry.
When you have only spent one season in the top 6 it is important to weight that season with a bigger measure. How do you look at Kesler's numbers.

Kesler - GP:561 G:153 A:184 P:337 PPGA:0.60 PIM:501 +/-:45
Filppula - GP:442 G:91 A:143 P:234 PPGA:0.53 PIM:152 +/-:47

Once again Kesler is better but the difference isn't as great as you would believe and he enjoys a 1st PP unit gig and Filppula anchors the 2nd unit.

But by consolidating the top 6 point roles where he will line up with Zetterberg and should continue to eclipse 60 and push near 70, he trends quite well with him. Probably hurts to look at and you can call it crazy but it is closer than you want it to be I am sure.

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11-29-2012, 08:19 PM
  #49
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Kronwall has a 50 point season and a contract, you offering Kesler and Hansen?
Kesler is closer to Zetterberg than Filppula.

I would trade Higgins and Hansen for Kronwall. Those 2 forwards compare quite well to the Detroit duo...

Heck, take David Booth and Hansen for Kronwall.

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11-29-2012, 08:20 PM
  #50
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Kronwall has a 50 point season and a contract, you offering Kesler and Hansen?
You're really comparing Kesler to Filppula?

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When you have only spent one season in the top 6 it is important to weight that season with a bigger measure. How do you look at Kesler's numbers.

Kesler - GP:561 G:153 A:184 P:337 PPGA:0.60 PIM:501 +/-:45
Filppula - GP:442 G:91 A:143 P:234 PPGA:0.53 PIM:152 +/-:47

Once again Kesler is better but the difference isn't as great as you would believe and he enjoys a 1st PP unit gig and Filppula anchors the 2nd unit.

But by consolidating the top 6 point roles where he will line up with Zetterberg and should continue to eclipse 60 and push near 70, he trends quite well with him. Probably hurts to look at and you can call it crazy but it is closer than you want it to be I am sure.
Yeah, it looks like you are.

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