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2012-13 CBA Discussion Thread *NHL/NHLPA Please do Something!!*

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Old
11-26-2012, 10:03 AM
  #751
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Originally Posted by Islanders1932 View Post
My deadline has passed, I'm boycotting all Isles games this year/next year. I may show up to the coliseum and sit outside during that first game back in a lawn chair with a sign that reads "Boycotting: Locking myself out since this league doesn't care about its fans"
I always find this "care about the fans argument" kinda funny. As a fan you are a consumer - that's it, nothing more or less. The NHL is an entertainment expense for the consumer, it just elects to spend it on the NHL.

Moreover, the NHL is a growing business. You as a fan aka consumer have already said you are a willing consumer. Dooubled down by the fact that revenues exploded after the last lockout with a lost season. You are money - that's it. The same reason the league can push on is the same reason the fans gripe about the game - it has a core passionate fan base that's in the upper income bracket. That's why corporations want in and stick around. It does not cater to the causal fans - its trying to do it, but it can leverage the core knowing the will come back - they already demonstrated they will.

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11-26-2012, 02:05 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by blitzkriegs View Post
I always find this "care about the fans argument" kinda funny. As a fan you are a consumer - that's it, nothing more or less. The NHL is an entertainment expense for the consumer, it just elects to spend it on the NHL.

Moreover, the NHL is a growing business. You as a fan aka consumer have already said you are a willing consumer. Dooubled down by the fact that revenues exploded after the last lockout with a lost season. You are money - that's it. The same reason the league can push on is the same reason the fans gripe about the game - it has a core passionate fan base that's in the upper income bracket. That's why corporations want in and stick around. It does not cater to the causal fans - its trying to do it, but it can leverage the core knowing the will come back - they already demonstrated they will.
that is 100% spot on. I always sad hockey is mainly hardcore fans. Unlike baseball football Etc those sports have hardcore fans but most of there fans are casual fans at best.
Same reason why George lucas did not care about the handful of hardcore fans who claim they will not buy his special edition movies etc. The money is from the much larger pool of casual fans rather then the rabid hardcore fan. This can be sad for any good.

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11-26-2012, 02:11 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by blitzkriegs View Post
I always find this "care about the fans argument" kinda funny. As a fan you are a consumer - that's it, nothing more or less. The NHL is an entertainment expense for the consumer, it just elects to spend it on the NHL.

Moreover, the NHL is a growing business. You as a fan aka consumer have already said you are a willing consumer. Dooubled down by the fact that revenues exploded after the last lockout with a lost season. You are money - that's it. The same reason the league can push on is the same reason the fans gripe about the game - it has a core passionate fan base that's in the upper income bracket. That's why corporations want in and stick around. It does not cater to the causal fans - its trying to do it, but it can leverage the core knowing the will come back - they already demonstrated they will.
Of course we'll all comeback. The NHL doesnt manufacture peanut butter or any product with which there is a direct substitute good. Hockey is only hockey and the fact that there is none doesn't increase my willingness to watch or spend on baseketball or football anymore or less than I previously have.

The NHL is a unique and distinct product and if im willing to spend X dollars/purchase for NHL-related expenses (Center Ice, jersey, tickets, etc), no other sport will receive that revenue, ill just pocket it. Think about it this way, who creates a yearly budget with "Entertainment expenses" and subcategorizes "NHL-related expenses"? We have many accountants here? 99% of people don't do that and even if they did, that doesn't mean that X budget gets shifted to Y. Thats why they know we'll all be back...because the holdout isn't creating basketball fans. Some fans may "holdout" longer than others, but in the end, only hockey is hockey.

I have, however, been to the strip club more since the lockout than I have in years past, so maybe that counts as something...

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Old
11-26-2012, 02:28 PM
  #754
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NHL and NHLPA have agreed to letting federal mediators sit in on their talks.. Hopefully this sparks something but you never know perhaps this growing threat of decertifying spooked the owners a tad?

Bob Mckenzie:

Quote:
NHL and NHLPA have agreed to allow U.S. federal mediators to get involved in the labor dispute. Deputy Director Scot L. Beckenbaugh, Director of Mediation Services John Sweeney, and Commissioner Guy Serota to serve as the mediators. Mediators work under umbrella of Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service. Let's see if some "outside" perspective makes a difference. Mediation is not binding. It's just an objective third party trying to help process get on track. Mediators were, IIRC, used in 2004-05.
Here's official announcement: http://www.fmcs.gov/internet/itemDet...9&itemID=23887

Still not getting my hopes up that last line from Bobby Mac is a downer but whatever if this is what it takes to eventually get a deal then it should have been done weeks ago.

And before anyone gets optimistic from Chris Johnston of Canadian Press:

Quote:
The NHL and NHLPA met with federal mediators on Feb. 13, 2005. Three days later the season was cancelled.


Last edited by Bunk Moreland: 11-26-2012 at 02:39 PM.
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Old
11-26-2012, 02:44 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by Bunk Moreland View Post
NHL and NHLPA have agreed to letting federal mediators sit in on their talks.. Hopefully this sparks something but you never know perhaps this growing threat of decertifying spooked the owners a tad?

Bob Mckenzie:



Here's official announcement: http://www.fmcs.gov/internet/itemDet...9&itemID=23887

Still not getting my hopes up that last line from Bobby Mac is a downer but whatever if this is what it takes to eventually get a deal then it should have been done weeks ago.

And before anyone gets optimistic from Chris Johnston of Canadian Press:
More - from http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/comme...=munson/110225

Talking about NFL lockout and previous experience of mediation teams with NHL - relevant bits below:

...

The process can work, but it also can fail. During the NHL lockout of 2004-2005 that resulted in the cancelation of the entire hockey season, there were three attempts at mediation. All ended in failure. The final attempt came on Feb. 13, 2005, at the request of Scot Beckenbaugh, then the acting FMCS director.

Although the hockey players union indicated for the first time its possible acceptance of a salary cap in Beckenbaugh's mediation session, the five-hour meeting produced no agreement. Three days later, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman announced the cancelation of the season.

It is perhaps worth a reminder that one of the NHL's management lawyers who led hockey's owners through that lockout seven years ago was Batterman, the same man now working with the NFL management negotiators.
...

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Old
11-26-2012, 06:26 PM
  #756
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http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/86...gree-mediation

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11-26-2012, 07:46 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by ferrisUML View Post
Of course we'll all comeback. The NHL doesnt manufacture peanut butter or any product with which there is a direct substitute good. Hockey is only hockey and the fact that there is none doesn't increase my willingness to watch or spend on baseketball or football anymore or less than I previously have.

The NHL is a unique and distinct product and if im willing to spend X dollars/purchase for NHL-related expenses (Center Ice, jersey, tickets, etc), no other sport will receive that revenue, ill just pocket it. Think about it this way, who creates a yearly budget with "Entertainment expenses" and subcategorizes "NHL-related expenses"? We have many accountants here? 99% of people don't do that and even if they did, that doesn't mean that X budget gets shifted to Y. Thats why they know we'll all be back...because the holdout isn't creating basketball fans. Some fans may "holdout" longer than others, but in the end, only hockey is hockey.

I have, however, been to the strip club more since the lockout than I have in years past, so maybe that counts as something...
Yeah, this has nothing to do with the fans. Nothing to do with how we are treated. We are just casualties in the greed war. We will all come back and root harder than ever because we missed it so much. It's truly the definition of unconditional love. When the police show up, we always say we tripped and fell. It will be the same next season...

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Old
11-27-2012, 06:54 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Yeah, this has nothing to do with the fans. Nothing to do with how we are treated. We are just casualties in the greed war. We will all come back and root harder than ever because we missed it so much. It's truly the definition of unconditional love. When the police show up, we always say we tripped and fell. It will be the same next season...
Joking, right?

Cheers,

Dan-o

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Old
11-29-2012, 04:30 PM
  #759
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410527

Quote:
Sources indicated that no progress was made and that no more meetings with mediators were planned.
Well, so much for mediation.

Let's face it guys. This season is nearly over. Games will be cancelled through January 1st very shortly. The league is determined to split the players. Forget about it.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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Old
11-29-2012, 04:52 PM
  #760
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Shocked that didn't work

Now there are reports out that Bettman wants the owners and players to meet without Fehr/Bettman.. But from what I'm reading it sounds like they won't allow all owners to attend it will only be a few and I'm guessing that it will be the likes of Jay Jacobs and his hardline posse.. Also they want to pick which players will show up haha yep that will work..

Next step is the hail mary aka decertifying which even after reading up on I really don't know how it will work really but this season is doomed owners want 100% victory no concessions. Sigh...

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11-29-2012, 05:19 PM
  #761
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If the season is cancelled, will they do the draft lottery right away? Wait, will there even be a draft!?

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11-29-2012, 05:47 PM
  #762
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If the season is cancelled, will they do the draft lottery right away? Wait, will there even be a draft!?
They won't do a draft lottery until a new CBA is signed

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Old
11-29-2012, 06:15 PM
  #763
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I haven't followed baseball since Fehr effed it up.

Now he's killed hockey.

Bring back the WHA.

F 'em all.

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11-29-2012, 06:47 PM
  #764
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I haven't followed baseball since Fehr effed it up.

Now he's killed hockey.

Bring back the WHA.

F 'em all.
Not a bad idea, in fact there was talk of a new WHA a few years back.

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Old
11-29-2012, 09:02 PM
  #765
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There's no way around this and I'm shocked they haven't cancelled the season yet. Because this is ridiculous and embarrassing for everyone involved.

Assuming Forbes' info is neutral and close to correct, and I believe it is, I think the players should really listen and understand that having 13 teams losing money (and a lot more that make meager profits) is simply not good for the league, the # jobs of NHL players, over the long term. It's extremely naive and short-sighted to look ONLY at "last summer" and suggest they are being SCREWED by having to take "less" - immediately. Compared to inflation, total salaries over the past 5-10-15 years, they are way way ahead - maybe TOO far ahead.

The fact the owners are willing to sacrifice yet another season should be proof enough that the economic model must be made right. It's in the players' best interest to get back on the ice.

If they still feel the owners are screwing them, then they should plan an alternative solution for the NEXT CBA. And in the near term, take what they can. There are few alternatives, such as a rival league (that they can start planning with some partners, maybe?), or the KHL, SEL, AHL, etc. I don't see any other way to establish any leverage.

Deregistration is simply a last resort threat that would lead only to chaos and make things even worse for most players. No rules around the draft, player movement, guaranteed contracts, ELCs - well, that simply cannot work for a league with such disparate revenues among the teams and would certainly lead to either (or likely both) a large discrepancy in talent distribution (like in MLB) based on the haves/have nots and lost jobs from franchises that cannot compete, hence, suffer from gate receipts without enough TV money to save the unprofitable franchises.

There are some smart people in these negotiations, I'm sure, but they are losing a lot of credibility with the media and fans and sponsors and with the competition for the entertainment dollar, poor economy - the longer this goes, the more long term damage.

stupid stupid.

Then again, I've had dozens of jobs, in a lot of different companies and at even the most senior level, there's a lot of ego and stupidity. It's naive to think the NHL would be any different.

These aren't the same people that cure disease or land a craft on another planet. They are lawyers who like arguing and get off on being right, winning. Enjoy.

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Old
11-29-2012, 09:09 PM
  #766
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At some point the players will realize they are going to lose and lose big and that their best offer was a month ago and they should have taken it.

Oh well, I'm getting more sleep with no hockey to watch

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Old
11-29-2012, 09:32 PM
  #767
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Owners & players now. LOL. If this actually works it begs the question why either pay Fehr or Bettman.

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11-29-2012, 09:55 PM
  #768
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Jesus Christ just cancel the season already. I'm so sick of them calling meetings and then finding out an hour later that they were "unsuccessful."

These *******s clearly have no intention of actually getting a deal done any time soon.

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11-29-2012, 11:07 PM
  #769
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Jesus Christ just cancel the season already. I'm so sick of them calling meetings and then finding out an hour later that they were "unsuccessful."

These *******s clearly have no intention of actually getting a deal done any time soon.
I'll repeat what I wrote weeks ago. If the players wanted to play this season, they should have never hired Fehr. Now that the NHL has lost momentum from last year, cancelled the WC, and is essentially generating minimal to no licensing income during the holiday season, there's NO incentive to really play without getting what THEY want.

It's well documented a significant portion of the teams lose money or barely make more than a third line player whining on twitter about Bettman. The owners want to reduce risk, make money annually, and increase the value of their investment via franchise valuation. The franchise values are pretty poor when compared to overall league revenues. One team is techincally valued at 1/3 league revenues? Bizarre. The teams operating income is way too high.

I give the players credit for holding the line, but their salaries have increased significantly on guaranteed contracts, where if managed correctly can give a lot of these guys a nice place in the salary universe, no matter how long or short their career is. Time to accept they are well compensated for a short window of their life, they need to maximize it, but the businesses would like to survive and grow beyond a players career.

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11-30-2012, 01:07 AM
  #770
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Jesus Christ just cancel the season already. I'm so sick of them calling meetings and then finding out an hour later that they were "unsuccessful."

These *******s clearly have no intention of actually getting a deal done any time soon.
Pretty much. They should allow themselves one more round of negotiations and if they fail then the season will be cancelled. Sick and itred of this cat and mouse game theyæve been playing for the last couple of months. Sort it out or cancel the season - it's that easy

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11-30-2012, 07:56 AM
  #771
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Assuming Forbes' info is neutral and close to correct, and I believe it is, I think the players should really listen and understand that having 13 teams losing money (and a lot more that make meager profits) is simply not good for the league, the # jobs of NHL players, over the long term. It's extremely naive and short-sighted to look ONLY at "last summer" and suggest they are being SCREWED by having to take "less" - immediately. Compared to inflation, total salaries over the past 5-10-15 years, they are way way ahead - maybe TOO far ahead.
Ah. So do you also believe that Fox News is "fair and balanced"? Or actually, news? We're talking about a publication that takes Dinesh D'Souza seriously. (No apologies to anyone who takes Dinesh D'Souza seriously. Dude's a joke.)

Still, it's interesting to note that what the Forbes article has recommended, the players have offered - 50% revenue to players. The rest (moving stupidly placed southern franchises like Carolina and Phoenix) is not in the hands of the players.

There's a reason why people in the media have been increasingly lampooning the owners: the obvious spot for reasonable agreement was reached quite a while ago. When you pretty much get a statement of the player's position from Forbes, you pretty much know the lay of the land.

The current fight is not over revenues. It's over shortening non-entry level contract lengths, extending team's rights over players over their entire reasonable prime (between 28 and 30), and extending entry-level contracts with a fixed structure. The NHL is currently not willing to make concessions on any of these points.

The owners are, essentially, trying to pit players like Hamrlik (at the end of his career) and role players, the guys these contractual and player movement issues do not effect, against top-6 forwards and top-4 dmen. The current offer to bypass the union head and go directly to the players is an obvious ploy. Similar maneuvers were leveled to get non-guaranteed contracts in the NFL (if there weren't non-guaranteed contracts, most of the guys who fill out the bottom of a roster may never get a shot).

When Bettman suggests going directly to the players around the union structure, he's said, in effect, "Decertify? Go ahead, make my day." He's threatening to treat the union as the non-exclusive bargaining partner even if they don't decertify. But he's saying it in such a way he thinks fans are too unsophisticated to understand.

BTW, your inflation argument is an exemplary non sequitur. Bravo! Bettman might be on to something.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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11-30-2012, 08:36 AM
  #772
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Ah. So do you also believe that Fox News is "fair and balanced"? Or actually, news? We're talking about a publication that takes Dinesh D'Souza seriously. (No apologies to anyone who takes Dinesh D'Souza seriously. Dude's a joke.)

Still, it's interesting to note that what the Forbes article has recommended, the players have offered - 50% revenue to players. The rest (moving stupidly placed southern franchises like Carolina and Phoenix) is not in the hands of the players.

There's a reason why people in the media have been increasingly lampooning the owners: the obvious spot for reasonable agreement was reached quite a while ago. When you pretty much get a statement of the player's position from Forbes, you pretty much know the lay of the land.

The current fight is not over revenues. It's over shortening non-entry level contract lengths, extending team's rights over players over their entire reasonable prime (between 28 and 30), and extending entry-level contracts with a fixed structure. The NHL is currently not willing to make concessions on any of these points.

The owners are, essentially, trying to pit players like Hamrlik (at the end of his career) and role players, the guys these contractual and player movement issues do not effect, against top-6 forwards and top-4 dmen. The current offer to bypass the union head and go directly to the players is an obvious ploy. Similar maneuvers were leveled to get non-guaranteed contracts in the NFL (if there weren't non-guaranteed contracts, most of the guys who fill out the bottom of a roster may never get a shot).

When Bettman suggests going directly to the players around the union structure, he's said, in effect, "Decertify? Go ahead, make my day." He's threatening to treat the union as the non-exclusive bargaining partner even if they don't decertify. But he's saying it in such a way he thinks fans are too unsophisticated to understand.

BTW, your inflation argument is an exemplary non sequitur. Bravo! Bettman might be on to something.

Cheers,

Dan-o
Excellent post Dan-o!

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11-30-2012, 09:01 AM
  #773
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
The current fight is not over revenues. It's over shortening non-entry level contract lengths, extending team's rights over players over their entire reasonable prime (between 28 and 30), and extending entry-level contracts with a fixed structure. The NHL is currently not willing to make concessions on any of these points.

The owners are, essentially, trying to pit players like Hamrlik (at the end of his career) and role players, the guys these contractual and player movement issues do not effect, against top-6 forwards and top-4 dmen. The current offer to bypass the union head and go directly to the players is an obvious ploy.
Leaving the editorializing out of the Forbes part, I do believe the franchise valuation is accurate and I also believe that most teams lose money or make very little. That's the MEAT OF IT, Fox News notwithstanding. An earlier article on Forbes indicated that 27 teams (outside the top three) lost $44Million it total.

The owners are attempting to limit inflationary pressures:
- Five-year maximum on player contracts
- Ten seasons in the NHL before a player can become an unrestricted free agent (currently they need seven seasons or to be 27 years old)
- Elimination of salary arbitration
- Five-year term for rookie contracts

There was a time when free agency at 31 was unheard of.

I've been on the players' side primarily because I believe Bettman and the owners are bullying the players, which doesn't feel right. But I do believe hockey's in trouble with so many teams losing money, that's not made up. Ownership issues and franchises for sale are pretty pervasive, many kept hush hush, but very real and not just the Arizona Coyotes.

I think the players need to see that having a healthy league, financially, is good for the players. Not solely the top 10 players on each team, but the rest of the players as well. Players at the end of their career will get screwed no matter what but the other, fringe-type NHLers that fill out the bottom of the rosters, they need to understand that a healthy league means guaranteed jobs, which is better than guaranteed contracts. And they need to trust that the owners will always find a way to spend money on players, as long as the league remains one with ONE winner every season.

Regardless of Bettman's ploy, I don't see what the players' leverage is at all. I didn't see it in the last CBA either and looking back, I'm shocked the players used to get 73% of revenues (before the last lockout I believe - heard it on Hockey Central if I recall correctly).

Bottom line, Bettman knows the players have no leverage and he knows the strength of the union, relative to the owners, is something they will eventually overcome (bully) - so, until then, we wait.

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11-30-2012, 09:32 AM
  #774
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I predicted from day one, that the 2012/2013 season will start in January 2013. I still believe that will be true, though the last 3 months, there have been false hopes that it would start earlier. I'm sticking with my prediction, I'm betting that the players will cave in, in the next 3 weeks, BUT, obviously if there isn't a January start (or earlier), I predict the season will be cancelled January 15th.

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11-30-2012, 10:06 AM
  #775
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Players have already lost over $500million in paychecks. Whoops. That's way more than they are fighting for. Looks like they are fighting the wrong battle.

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