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Old
11-29-2012, 08:25 PM
  #51
The Zetterberg Era
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Kesler is closer to Zetterberg than Filppula.

I would trade Higgins and Hansen for Kronwall. Those 2 forwards compare quite well to the Detroit duo...

Heck, take David Booth and Hansen for Kronwall.
We just did this in a poll but Kesler isn't close to Zetterberg. I don't think Filppula is as good as Kesler but he is heck of lot closer than Kesler (who we haven't seen bounce back from injury yet) is to Zetterberg. Zetterberg has a .93 regular season PPG average and .94 in the playoffs. His PPGA is actually .01 higher than Marty St. Louis.

My point was more Filppula's numbers mirror Kesler's numbers in a lot of ways. When given the chance in a top 6 role with more offensive opportunity they have gone up. If the trend continues he will be off Kesler's pace in the same number of games by what 15 to 20 points. He isn't the defensive player but it was to show a Canucks fan he is seriously downgrading Filppula by using someone they are familiar with.

Is Kesler's role on the Canucks the same as Zetterberg maybe. But Zetterberg is a much better player, they don't stack up at all.

Zetterberg PPGA difference to Kesler: .93 -.60 = .33 Playoffs .94 -.68 = .26
Kesler PPGA difference to Filppula: .60 -.53 = .07 Playoffs .68 - .56 = .12


Last edited by The Zetterberg Era: 11-29-2012 at 08:33 PM.
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Old
11-29-2012, 08:29 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Yet you called Edler a 50 point defensman, even though he has never hit 50 points??? Your bias is amazing. Filppla: hit 66 points once. Not a 60 point center. That's fine...I can see why you would say that. You want to see more than one season. Edler: never hit 50 points. 50 point defensman. Wait, what? Oh, and what are the chances of you signing Filppula and Edler. Close to none. Detroit as of right now has 9m in cap. They could easily re-sign Filppula and sign Edler. Vancouver will barely be able to squeeze Edler in. That's a pathetic counter argument.


Edler has averaged 49P/82GP over the last 3 years, as a 23-26 year old...

Absolutely nothing wrong with calling him a 50 point defenseman.

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11-29-2012, 08:31 PM
  #53
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Where did I call Edler a 50 point defensemen? Next time I'll be more specific, 49points, my bad.

The Canucks cap situation in over a year can go a lot of different ways, you have no idea what it will look like.
This statement right here...
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Check around the league and see how many 30ish point and 60ish point centres there are, then go look at how many defensemen are putting up 50 points. Edler is also big, physical and just starting to really round out his game.
Unless you were talking about someone else, then you referred to Edler as a 50 point defensman. 49 points, yes, I know its a technicality. It may as well be 50. However, if you're refusing to call Filppula a 66 point center because he has only hit that total once, then you can't call Edler a 50 point defenseman either, since he basically only hit that once.



Yeah, sorry no, but if you want to believe the Canucks could actually afford both Edler then Filppula next year, then go ahead. You can dream all you want.

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11-29-2012, 08:39 PM
  #54
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Man, what a storm this caused. My only rationale was Edler > Filppula, and if Detroit had to add a player that would be useful to us, Helm makes sense, given we need a 3C(and were giving up Schroeder in my OP) and Detroit has a bunch of players like Tatar or Jarnkok that could fill in the holes on offense, and that the downgrade would be worth it to add an (arguably) number 1 Dman.

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11-29-2012, 08:42 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Is Kesler's role on the Canucks the same as Zetterberg maybe. But Zetterberg is a much better player, they don't stack up at all.
Zetterberg WAS a much better player than Kesler early in their respective careers. Over the last 3-4 years Kesler has closed the gap and blossomed into one of the most dominant two-way centremen in the league.

Ask 100 people if they would prefer Kesler or Filppula and all 100 choose Kesler. Ask those same people who they take, Kesler or Zetterberg and the results will be much different.

Zetterberg has had a much more illustrious career than Kesler up to this point and will retire with better numbers but if you're looking at the present and immediate future, the 2 become close.

In short, they stack up very well going forward.

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11-29-2012, 08:44 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Man, what a storm this caused. My only rationale was Edler > Filppula, and if Detroit had to add a player that would be useful to us, Helm makes sense, given we need a 3C(and were giving up Schroeder in my OP) and Detroit has a bunch of players like Tatar or Jarnkok that could fill in the holes on offense, and that the downgrade would be worth it to add an (arguably) number 1 Dman.
I got that sorry for the strom, once again I just thought Helm was too big a plus. Maybe Abdelkader and something else. I don't know. I don't love the deal, but the bigger hurdle is I am guessing from the comments from the Wings organization would be even more against it. They really like Helm, they wouldn't make him available in either the Nash or Yandle bids. It isn't the plus I see Vancouver getting.

I don't know that they are all that ready to move Abdelkader either as most Wings fans. But him and a prospect is probably more doable in any trade than Helm.

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11-29-2012, 08:50 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post


Edler has averaged 49P/82GP over the last 3 years, as a 23-26 year old...

Absolutely nothing wrong with calling him a 50 point defenseman.
And Filppula has averaged 55 points over the last 3 seasons, and he has not even been in a top 6 role that entire time. Edler has also been put in a position for success. Edler was nicely sheltered last season by Hamhuis and Bieksa. Lead Vancouver D in icetime, faced the 3rd toughest competion of all Vancouver D, and had the most offensive zone starts of all Vancouver D. Not taking away from Edler, I would absolutely love him, but I'm sure if Filppula had been put in an offensive role by the wings and given more ice time I could easily call him a 60 point center over the past 3 years.

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11-29-2012, 08:52 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Zetterberg WAS a much better player than Kesler early in their respective careers. Over the last 3-4 years Kesler has closed the gap and blossomed into one of the most dominant two-way centremen in the league.

Ask 100 people if they would prefer Kesler or Filppula and all 100 choose Kesler. Ask those same people who they take, Kesler or Zetterberg and the results will be much different.

Zetterberg has had a much more illustrious career than Kesler up to this point and will retire with better numbers but if you're looking at the present and immediate future, the 2 become close.

In short, they stack up very well going forward.
I said I thought Kesler was a better player than Filppula. Last I checked that Zetterberg and Kesler poll was at something like 70 to 10. Guessing you can get a couple crazy Wings fans to vote or speculate Kesler won't bounce back and Filppula will trend forward. I am not one, but think they could end up in similar neighborhoods with Kesler still the superior player.

Kesler came back from injury and had 49 points in 77 games and had to have another major surgery. Both of those surgeries hip and shoulder have been known to derail productivity. I don't know that this trend is as certain as you say and I don't think outside of a very poor October last year that Zetterberg has slowed down at all yet. He was one of the best players in the league over the whole backhalf of the season and then at the WC.

It wasn't meant to downgrade Kesler. I think you will find he has a lot of fans in Detroit. I like the way he plays and he is a local boy from Livonia and still spends his off-seasons in the Detroit area. My point was more to show something with Filppula. When placed in a top 6 role much like Kesler a big spike in production happened. Will he be as good no, just like Kesler won't be as good as Zetterberg. I was more pushing Filppula value is not useless and his trend should hit home with somebody else the Canucks are very familiar with. That doesn't make it his ceiling it was just an exercise to point out Filppula's value sorry if it has upset people. I don't think it is unfair and certainly think he is closer to making that association than Kesler is to Zetterberg sorry.

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11-29-2012, 09:08 PM
  #59
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I read all three pages of this thread in my outdoor voice

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11-29-2012, 09:44 PM
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Personally, I do not see us having to add Schroeder to get Gardiner and a first from Toronto. On the Detroit front, what about Gardiner for Franzen+ or something like that?

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11-29-2012, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Zetterberg WAS a much better player than Kesler early in their respective careers. Over the last 3-4 years Kesler has closed the gap and blossomed into one of the most dominant two-way centremen in the league.

Ask 100 people if they would prefer Kesler or Filppula and all 100 choose Kesler. Ask those same people who they take, Kesler or Zetterberg and the results will be much different.

Zetterberg has had a much more illustrious career than Kesler up to this point and will retire with better numbers but if you're looking at the present and immediate future, the 2 become close.

In short, they stack up very well going forward.
I love Kesler; favorite player on the roster but yeah, I'm getting Zetterberg over him. Kesler needs another huge season before you can make the case he trumps Zetterberg overall.

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11-29-2012, 09:48 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
To Toronto: Schneider, Schroeder
To Vancouver: Gardiner, 1st

To Detroit: Edler
To Vancouver: Filppula, Helm

Toronto gets a goalie and potential top-6C, Detroit gets a beastly defensman, and Vancouver gets a potential beastly defenseman, an established 3C, and a solid top-6 winger(who can play C)
Toronto is not going to trade Gardiner and a first for a goaltender, especially one as unproven as Schnedier.

An unproven goaltender to tandem with Reimer would have value to the Leafs if we're unable to procure a goaltender that does not come at the expense of our future, but giving up our best young assets for one makes absolutely no sense. We'd be looking for a team that has an extra body in goal, and is looking for more depth up front and/or prospects who can challenge for NHL spots. Rookies coming off incredible years and 17 year old top prospects are not what's going to be on the block.

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11-29-2012, 09:58 PM
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Toronto is not going to trade Gardiner and a first for a goaltender, especially one as unproven as Schnedier.

An unproven goaltender to tandem with Reimer would have value to the Leafs if we're unable to procure a goaltender that does not come at the expense of our future, but giving up our best young assets for one makes absolutely no sense. We'd be looking for a team that has an extra body in goal, and is looking for more depth up front and/or prospects who can challenge for NHL spots. Rookies coming off incredible years and 17 year old top prospects are not what's going to be on the block.
Then you wouldn't get Schneider. He too is coming off an incredible year and has played only seven less career games than Gardiner. You are also making the assumption he will fail, thus citing a "top prospect" when the argument could just as easily be spun to say he drags Toronto into the playoffs and that pick is sixteen high.

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11-29-2012, 10:21 PM
  #64
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Same difference. You're arguing he's a great third line centre and then talking about how many points he put up in his first season in the top 6. Detroit would jump at landing Edler for a couple bottom 6 players, the Canucks would never do that.
Filppula isn't a bottom six player...and I have no problem calling Helm one of the best bottom six players in the league.

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11-29-2012, 10:24 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Kesler is closer to Zetterberg than Filppula.

I would trade Higgins and Hansen for Kronwall. Those 2 forwards compare quite well to the Detroit duo...

Heck, take David Booth and Hansen for Kronwall.
Are you serious? Higgins and Hansen aren't even close to Filppula and Helm.

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11-29-2012, 10:26 PM
  #66
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I think Hansen-Helm is a fair comparison. The Canucks don't have anyone who compares to Filppula though. We definitely could use a player like him, though.

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11-29-2012, 10:31 PM
  #67
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Leaf's don't touch this with a 10 foot pole. We already learned the consequence of trading a 1st rounder before you know where it will land. With a lockout or not the Leafs have a decent chance at Mackinnon. The risk of this first rounder turning into gold + letting a stud like Gardiner go is way to big of a risk for a goalie.

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11-29-2012, 10:46 PM
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I think it's unfortunate how after one trade a large number of Leafs fans are unwilling to make any trades that are not a clear cut steal for them. Sure, Schneider might bust and you could miss out on another Seguin. Or Schneider could become a franchise goaltender, Schroeder a solid two-way centre that complements Kessel/Lupul, Gardiner bust, and the pick turns out to be a 4th line grinder.

There's risk involved in any trade. A 7th rounder for Crosby? But Crosby has concussion injuries and the 7th rounder might be the next Lidstrom/Datsyuk.

Risk is a part of trades. Deal with it.

/rant

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11-29-2012, 11:21 PM
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I don't think that's the case here.

You've already had it explained to you- Leafers aren't going to want to trade an unknown 1st rounder. I think Gardiner and a 1st is overpayment for Schneider imo anyway. The leafs have zero use for Schroeder, why would they want him? Burke is always wanting to get bigger/more physical- Schroeder is the opposite of that.

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11-29-2012, 11:29 PM
  #70
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I don't think that's the case here.

You've already had it explained to you- Leafers aren't going to want to trade an unknown 1st rounder. I think Gardiner and a 1st is overpayment for Schneider imo anyway. The leafs have zero use for Schroeder, why would they want him? Burke is always wanting to get bigger/more physical- Schroeder is the opposite of that.
Schroeder is tenacious, has a great work ethic, is defensively sound, and American. Burke would love him.

I don't understand why people assume the leafs pick will be top-5. Add a legitimate goaltender and their a payoff team, imo. If the Leafs had a top-5 pick already in the bag, then I might consider trading Schneider for it straight up, but I think it's far more likely to be in the 10-20 range.

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11-29-2012, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think it's unfortunate how after one trade a large number of Leafs fans are unwilling to make any trades that are not a clear cut steal for them. Sure, Schneider might bust and you could miss out on another Seguin. Or Schneider could become a franchise goaltender, Schroeder a solid two-way centre that complements Kessel/Lupul, Gardiner bust, and the pick turns out to be a 4th line grinder.

There's risk involved in any trade. A 7th rounder for Crosby? But Crosby has concussion injuries and the 7th rounder might be the next Lidstrom/Datsyuk.

Risk is a part of trades. Deal with it.

/rant
Maybe it may have something to do with us believing in our players. Gardiner has unreal skating and looked amazing in his first year in the league. This draft is looking to be one of the most center deep in many years (Mackinnon, Monahan, Barkov, Lindholm among others ). Gardiner is much more of a sure thing then Schroeder is. Even Kadri, who is ripped apart by everyone has made much more progress than the undersized Schroeder. With regards to Schneider, yes he is a solid goaltender who could potentially become a main stay in Leaf. But is he worth risking a potential top 5 pick on? Hell no.

Yes there are risks in every trade. But the Leaf's are in no position to gamble two essential pieces to there future for a chance to find a solid goaltender.

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11-29-2012, 11:32 PM
  #72
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Edler is the type of player you make room for to re-sign. I have no concerns that Canucks management will let him walk.
If the NHL gets their way (And like it or not, they will) the Canucks might not have a choice. Even if they get rid of Luongo it'll be hard.

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11-29-2012, 11:34 PM
  #73
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Maybe it may have something to do with us believing in our players. Gardiner has unreal skating and looked amazing in his first year in the league. This draft is looking to be one of the most center deep in many years (Mackinnon, Monahan, Barkov, Lindholm among others ). Gardiner is much more of a sure thing then Schroeder is. Even Kadri, who is ripped apart by everyone has made much more progress than the undersized Schroeder. With regards to Schneider, yes he is a solid goaltender who could potentially become a main stay in Leaf. But is he worth risking a potential top 5 pick on? Hell no.

Yes there are risks in every trade. But the Leaf's are in no position to gamble two essential pieces to there future for a chance to find a solid goaltender.
Imo: Schneider > Gardiner and 1st > Schroeder.

Heck, you could even make it top-10 protected and I wouldn't care. Leafs + Schneider(or Luongo) = playoffs. The 1st is really not all that valuable when you have legitimate goaltending.

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11-30-2012, 12:16 AM
  #74
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Just a canucks fan looking at the wings depth chart.

I don't know why wings fans are so high on Filppula. Actually I've even seen a lot of wings fans who would rather trade Franzen than Filppula.

Franzen for a few years there was probably the deadliest playoff sniper. He has a rare combination of size and hands where he can score in close and from far.

I know filppula has decent skill and probably puts up decent point production.

But you already have Datsyuk/ Zetterberg. Both are not that old. And you also have Nyquist who looks like he will be better than filppula.

Thats 3 high skilled smallish players with vision. Wouldn't you rather keep a bigger forward like franzen and trade filppula?

And I haven't even name guys like tatar / ferraro.

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11-30-2012, 12:23 AM
  #75
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Imo: Schneider > Gardiner and 1st > Schroeder.

Heck, you could even make it top-10 protected and I wouldn't care. Leafs + Schneider(or Luongo) = playoffs. The 1st is really not all that valuable when you have legitimate goaltending.
There are other ways to acquire goaltending then sending two very important assets. You cannot also assume goaltending = playoffs. A solid D is also needed, which Toronto has failed to provide their goalies year after year There's no way to know how Schneider will adjust to becoming a number 1 goalie in the biggest market in hockey. There's the massive media attention and also the chance at an injury as well as not being able to adjust to a new system. There's far too many risks for the Leaf's to move their first.

I just don't see the reason why Burke would want to pay top dollar in a trade for an unproven goaltender. I see that Schneider makes sense for Toronto but not for that price.

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