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Team Canada 2014: Goalie #2

View Poll Results: #2
Roberto Luongo 69 40.59%
Cam Ward 81 47.65%
Marc-Andre Fleury 11 6.47%
Martin Brodeur 3 1.76%
Mike Smith 6 3.53%
James Reimer 0 0%
Corey Crawford 0 0%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-29-2012, 09:18 PM
  #126
RDRR
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I think it's hilarious that people think Luongo leached off a good defense. Watch a Canucks game. Seriously.

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11-29-2012, 09:21 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
1. So? Brodeur wasn't in his prime, I thought that mattered to you? Proof that this point you came up with is bunk.
2. That's how it goes? Tell that to Tim Thomas, Dwayne Roloson, Martin Brodeur (who had a renaissance this year after a few sub par years), etc. proof this point is bunk.
3. The Canucks gave up less than 200 goals BECAUSE of Luongo this isn't a point.
4. Yes I have. Have you addressed my counter argument? No you haven't.
5. I think Luongo and Schneider will split time or one will be traded and both will be full time starters. This point is bunk.
6. The stats prove you wrong. This point is bunk.

Can you come up with anything that's legitimate and not pure crap?
1. Not following anymore. Theodore wasn't in his prime in 2010, not even close.
2. ? Tim Thomas, pretty much the exception. Brodeur, Roloson????? Are you saying they should be there as well or ??? Honestly what are you trying to prove? They are not better than Ward.
3. No, the point is they have a very good defensive team, goalies aside. A real goalie, Schneider, puts up .935+ SAVE% in front of them
4. WC means very little. Bad teams with little structure are sent there by Hockey Canada. Very small sample sizes. I prefer Ward's NHL seasons and playoffs.
5. Good luck with that. Doubt that happens.
6. .921 Save% doesn't prove he's consistent. Not whatsoever. What were his stats in the playoffs? Why'd he get pulled? Consistent you think?

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11-29-2012, 09:21 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDRR View Post
I think it's hilarious that people think Luongo leached off a good defense. Watch a Canucks game. Seriously.
Yup. The ignorance is hilarious. Yet Cam Ward plays behind the best Canadian WHC team in years, and stinks up the joint, yet NO ONE addresses it.

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11-29-2012, 09:27 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Both Fleury and Ward have cups, Lu does not.
I hate this logic

Neither Fleury nor Ward stood on top of their heads to win their cups. Carolina squeaked out their cup win after their opponents lost their starting goalie in game1 of the cup finals. Both goalies played behind deep teams that were firing on all cylinders.

Also, if you wanna use team accomplishments to justify not picking Luongo, Luongo won the tournament we are making this team for...

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11-29-2012, 09:29 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
What were his stats in the playoffs? Why'd he get pulled? Consistent you think?
The exact same as Schneider's at even strength. He got burned by all those shorthanded breakaways the Canucks allowed.

He got pulled because we have 2 good goalies, and there was no sense in being eliminated without using everything in our arsenal.

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11-29-2012, 09:30 PM
  #131
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

Save percentage leaders.

The ones with more than 10 games played are all from good teams...

The only 2 goalies with higher than .920 on non playoffs teams are Kiprusoff and Lehtonen... both damn good goalies who played on team who almost made the playoffs.


You guys are kidding yourselves if you think playing on a good team doesn't inflate your numbers.

Proof
1. Schneider's superiority over Luongo
2. Brian Elliott and Jaro Halak
3. Mike Smith
4. Jim Howard

these guys are nothing special

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Old
11-29-2012, 09:31 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
1-Thomas is a freak, everyone knows that. There is nothing normal about him. Brodeur is WAY past his prime, sorry. I mean LOL at Brodeur... do you think he should be there because of his performance this year too?
2-Well they decline, just like every other player. Doesn't mean they can't play anymore, just means they aren't as good.
3/4-Lu's not as good as he was in florida. And goalie stats aren't inflated?!!! Mike Smith, Brian Elliott, etc. Check out the Save% leaders... all from playoff teams. Are you for real?
5-Leafs are interested. No one else. How can you make that guarantee, especially when Gillis thinks like Canicks fans (overrates him) and everyone else thinks something closer to me?
6-He can lose it quite easily. Was far from spectacular in 2011-12. Not playing this year. In y2k's words, ''has horrible octobers'' or something like that... yeah I don't like his chances.
1- So just ignore Thomas, okay. And yes, Brodeur is past his prime, but guess what? He still got the nod to start for team Canada in 2010.

2- So you're basing this on that you expect Luongo to decline. What about other goalies like Vokoun or Kiprusoff? Neither of those goalies were/are as good as Luongo, and they haven't declined noticeably as of yet.

3/4- So you're saying Luongo, who's average sv% in Florida was .9192%, and in Vancouver was .9197%, so obviously Luongo must have suddenly declined without anyone knowing it for his sv% to have remained the same. And are you really going to take the sv% of goalies only one season after being traded as a benchmark? See if Elliott or Smith repeat, then come back to me.

5- Avatar bet that Luongo will not be backing up Schneider in 2013-2014?

6-Sure he could lose it, just like Brodeur lost it. But he'll still start, and it's his to lose.

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11-29-2012, 09:33 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by RDRR View Post
The exact same as Schneider's at even strength. He got burned by all those shorthanded breakaways the Canucks allowed.

He got pulled because we have 2 good goalies, and there was no sense in being eliminated without using everything in our arsenal.
And this is supposed to prove to me he's an elite goalie? That he got scored on?

This has very little to do with Schneider. Point is Lu is inconsistent. I don't want to risk him having a bad day at the OG.

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11-29-2012, 09:37 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
And this is supposed to prove to me he's an elite goalie? That he got scored on?

This has very little to do with Schneider. Point is Lu is inconsistent. I don't want to risk him having a bad day at the OG.
So lets go with Ward who's been more inconsistent than Luongo. Although in international play Ward was consistent...consistently bad. At least we will know we have a bad goalie and can compensate for it? Is that your plan?

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11-29-2012, 09:41 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
1- So just ignore Thomas, okay. And yes, Brodeur is past his prime, but guess what? He still got the nod to start for team Canada in 2010.

2- So you're basing this on that you expect Luongo to decline. What about other goalies like Vokoun or Kiprusoff? Neither of those goalies were/are as good as Luongo, and they haven't declined noticeably as of yet.

3/4- So you're saying Luongo, who's average sv% in Florida was .9192%, and in Vancouver was .9197%, so obviously Luongo must have suddenly declined without anyone knowing it for his sv% to have remained the same. And are you really going to take the sv% of goalies only one season after being traded as a benchmark? See if Elliott or Smith repeat, then come back to me.

5- Avatar bet that Luongo will not be backing up Schneider in 2013-2014?

6-Sure he could lose it, just like Brodeur lost it. But he'll still start, and it's his to lose.
1- I'm not ignoring Thomas, I'm saying Thomas is completely different and not really comparable to Luongo. They have completely different career paths, you have no idea if Lu will be that good in old age.

2- Kipper is very good at times, but again extremely inconsistent. He's due for a bad year again. Vokoun has started to decline just last season. Hence splitting time with Neuwirth and Holtby, and being traded for scraps.

3/4- Luongo is definitely worse than he was in Florida. His SV% is higher because he plays on a good team, simple. Elliott and Smith, my point exactly. They are nothing special but put up great numbers on good teams.

5- Avatar bet than Luongo will not start for Vancouver in 2013-14.

6- if he doesn't play/sucks in 2013-14, he won't start

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11-29-2012, 09:43 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So lets go with Ward who's been more inconsistent than Luongo. Although in international play Ward was consistent...consistently bad. At least we will know we have a bad goalie and can compensate for it? Is that your plan?
Ward is more consistent in the NHL. He's also a big game player. And no the WC are not big games.

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11-29-2012, 09:43 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
And this is supposed to prove to me he's an elite goalie? That he got scored on?
Nope. The point was that Luongo was just as good as Schneider at even strength, and was left out to dry on special teams (there were considerably fewer short handed chances for the Kings after Schneider came in).

Do you understand now?

See when I was mentioning even strength save percentage, you should have understood I was making a point about special teams. The fact that you took "he got scored on" from my post is very concerning.

...unless you somehow believe Luongo was playing on a level battlefield with Schneider when he was facing a LAK penalty kill that was more potent offensively than the VAN PP, whereas Schneider was not.

You said Schneider showed what a real goalie could do behind that system. Be able to defend this opinion is essential to quantifying your opinion on anything about Luongo.

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11-29-2012, 09:47 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
2. Brian Elliott and Jaro Halak
3. Mike Smith
4. Jim Howard

these guys are nothing special
That's right. Get more Western conference fanbases who have seen Luongo play many more time than you have against you.

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11-29-2012, 09:53 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by RDRR View Post
Nope. The point was that Luongo was just as good as Schneider at even strength, and was left out to dry on special teams (there were considerably fewer short handed chances for the Kings after Schneider came in).

Do you understand now?

See when I was mentioning even strength save percentage, you should have understood I was making a point about special teams. The fact that you took "he got scored on" from my post is very concerning.

...unless you somehow believe Luongo was playing on a level battlefield with Schneider when he was facing a LAK penalty kill that was more potent offensively than the VAN PP, whereas Schneider was not.

You said Schneider showed what a real goalie could do behind that system. Be able to defend this opinion is essential to quantifying your opinion on anything about Luongo.
Luongo faced half the shots Schneider did though. AND scoring chances short-handed doesn't automatically mean a goal against. Goalies are allowed to make the save you know. That's my point.


Schnieder had a MUCH better regular season... mostly due to being consistent and not inconsistent like Luongo.

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11-29-2012, 09:56 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
1- I'm not ignoring Thomas, I'm saying Thomas is completely different and not really comparable to Luongo. They have completely different career paths, you have no idea if Lu will be that good in old age.

2- Kipper is very good at times, but again extremely inconsistent. He's due for a bad year again. Vokoun has started to decline just last season. Hence splitting time with Neuwirth and Holtby, and being traded for scraps.

3/4- Luongo is definitely worse than he was in Florida. His SV% is higher because he plays on a good team, simple. Elliott and Smith, my point exactly. They are nothing special but put up great numbers on good teams.

5- Avatar bet than Luongo will not start for Vancouver in 2013-14.

6- if he doesn't play/sucks in 2013-14, he won't start
1-Well looking at Thomas, Brodeur, Vokoun, Nabokov, Theodore, Kiprusoff, all of whom had great seasons at 35, I'd say it's safe to say Luongo won't buck the trend.

2-Vokoun played fine until he was injured, not sure what you're talking about.

3/4- So again, his somehow his play declined exactly to the point where he was getting the exact same numbers as his career average in Florida? And you can't judge a goalie's performance based on one season. If Smith and Elliott repeat, then come back.

5- Uh, no. You specifically said Luongo will get less playing time behind Schneider in 2013-2014. And I would bet you that Luongo will be the starter, wherever he is, in 2013-2014.

6- And if Miller sucks, he also won't start for USA. So what? Luongo has never had a season with a below .913 sv% in his career. Expecting him to suddenly suck seems more like something you want to happen than something one can realistically expect.

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11-29-2012, 10:07 PM
  #141
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I hate this logic

Neither Fleury nor Ward stood on top of their heads to win their cups. Carolina squeaked out their cup win after their opponents lost their starting goalie in game1 of the cup finals. Both goalies played behind deep teams that were firing on all cylinders.

Also, if you wanna use team accomplishments to justify not picking Luongo, Luongo won the tournament we are making this team for...
That must be why Ward won the Conn Smythe...

Montreal scored 9 goals in 4 periods against Gerber. Ward came in afterwards and completely destroyed us. I get that you might have some unresolved issues about losing to Carolina in the SCF but Ward was unreal that playoffs and you only embarrass yourself saying otherwise.

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11-29-2012, 10:10 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
1-Well looking at Thomas, Brodeur, Vokoun, Nabokov, Theodore, Kiprusoff, all of whom had great seasons at 35, I'd say it's safe to say Luongo won't buck the trend.

2-Vokoun played fine until he was injured, not sure what you're talking about.

3/4- So again, his somehow his play declined exactly to the point where he was getting the exact same numbers as his career average in Florida? And you can't judge a goalie's performance based on one season. If Smith and Elliott repeat, then come back.

5- Uh, no. You specifically said Luongo will get less playing time behind Schneider in 2013-2014. And I would bet you that Luongo will be the starter, wherever he is, in 2013-2014.

6- And if Miller sucks, he also won't start for USA. So what? Luongo has never had a season with a below .913 sv% in his career. Expecting him to suddenly suck seems more like something you want to happen than something one can realistically expect.
1-It's not impossible. But that said would you be comfortable playing any of those guys at 35 to start for Canada in the Olympics? Maybe Thomas, that's it for me.

2- Overall Vokoun was not great. Not sure what you're talking about. Started off hot but cooled down a lot.

3- He didn't decline immediately obviously. But right now he is worse than in Florida. Pretty obvious. You're not getting my point about Elliott and Smith. They have sucked for MULTIPLE seasons, but this year were very good just suddenly. Because they finally played on a good team.

5- Yep if Lu and Schneider play on the same team, Schneider will play more. I didn't take your bet in case Lu gets traded, because then he obviously wouldn't be backing up Schneider.

6- I could see him being lower than that in the first half of 2013-14. Bad Octobers remember?

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11-29-2012, 10:15 PM
  #143
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I'd take Luongo as the first goalie. He's going to a have a lot of fuel once he's shipped out of Vancouver. So much fuel that his anxiety will not get the better of him anymore. He's gonna beast. Can't wait.

Honestly, I think Ward is a big letdown in these international tournies.

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11-29-2012, 10:17 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Ward is more consistent in the NHL. He's also a big game player. And no the WC are not big games.
Ward is bad in International games... which the Olympics are.

WC big games aren't big games? Boy I love when people cherry pick what does & doesn't count to fit their argument.

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11-29-2012, 10:24 PM
  #145
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1-It's not impossible. But that said would you be comfortable playing any of those guys at 35 to start for Canada in the Olympics? Maybe Thomas, that's it for me.

2- Overall Vokoun was not great. Not sure what you're talking about. Started off hot but cooled down a lot.

3- He didn't decline immediately obviously. But right now he is worse than in Florida. Pretty obvious. You're not getting my point about Elliott and Smith. They have sucked for MULTIPLE seasons, but this year were very good just suddenly. Because they finally played on a good team.

5- Yep if Lu and Schneider play on the same team, Schneider will play more. I didn't take your bet in case Lu gets traded, because then he obviously wouldn't be backing up Schneider.

6- I could see him being lower than that in the first half of 2013-14. Bad Octobers remember?
1- Not impossible? Okay then...Luongo obviously must have some condition that I'm unaware of that would make him more likely to decline than other goalies.

2- Agree to disagree then? Vokoun was fine until he got injured.

3- He just a year removed from Vezina nomination. He won the Olympic Gold. The Canucks were near the top of the league in shots allowed on net. There is quite literally nothing that supports your claim that Luongo has declined.

Who's a better team, Philadelphia or Phoenix? Wait, so why did Bryzgalov...
You might be able to make an argument for the system, but definitely not the calibre of the team. Vancouver plays a very offense-oriented game. Anyone who watched the Canucks could see that for the last stretch of the season our offense had dried up due to injuries and overall complacency, and it was goaltending that bailed us out time and time again.

5- You said Luongo will be playing less in 2013-2014 because of Schneider, when there is no chance that that will happen.

6- So just assume he'll suck, okay, I guess we'll see then.

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11-29-2012, 10:33 PM
  #146
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The hatred for Luongo is absolutely ridiculous, I don't know how you Canucks fans can keep doing this, I'd have pulled out all my hair by now.

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11-29-2012, 11:12 PM
  #147
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The hatred for Luongo is absolutely ridiculous, I don't know how you Canucks fans can keep doing this, I'd have pulled out all my hair by now.
There's a lot of Vancouver fans that rip Luongo.
Honestly, it's a bit of a love-hate relationship with him. Hey, when a guy is beast mode one night and then lets in easy goals the next night, that's just the type of support that some fans will give.

I'll tell you one thing though. Having Luongo as a Canucks goalie has taken me on a rollercoaster ride that I will never forget.

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11-29-2012, 11:13 PM
  #148
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Luongo is better then Ward. I wouldn't even be surprised if he was the starter let alone the back up.

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11-29-2012, 11:29 PM
  #149
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I'm not replying to your post because you are putting words in my mouth.

No where in this thread did I say anything about regular season stats, depleted defense, etc.

All I am basing my opinion on is how they performed on the biggest stage in their career (SCF). Ward clearly can handle a big game while Luongo cant.

Ryan Miller was the best goalie in that tournament by far, Luongo was probably 4th behind Hiller and Halak.
Well in the biggest stage, Luongo went up against a better team, with a depleted line-up and still managed to win us 3 games including 2 shutouts.

I take it you didn't watch that SCF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
Cam Ward is a much better choice because he performed much better when the pressure was on. He was clutch while Luongo was the opposite. Even in 2010 - a bad rebound with less than 2 minutes left that results in a goal...not clutch. The game where he made the "big save" on Demitra? Go watch the first Slovak goal. Way to protect a 3-0 lead with less than 10 minutes left

:50 seconds


If you want to debate me debate me on that point. I'm not getting drawn into statistical nonsense.
Because you know you will lose, and I will admit the 1st goal wasn't his greatest, but the 2nd goal can't be faulted entirely to him, everyone was puck watching and the Slovak was able to stand right infront and bang it in without a Scratch to show for it.

According to you Ward was much better in the big stage, yet he got blown in back to back years in clutch moment's for Canada, whereas Luongo played great in the Olympics.

And BTW, you can say they won "in spite" of Luongo, but if that's the case then why did they put him on the team? Or even start him in the GMG? They could have chosen any other canadian goalie, but unlike you they have smart hockey people and realize he was the best option.

We didn't win in spite of anyone, it's a team game & everyone did there part in 2010, including Lu.

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11-29-2012, 11:31 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
1- Not impossible? Okay then...Luongo obviously must have some condition that I'm unaware of that would make him more likely to decline than other goalies.

2- Agree to disagree then? Vokoun was fine until he got injured.

3- He just a year removed from Vezina nomination. He won the Olympic Gold. The Canucks were near the top of the league in shots allowed on net. There is quite literally nothing that supports your claim that Luongo has declined.

Who's a better team, Philadelphia or Phoenix? Wait, so why did Bryzgalov...
You might be able to make an argument for the system, but definitely not the calibre of the team. Vancouver plays a very offense-oriented game. Anyone who watched the Canucks could see that for the last stretch of the season our offense had dried up due to injuries and overall complacency, and it was goaltending that bailed us out time and time again.

5- You said Luongo will be playing less in 2013-2014 because of Schneider, when there is no chance that that will happen.

6- So just assume he'll suck, okay, I guess we'll see then.
1- ? I wouldn't be comfortable with ANY of those goalies at 35... ??? What are you talking about?

2- And he got injured. And he came back and was not good. You know... like an ageing goalie. Right?

3- Since getting to Vancouver, the average NHL save % has been steadily climbing. Up to .914 in 2011-12. Luongo had .919 (on a great team), suggesting he is slightly above average.

He was well above average before. Not anymore, while the Canucks have become a Presidents Trophy winner. Something's wrong here. As demonstrated, good teams have good save %, and not necessarily because of the goalie (Elliott, Halak, Howard and Smith).

Also, luongo321 has admitted (finally someone did, was that so hard?) that Luongo is inconsistent and gives up soft goals.

4- Name a goalie with a great save % who played on a bad team... that's right, you can't. The Canucks do not play run and gun, not even close. they have terrific defensive players, and Lu's .919 sv% is NOT why they gave up less than 200 goals. Mother of God. You HONESTLY think your team is bad defensively and Lu is the reason why they gave up less than 200? Please. Please.

5- ??
If both are on the same team, Lu will be backing up Schneider. That's what I think. You're saying there is no chance of this happening? Please.

6- yep. won't be as good as Ward.

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