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And we are locked out again (No Progress ,, Talks collapse)

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Old
11-29-2012, 08:49 PM
  #951
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Interesting idea by Betteman, asked NHLPA if they wanted to have meeting with just owners and players, no members from either board in the meeting. Shows that Betteman wants hockey and is willing to try anything to get it done.

It's a different idea but one I think has some merit and could work. Cut out the middle man and let the people who are the ones taking part in this sit down and try to hash out a plan to get this thing back on track.

The PA's response to this tells me everything. If they say they yes then they want to get hockey back. If they refuse Fehr has proven he wants nothing to do with settling and only wants to prolong this lockout and therefore his media exposure and that the players want $ and couldn't care less about anything else.

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11-29-2012, 10:18 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
Interesting idea by Betteman, asked NHLPA if they wanted to have meeting with just owners and players, no members from either board in the meeting. Shows that Betteman wants hockey and is willing to try anything to get it done.

It's a different idea but one I think has some merit and could work. Cut out the middle man and let the people who are the ones taking part in this sit down and try to hash out a plan to get this thing back on track.

The PA's response to this tells me everything. If they say they yes then they want to get hockey back. If they refuse Fehr has proven he wants nothing to do with settling and only wants to prolong this lockout and therefore his media exposure and that the players want $ and couldn't care less about anything else.
excuse me if i'm a bit more cynical than you. firstly, it's not clear who from the owners that bettman proposes would be at this meeting. secondly, i dont' agree that it would be more productive for the owners and the players to negotiate directly with each other...in fact, it sounds to me like a nightmare waiting to happen.

in any event, i don't see this suggestion by bettman as in anyway suggesting that bettman is "willing to try anything "to get hockey back

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11-29-2012, 10:35 PM
  #953
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I think the idea of a players and owners only meeting is a nightmare as well.

The owners are used to planning and negotiating with labor, the players are over their heads on those issues. I think the downside far outweighs the upside, even if the year is wasted.

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11-29-2012, 10:41 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by hockeydoug View Post
I think the idea of a players and owners only meeting is a nightmare as well.

The owners are used to planning and negotiating with labor, the players are over their heads on those issues. I think the downside far outweighs the upside, even if the year is wasted.
Last lockout ended because players and owners were talking

Either way it is only option left for Bettman to try and get this settled. Fehr wants no part of deal nor his hardline followers

Only way to try and get point to players would be face to face

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11-29-2012, 11:13 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Last lockout ended because players and owners were talking

Either way it is only option left for Bettman to try and get this settled. Fehr wants no part of deal nor his hardline followers

Only way to try and get point to players would be face to face
yeah, but which owners? jacobs? i don't see the current exec board of the nhl really being part of the solution.

a meeting b/w the players/owners works if it's about trying to get a deal...it's a nightmare if it's the owners thinking they'll be able to screw the players easier with fehr out of the picture.

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11-29-2012, 11:17 PM
  #956
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I think the idea of a players and owners only meeting is a nightmare as well.

The owners are used to planning and negotiating with labor, the players are over their heads on those issues. I think the downside far outweighs the upside, even if the year is wasted.
i'm a lawyer. let's say for example my clients are 2 residential tenants suing their big company landlord. the landlord's counsel and i are trying to negotiate a settlement and can't get a deal. i don't think the next best effort would be having my two apartment dwelling clients meet with the big co. landlord and trying to work out a settlement by themselves .

lol, my work has nothing to do w/ landlord/tenant matters...but you get the picture

this whole "offer" by bettman just stinks of the nhl screwing around. note that fehr suggested that he meet alone with the owners (w/o bettman around)...funny enough bettman wasn't interested!

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11-29-2012, 11:44 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
Class isn't retweeting someone saying you want someone dead. So what he's frustrated, I think fans are much for frustrated then any player because the fans have nothing to gain by any of this and everything to lose. Last time I checked Bolland is still receiving an NHL paycheck for not working. But he is upset, why because he is on a paid vacation. Bolland made an idiot move and proved like lots of other players have that beneath their great public persona they put out. They're are some of the most selfish moronic people on the planet and the one smart thing any of them can do is SHUT-UP!
This just kills me.

Any fan that is more frustrated by the lockout than the players is an abject fool. It's their life, the fans should get their own.

And if you have so much deep-seeded antipathy toward the players, why do you bother here or with you recreational time and dollars watching or going to games? Go away, find something you can be with rooting for people you respect. If you have so little respect for the people that have dedicated their whole life to the game, that sacrifice their bodies and live for the competition - and instead side with the owners that bought into the game doing something else, fine. Corporations hold annual meetings that are open to the public, and quarterly conference calls you can listen into and learn all about the process of maximizing (near-term) profits. Find your new heroes there. But don't come back here later and talk about how great of a leader Toews is or how tough Bolland is to play against.

You're a company man. The players are the help to you.

For the record, players are not receiving NHL paychecks, but the owners are still getting their salary plus stadium-related income plus other business income. It is what it is, but let's keep it straight.


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11-29-2012, 11:56 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
i'm a lawyer. let's say for example my clients are 2 residential tenants suing their big company landlord. the landlord's counsel and i are trying to negotiate a settlement and can't get a deal. i don't think the next best effort would be having my two apartment dwelling clients meet with the big co. landlord and trying to work out a settlement by themselves .

lol, my work has nothing to do w/ landlord/tenant matters...but you get the picture

this whole "offer" by bettman just stinks of the nhl screwing around. note that fehr suggested that he meet alone with the owners (w/o bettman around)...funny enough bettman wasn't interested!
I don't think it's a ploy for the owners to screw the players. If the players are stupid enough to "get screwed" then that's on them anyway.

I think it's a idea to get the people who are at the heart of the matter and who are the ones truly involved in this lockout and get them talking.

As Blackhawkswincup said the last lockout ended because this happened. The NBA lockout ended because the players decertified their union and met with the owners themselves and cut out the middle man.

At the end of the day Fehr has his own agenda and his own ideals and desires from this lockout and at the end of the day getting back to hockey isn't one of them. I think Hamrlik had it right, the players need to know whats going on and need to be more involved instead of Fehr just sending out his views of the negotiations.

I think Betteman, the owners, and the players want to get back to hockey. Sure there is work to be done but at the end of the day they want to get back to their sports. Fehr doesn't care, he wants to "win" he wants to break Betteman and the owners and get the players everything. Even if his winning would kill the NHL in 10 years and he knew it I still think he does it because he cares about him.

It's not guarantee that anything gets resolved or any progress is made but it's something new. Seeing as mediation did nothing and neither side sees anything changing it's something new that could spark a new thread and get them moving to a deal.

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11-30-2012, 12:21 AM
  #959
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Originally Posted by LarmerSavardSecord View Post
This just kills me.

Any fan that is more frustrated by the lockout than the players is an abject fool. It's their life, the fans should get their own.

And if you have so much deep-seeded antipathy toward the players, why do you bother here or with you recreational time and dollars watching or going to games? Go away, find something you can be with rooting for people you respect. If you have so little respect for the people that have dedicated their whole life to the game, that sacrifice their bodies and live for the competition - and instead side with the owners that bought into the game doing something else, fine. Corporations hold annual meetings that are open to the public, and quarterly conference calls you can listen into and learn all about the process of maximizing (near-term) profits. Find your new heroes there. But don't come back here later and talk about how great of a leader Toews is or how tough Bolland is to play against.

You're a company man. The players are the help to you.

For the record, players are not receiving NHL paychecks, but the owners are still getting their salary plus stadium-related income plus other business income. It is what it is, but let's keep it straight.
My job is working for a hockey team so my life is effected by this as I am not just a fan. I would think though like most on here I am a big fan of the NHL. So I ask.

Why shouldn't fans be upset. Last time I checked the fans are the ones losing out the most in this. Both the owners and players are basically fighting over who get's a larger share of our money. The players are still getting paid, the owners still have other avenues of income, the fans don't have their sport that often times they give the little $ they make to. Don't tell me someone who spends %20 on their yearly income on hockey tickets and etc doesn't have a right to be upset as the NHL and the players fight over 182 million dollars most of which came from those fans. I like others on here love the sport of hockey, this batch of players or a large part of them aren't the sport they are the people who play it. Despite what the players might think they aren't the NHL they are the current people who play in the league, the league was around long before them and will be around long after them. I love the NHL, doesn't mean I have to love all the people in it.
My respect for their ability on the ice hasn't changed or how good they are on the ice. How they have taken and acted during this lockout has. Bolland RT something because someone said I want Betteman dead give me a RT. So Bolland just said he wants a man dead because he represents the people who locked them out. Yes that screams of class and honor. Someone I want my kids to look up to, if someone does something you don't like, wish them dead. Seeing how quickly he took it down and apologized shows he realized it was in poor taste and was something stupid. Again doesn't change his hockey ability.

If they players only care about the competition and the fans why are they working so hard to not play and instead working so hard on getting paid. Let's get it straight, they aren't being asked to work for free or give up most of their money. Their being asked for a 7-12% cut to an average of 2.24 million dollar contract. That is still more then $2 million a year when most of the people on this country make less then $50,000.

Yes players did receive escrow checks which came from the NHL. Owners don't receive salaries they take a cut of what the team makes, seeing as the NHL has made a grand total of $0 since the lockout I am guessing they aren't making a big % right now. The money they get from the arena deals is used to keep the arena maintained and running. Seeing as at the moment there are no NHL games being played that $ is going back into the arena. Plus only a few owners have arena deals. Yes owners are not hurting for $ neither are the players. The owners have other forms of income, so do the players.


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11-30-2012, 12:24 AM
  #960
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Players received a nice chunk of change via escrow.

Sure, LSS, it is their life. They are also ridiculously greedy (as are the owners, but who disagrees with that?). Hence, we dislike them for it.
To vilify someone for stating such an opinion is ludicrous and fairly disingenuous given you're posting on a public message board.

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11-30-2012, 12:33 AM
  #961
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Players received a nice chunk of change via escrow.

Sure, LSS, it is their life. They are also ridiculously greedy (as are the owners, but who disagrees with that?). Hence, we dislike them for it.
To vilify someone for stating such an opinion is ludicrous and fairly disingenuous given you're posting on a public message board.
they received money that had been held back from their pay cheques.

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11-30-2012, 12:38 AM
  #962
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they received money that had been held back from their pay cheques.
Like a tax return it's money they weren't guaranteed to get.

At the end of the day the NHL players got paid by the league to not play.

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11-30-2012, 12:40 AM
  #963
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I don't think it's a ploy for the owners to screw the players. If the players are stupid enough to "get screwed" then that's on them anyway.

I think it's a idea to get the people who are at the heart of the matter and who are the ones truly involved in this lockout and get them talking.

As Blackhawkswincup said the last lockout ended because this happened. The NBA lockout ended because the players decertified their union and met with the owners themselves and cut out the middle man.

At the end of the day Fehr has his own agenda and his own ideals and desires from this lockout and at the end of the day getting back to hockey isn't one of them. I think Hamrlik had it right, the players need to know whats going on and need to be more involved instead of Fehr just sending out his views of the negotiations.

I think Betteman, the owners, and the players want to get back to hockey. Sure there is work to be done but at the end of the day they want to get back to their sports. Fehr doesn't care, he wants to "win" he wants to break Betteman and the owners and get the players everything. Even if his winning would kill the NHL in 10 years and he knew it I still think he does it because he cares about him.

It's not guarantee that anything gets resolved or any progress is made but it's something new. Seeing as mediation did nothing and neither side sees anything changing it's something new that could spark a new thread and get them moving to a deal.
The wise one Roman Hamrlik has it right? Fehr is willing to ruin the league for ten years? (How would that improve his prospects for his next job?) The players have given everything so far. I don't think the Fehr or the players have any illusions of "breaking" Gary, but they will give up some money not to be dominated by the smug punk. Most players will be in the league for the next CBA, so the starting point and perceived leverage matters.

It seems obvious that if we had a structure where a 50%+ vote for players and owners made a deal, we would have no lockout. But a few owners that should not have teams in their current locations (without major subsidies- for the sake for the mis-guided Bettman long-term growth strategy) and a couple of Randian owners are holding up the process It's a de facto filibuster that requires just a 25% nay (or ~15% NHL revenues or teams' fans) of to kill a deal.

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11-30-2012, 12:51 AM
  #964
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Like a tax return it's money they weren't guaranteed to get.

At the end of the day the NHL players got paid by the league to not play.
the escrow was based on last year..it had nothing to do with the lockout. they would have received those cheques whether the year was in progress or not...so, no...they didn't get paid to "not play"

o/t...i started a "favourite team" poll on the polls board. vote early and vote often http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1299597

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11-30-2012, 02:18 AM
  #965
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This just kills me.

Any fan that is more frustrated by the lockout than the players is an abject fool. It's their life, the fans should get their own.

And if you have so much deep-seeded antipathy toward the players, why do you bother here or with you recreational time and dollars watching or going to games? Go away, find something you can be with rooting for people you respect. If you have so little respect for the people that have dedicated their whole life to the game, that sacrifice their bodies and live for the competition - and instead side with the owners that bought into the game doing something else, fine. Corporations hold annual meetings that are open to the public, and quarterly conference calls you can listen into and learn all about the process of maximizing (near-term) profits. Find your new heroes there. But don't come back here later and talk about how great of a leader Toews is or how tough Bolland is to play against.

You're a company man. The players are the help to you.

For the record, players are not receiving NHL paychecks, but the owners are still getting their salary plus stadium-related income plus other business income. It is what it is, but let's keep it straight.
Well said. I don't mean to call anybody out but the hate on the players here is some times over the top and disproportional. Things have been said like they can jump off the cliff and what not. How can somebody root for the players that they have so little respect for when this thing is settled?

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11-30-2012, 07:38 AM
  #966
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
I don't think it's a ploy for the owners to screw the players. If the players are stupid enough to "get screwed" then that's on them anyway.

I think it's a idea to get the people who are at the heart of the matter and who are the ones truly involved in this lockout and get them talking.

As Blackhawkswincup said the last lockout ended because this happened. The NBA lockout ended because the players decertified their union and met with the owners themselves and cut out the middle man.

At the end of the day Fehr has his own agenda and his own ideals and desires from this lockout and at the end of the day getting back to hockey isn't one of them. I think Hamrlik had it right, the players need to know whats going on and need to be more involved instead of Fehr just sending out his views of the negotiations.

I think Betteman, the owners, and the players want to get back to hockey. Sure there is work to be done but at the end of the day they want to get back to their sports. Fehr doesn't care, he wants to "win" he wants to break Betteman and the owners and get the players everything. Even if his winning would kill the NHL in 10 years and he knew it I still think he does it because he cares about him.

It's not guarantee that anything gets resolved or any progress is made but it's something new. Seeing as mediation did nothing and neither side sees anything changing it's something new that could spark a new thread and get them moving to a deal.
Can you please at least spell Bettman right? Hard to take you seriously when you can't.

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Like a tax return it's money they weren't guaranteed to get.

At the end of the day the NHL players got paid by the league to not play
.
Couldn't be further from the truth.

They got paid that money because LAST SEASON THEY PLAYED HOCKEY.

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11-30-2012, 07:43 AM
  #967
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Anyways, I think Bettman is really just trying to
1) hopefully get the players to budge on these contracting rights and end this thing
BUT MORESO
2) kill time so the players don't decertify

He knows if they decertify, the season is dead. I think he's just trying to wait it out, hope they can sway them on some contract rights, and if that doesn't happen, make a legitimate, fair offer the players would certainly agree just before the New Year. They sign, we get a 48 game season starting in early-mid January.

Or, I'm wrong, and the owners cancel a 2nd full season in 8 years and completely kill the league...

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11-30-2012, 09:02 AM
  #968
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I really believe Bettman and the owners are arrogant enough to cancel a second season with minimal concern about the NHL's ability to recover. After all, they just cancelled an entire season and saw the NHL grow in popularity to new heights. Why wouldn't they expect the same result this time? I would like to think they are wrong and there has been permanent damage done by this second lost season but maybe they are right and it is wishful thinking to believe that. The track record says the fans will be back.

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11-30-2012, 09:06 AM
  #969
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..if the players meet with ALL of the owners, there is a chance to rectify the season. If the players meet with the same ********* owners they have been, it won't make a difference.

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11-30-2012, 09:13 AM
  #970
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Last lockout ended because players and owners were talking
And come June or July, I won't care if they talk or not. I'm still in disbelief.

I don't like Fehr, but I think it's best he works things out for the players, they shouldn't be talking for themselves for their interests and the league's interest.

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11-30-2012, 09:30 AM
  #971
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..if the players meet with ALL of the owners, there is a chance to rectify the season. If the players meet with the same ********* owners they have been, it won't make a difference.
Any meeting with the two now will only result in weeks of internal deliberation to come up with a revised plan or proposal before going back to the same mess in my opinion. I'm not in favor of the two sides meeting (without the reps) and I'm completely against them meeting until the season is actually cancelled and both sides have less.

I agree that a meeting with the same owners would be useless.

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11-30-2012, 09:33 AM
  #972
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Don't tell me someone who spends %20 on their yearly income on hockey tickets and etc doesn't have a right to be upset as the NHL and the players fight over 182 million dollars most of which came from those fans.
No they don't. People grow emotionally attached to sports teams and tend to forget that the NHL is a business like any other. We call ourselves fans, but all we really are is consumers buying a product. If a company decides not to offer that product for a period a time they don't owe the consumers (the fans) any explanation, except critical industries and utilities of course. The fact that people are willing to spend so much on tickets and merchandise is a statement about our culture, but it doesn't mean the NHL or the players owe the fans anything.


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Let's get it straight, they aren't being asked to work for free or give up most of their money. Their being asked for a 7-12% cut to an average of 2.24 million dollar contract. That is still more then $2 million a year when most of the people on this country make less then $50,000.
It doesn't matter if someone earns $2 million a year or $50,000 a year, they shouldn't be expected to take a 7-12% pay cut when the company they work for is experiencing record profits.

Also I highly doubt that the players agree to a meeting without representation. Fehr isn't Goodenow. He has the union behind him and he isn't going to make the same mistakes that Goodenow did last time. I'll bet the only reason why Bettman even proposed this is because he knows that the union is behind Fehr and taking him away from the process would weaken their position.

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11-30-2012, 10:22 AM
  #973
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No they don't. People grow emotionally attached to sports teams and tend to forget that the NHL is a business like any other. We call ourselves fans, but all we really are is consumers buying a product. If a company decides not to offer that product for a period a time they don't owe the consumers (the fans) any explanation, except critical industries and utilities of course. The fact that people are willing to spend so much on tickets and merchandise is a statement about our culture, but it doesn't mean the NHL or the players owe the fans anything.




It doesn't matter if someone earns $2 million a year or $50,000 a year, they shouldn't be expected to take a 7-12% pay cut when the company they work for is experiencing record profits.

Also I highly doubt that the players agree to a meeting without representation. Fehr isn't Goodenow. He has the union behind him and he isn't going to make the same mistakes that Goodenow did last time. I'll bet the only reason why Bettman even proposed this is because he knows that the union is behind Fehr and taking him away from the process would weaken their position.
No actually Im pretty sure Bettman knows Fehr is not going to move from his position. He hopes to take the players out of their zombie-like trance and realize they are on the verge of throwing away another season and losing a full years salary in doing so. And who knows what else. They are in a lose-lose situation that gets worse with every passing day.

De-certification, as I understand it, means the season is over and is an unknown on many counts. No matter how you shake it, will be ugly. Very ugly.

And I beg to differ, Fehr is doing just what Goodenow did. Essentially nothing. Just stubbornly waiting for the owners to cave.

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11-30-2012, 10:25 AM
  #974
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
No actually Im pretty sure Bettman knows Fehr is not going to move from his position. He hopes to take the players out of their zombie-like trance and realize they are on the verge of throwing away another season and losing a full years salary in doing so. And who knows what else. They are in a lose-lose situation that gets worse with every passing day.

De-certification, as I understand it, means the season is over and is an unknown on many counts. No matter how you shake it, will be ugly. Very ugly.

And I beg to differ, Fehr is doing just what Goodenow did. Essentially nothing. Just stubbornly waiting for the owners to cave.
No it doesn't but at this point, they don't have much time to get something done.

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11-30-2012, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
After all, they just cancelled an entire season and saw the NHL grow in popularity to new heights. Why wouldn't they expect the same result this time?
1) Because 1 canceled season in 90 years is a lot different than 2 canceled seasons in 8 years

AND

2) Because the fans IMO understood the first one. They knew that the game needed RADICAL changes in order for it be sustainable. They completely revamped the economic system the game follows. This lockout is, IMO, about VERY MINOR ISSUES. To cancel the year over $180 million or whatever it is and contract rights is completely asinine.

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