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Owner-Player meeting only, no Bettman or Fehr (UPD: 12/4 in NYC)

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:54 AM
  #76
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I know these Owners by and large are smarter but there is a real good chance Parros will be the smartest man in the room in terms of labor law and economics. You think the Owners are experts here? They have made a billion dollars creating departments and hiring lawyers to handle this stuff for them as well. Bettman wasn't hired for his hockey prowess, but his accomplishments as a lawyer. It cuts both ways, just because you made a billion dollars doesn't mean you are vastly superior to understanding a talk. This is mostly to clear the air. But for instance Parros wrote his senior thesis on West Coast longshoremen's labor dispute in this subject. Of course he has sat in on every meeting from what I can tell so maybe he has to leave the room too.


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11-30-2012, 02:06 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I know these Owners by and large are smarter but there is a real good chance Parros will be the smartest man in the room in terms of labor law and economics. You think the Owners are experts here? They have made a billion dollars creating departments and hiring lawyers to handle this stuff for them as well. Bettman wasn't hired for his hockey prowess, but his accomplishments as a lawyer.
I like Parros as much anyone here but you HAVE to be kidding??

How much actual WORK has Parros done outside of NHL?

People seem to think that going to Princeton and getting a degree in law/economics makes you immediately an expert? Wow.

Some of those owners are self-made billionaires, does anyone really believe that Parros with his degree knows more about economics/legal stuff simply because he has a degree?

Uhhuh.

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11-30-2012, 02:06 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Mika Silfverberg View Post
if i'm a player, i say let's do it. you can always decline their offer, or at least set up a vote on an offer. just because you go in to the meeting to see what happens doesn't mean that you're automatically going to agree with what they owners say.

besides, isn't it possible that the owners offer the players a better deal in the room because Fehr isn't there? give them better terms etc as a token of dropping Fehr as their leader?
i've been waiting for the players to offer concessions with Bettman's dismissal. He is definitely a big part of the problem.

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11-30-2012, 02:08 AM
  #79
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Bettman's offer is truly genius. It forces NHLPA to either sideline Fehr or make themselves look like unwilling to negotiate.

A win-win for the NHL.

Now, the question is can this meeting do any harm to negotiations? I don't think that's possible.

I'll say let's do it because IMHO it give us a better chance to see NHL this season.

NHLPA won't do any good to it's decertification idea if it refuses this, it makes the NHL's inevitable "decertification is just a negotiation tactic" -claim much more credible in the court room.

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11-30-2012, 02:12 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
I like Parros as much anyone here but you HAVE to be kidding??

How much actual WORK has Parros done outside of NHL?

People seem to think that going to Princeton and getting a degree in law/economics makes you immediately an expert? Wow.

Some of those owners are self-made billionaires, does anyone really believe that Parros with his degree knows more about economics/legal stuff simply because he has a degree?

Uhhuh.
I think it's kind of silly to discuss what these guys may or may not know. Some are self-made, some have inherited wealth, and it may be that with inherited wealth, they were shipped off to elite schools. Just like Parros going to Princeton didn't turn him into an expert, one could say that for people who just happen to be in a great academic environment (to which they wouldn't have had access without dad bankrolling them in). However, they probably learned enough to run or manage their family businesses, and in that sense, are more than likely a bit more adept with their figures. Another example is Mike Ilitch, who I don't believe ever attended any university. He certainly had a certain genius that allowed him to become a billionaire by selling pizzas-- and lots of them. I'm sure he learned about the ins and out of pro sports management, but it's also likely that he pays people with credentials in this field to fine tune things for him (including guys like Bettman who serve all the owners).

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11-30-2012, 02:12 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
I like Parros as much anyone here but you HAVE to be kidding??

How much actual WORK has Parros done outside of NHL?

People seem to think that going to Princeton and getting a degree in law/economics makes you immediately an expert? Wow.

Some of those owners are self-made billionaires, does anyone really believe that Parros with his degree knows more about economics/legal stuff simply because he has a degree?

Uhhuh.
Well lets just put one instance. I believe that Parros probably has a more intimate understanding of economics than say Mike Ilitch. A minor league baseball player that reinvested in a startup pizza franchise then surround himself with the right people for years to continue to make wise choices. My only point is most of these owners bank on people to inform them on these issues as well. Now obviously they are very successful people, but my point was to assume they are much smarter than every single player is also dangerous. More fortunate certainly and they deserve every penny, but they have these proposals spelled out to them to. My point was Parros understands what he is looking at just as much if not more than say an Ilitch.

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11-30-2012, 02:16 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Well lets just put one instance. I believe that Parros probably has a more intimate understanding of economics than say Mike Ilitch. A minor league baseball player that reinvested in a startup pizza franchise then surround himself with the right people for years to continue to make wise choices.
I just don't know what to say here...Parros with zero actual work experience has more intimate understanding of economics than a guy who created a billion-dollar pizza franchise?

Ilitch wasn't able to surround himself with right people from the start, that happens only when you have succeeded.

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11-30-2012, 02:23 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
I just don't know what to say here...Parros with zero actual work experience has more intimate understanding of economics than a guy who created a billion-dollar pizza franchise?

Ilitch wasn't able to surround himself with right people from the start, that happens only when you have succeeded.
I don't know what is your major, just because a guy has billion dollars is he better at it than you? Does he hire someone to do it for him? I mean lets not pretend economics is easy at this level, I know my brother who has a degree in it from Northwestern University never would. I don't think they will get as in depth so much as explain the basics to the players. But I stand by the fact my guess Parros could keep up with this conversation well. It is part of the reason Fehr halls him to everyone of these willingly.

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11-30-2012, 02:31 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I don't know what is your major, just because a guy has billion dollars is he better at it than you? Does he hire someone to do it for him? I mean lets not pretend economics is easy at this level, I know my brother who has a degree in it from Northwestern University never would. I don't think they will get as in depth so much as explain the basics to the players. But I stand by the fact my guess Parros could keep up with this conversation well. It is part of the reason Fehr halls him to everyone of these willingly.
I have a major in economics. I know for a fact that getting a degree didn't make me an expert in any way. Work experience is the only thing that can make you an expert.

The fact that you got billion dollars doesn't make you any better than the guy next to you but if you have built a business that netted you a billion dollars sure makes you better than a guy with zero actual work experience.

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11-30-2012, 02:33 AM
  #85
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Beyond what has been discussed so far in this thread there is another possibility. Bettman may be using this to diffuse PR/spin from Fehr's side as to how homogenous the owners group is. If the players see all owners towing the line, it would go a long ways towards dispelling a tact that the owners are fractured. Same has Fehr has done by inviting any and all to negotiations as well as his conference calls.

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11-30-2012, 02:36 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
I have a major in economics. I know for a fact that getting a degree didn't make me an expert in any way. Work experience is the only thing that can make you an expert.

The fact that you got billion dollars doesn't make you any better than the guy next to you but if you have built a business that netted you a billion dollars sure makes you better than a guy with zero actual work experience.

What if you didn't build that business, but your father or grandfather did?

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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Beyond what has been discussed so far in this thread there is another possibility. Bettman may be using this to diffuse PR/spin from Fehr's side as to how homogenous the owners group is. If the players see all owners towing the line, it would go a long ways towards dispelling a tact that the owners are fractured. Same has Fehr has done by inviting any and all to negotiations as well as his conference calls.

Plausible. That could backfire. If the players are avoiding decertification because they believe the owners are fractured, but then realize they're not, they know they must capitulate or decertify.

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11-30-2012, 02:42 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Beyond what has been discussed so far in this thread there is another possibility. Bettman may be using this to diffuse PR/spin from Fehr's side as to how homogenous the owners group is. If the players see all owners towing the line, it would go a long ways towards dispelling a tact that the owners are fractured. Same has Fehr has done by inviting any and all to negotiations as well as his conference calls.
Yeah I said that a little bit ago, I really agree with that. I think this could be huge to getting the Owners that are maybe breaking away to either be dismayed by the players turning this down or upset by what they actually witness. Of course it has the same potential to backfire, imagine they start compromising as Jacobs watches on in horror.

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What if you didn't build that business, but your father or grandfather did?
No doubt Wirtz and Jacobs have made some smart moves, but yes both those guys started in a different spot than most. Don't know about a lot of the other owners but they would be to examples of guys that inherited. Isn't Dolan another guy that is in this kind of situation?

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11-30-2012, 03:09 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
What if you didn't build that business, but your father or grandfather did?
Well if you inherited the business & money and didn't really do anything yourself, it's not nearly the same as building the business yourself.

In Ilitch's case, he built the business from the start.

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11-30-2012, 03:28 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
No doubt Wirtz and Jacobs have made some smart moves, but yes both those guys started in a different spot than most. Don't know about a lot of the other owners but they would be to examples of guys that inherited. Isn't Dolan another guy that is in this kind of situation?
Just for kicks, and off the top of my head:

Self-made: Ilitch, Vinik, Samueli, Melnyk?, Katz?, Leonsis, Karmanos, Wang, Pegula, Burkle?

Family: Jacobs, Wirtz, Gaglardi, Anschutz (although he turned millions into billions), Aquilini, Leipold (wife), Thomson, Chipman, Snider, Molson, Dolan, Kroenke/Walton

?? = Edwards, Sharks group, Nashville group, Panthers owners, Vanderbeek, CBJ?

N/A - Toronto

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11-30-2012, 03:35 AM
  #90
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I just can't see how the PA feels differently if they get in a room and see all the owners towing the hardliner's stance on matters.

They know it would be total bull***, as well.

The league is grasping at straws because decertification is just as an unknown for them as it is for the players. Theres risks on both sides and neither side would want to see it through.

It also probably means the make whole full dollar amount in the leagues offer is probably coming off the table after it's BoG's meeting and the league knows once that happens, the gap widens.

Thats probably what would be discussed in the meeting, things like better offers aren't coming and things will be coming off the table, not going on it. If anything, it could just galvanize the PA even more.

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11-30-2012, 04:07 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Just for kicks, and off the top of my head:

Self-made: Ilitch, Vinik, Samueli, Melnyk?, Katz?, Leonsis, Karmanos, Wang, Pegula, Burkle?

Family: Jacobs, Wirtz, Gaglardi, Anschutz (although he turned millions into billions), Aquilini, Leipold (wife), Thomson, Chipman, Snider, Molson, Dolan, Kroenke/Walton

?? = Edwards, Sharks group, Nashville group, Panthers owners, Vanderbeek, CBJ?

N/A - Toronto
The major share for the Sharks is the German guy. Self-made, SAP accounting software.

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11-30-2012, 05:13 AM
  #92
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Well Dan Cleary is in favor.

Per Mlive: http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....l#incart_river

Quote:
We're talking about that,'' Detroit Red Wings forward Danny Cleary told MLive.com on Thursday. Why not? Get some players in there, some different owners. They can get a feel of what we're thinking, we can get a feel of what they're thinking.

I won't know what to make of it until it happens, but it can't hurt.''
Quote:
Maybe we could agree on a few things and take it to leadership,'' Cleary said. It's something different. I think it's got some traction.''
Quote:
Cleary would like to be involved. Niklas Kronwall is the club's player representative, but Cleary has been heavily involved in union matters, attending more meetings than any other Red Wing.

You'd have to have players there that have experience (in labor talks), know what's going on,'' Cleary said.
The article does point out that people think the Owners need to be different.

Quote:
Outspoken player agent Allan Walsh tweeted, I'm not against an owners players meeting, would depend though on which owners allowed to attend. If same 4, waste of time.''
But we know one player is open to it, so take that for what it is worth.

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11-30-2012, 05:33 AM
  #93
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My first thoughts when I read the title of this thread is what would the format for such a meeting be?

The next thought was definitely an unequal power relationship differential would favour the owners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(communication)
hierarchical power
http://www.psinetwork.org/uploads/83...0for%20PSI.pdf a long read and interesting all throughout. Especially page 30 on " power tends to reduce the awareness of others",

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11-30-2012, 05:57 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I know these Owners by and large are smarter but there is a real good chance Parros will be the smartest man in the room in terms of labor law and economics. You think the Owners are experts here? They have made a billion dollars creating departments and hiring lawyers to handle this stuff for them as well. Bettman wasn't hired for his hockey prowess, but his accomplishments as a lawyer. It cuts both ways, just because you made a billion dollars doesn't mean you are vastly superior to understanding a talk. This is mostly to clear the air. But for instance Parros wrote his senior thesis on West Coast longshoremen's labor dispute in this subject. Of course he has sat in on every meeting from what I can tell so maybe he has to leave the room too.
I don't know how smart you think these owners are as businessman, but they purchased notoriously money losing rackets (sports teams.. only a few teams can manage a profit) and then complain that they are losing money. They play a shell game most of them with their businesses, moving money around, showing a profit here, a loss there, writing the loss of as a deduction, holding city, provincial and state governments hostage for tax breaks, exemptions and blah blah blah...

Are you telling me that if Jamision manages to find the funds to secure his purchase of the Coyotes he's finished sucking the lifeblood out of the city of Glendale? Not a chance.


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11-30-2012, 06:19 AM
  #95
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I like Shane Doan's idea of bringing GM's into the mix. Those are the true hockey minds.

As for what would happen in it. One would hope each side would go through each others latest proposals point by point and explain their reasons for wanting such things in it. Establish where the sticking points are(linkage/contractual rights) etc. and go from there.

If the owners go into it from the perspective of "breaking the players from Fehr's spell", it will go absolutely no where.

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11-30-2012, 06:30 AM
  #96
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Would be something... not gonna happen though

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11-30-2012, 06:55 AM
  #97
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Really don't see why the players should be afraid to do this. No deal will nor should be had directly from such a meeting. And if Fehr doesn't want it, the players should simply ask him, Why? Whatever the players hear directly from the owners, they can still take that back to Fehr and say: 'This is what they told us.' Fehr then still can spin it whichever way he wants. I mean really, what's the difference? The players being spun tails by Fehr or by the owners; at least this way they get to hear the owners version directly as well as Fehr's version directly. I'm sure it's not the first time owners and players would have spoken directly to each other in one context or another.


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11-30-2012, 06:59 AM
  #98
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Never said that any agreement should be immediately reached within such a meeting. But it's not a bad idea that the two actual sides get to hear each other out directly without the go-betweens.
I agree.

Everyone has discussed the reason why this should not happen, and i fully understand, but at this point i see it as one of the few things that might lead to progress. If the players can ask which owners they want present (no jacobs), and they can also send the players in with some legal counsel, who act only to interpret and help explain things or offer suggestions to players, something constructive might come out of this.

Obviously nobody believes a deal will come directly from the meeting, but it may change some attitudes or lead to some common ground.

I dont know what else will.


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11-30-2012, 07:32 AM
  #99
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I think that this is a good move in the sense that it gets the "enemy" out of the room in both Bettman and Fehr.

However, if Jacobs is still in the room, then this meeting is going nowhere fast.

I don't think for a second that anyone from the PA side is scared to do this. I also don't think for one second that this is anything more than a ploy by the NHL to both see how unified the Union is and to show how unified the owners are.

general thought? it will turn out to be a waste of time just like the mediation was.

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11-30-2012, 07:38 AM
  #100
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Well thats the kicker, if jacobs is allowed they are dealing with the same figurehead their dealing with now (supposedly). According to Lebrun bettman suggested a select group of players and owners. That would likely insinuate no jacobs from the PA side. And again the PA should ask for some legal counsel to be by the players side during it since they will be more out of their element.

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