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12'-13' Draft Thread: Drouin & Monahan are LR's pick, what are yours?

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11-29-2012, 04:24 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
MacKinnon is #1 right now, but we'll get a really good look at Barkov and Jones at the WJC as well. They'll fight for #1 on the big stage.
And if a team passes on Mackinnon this year at #1, I would say they will run the risk of looking foolish for the next decade and on. Jones is clearly #2 until we see Barkov outside the Finnish league. I think even his biggest fan here FInnishKulemin would agree on this.

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11-29-2012, 04:27 PM
  #602
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First of all there is a big difference in offensive talent between Pulock and Nurse at the moment.

The only thing in Nurse's game that is an asset compared to Pulock is his aggressiveness. But that is no biggie, is it?

Percy has little physical traits in his game, certainly less than Pulock. Do You need to be physical to be able to play a sound defensive game?

Brandon is awful this year, Pulock is playing with a journeyman D man this year, he is the captain of his team as a 18 year old, he plays for a medicore team to be nice about it. He's +14 this year at better than a PPG average. He was +33 last year. He has one of the best shots to come out of junior in quite some time. Combined that with a 211lbs frame, and elite hockey sense.

This is what he brings to the table that Nurse can't at the moment.
You don't need size, aggressiveness, and a mean streak to play a sound defensive game, but they're certainly going to be a huge help.

Do you need a big shot to play a sound defensive game? I don't think so.

Given what we have on the back end already (Phaneuf, Rielly, Gardiner, Blacker), we're more in need of Nurse or Morrisy, and what they bring to the table.

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11-29-2012, 04:30 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
And if a team passes on Mackinnon this year at #1, I would say they will run the risk of looking foolish for the next decade and on. Jones is clearly #2 until we see Barkov outside the Finnish league. I think even his biggest fan here FInnishKulemin would agree on this.
Jones isn't clearly #2.

Barkov has shone on the international stage already, so what are you on about here?

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11-29-2012, 04:33 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
You don't need size, aggressiveness, and a mean streak to play a sound defensive game, but they're certainly going to be a huge help.

Do you need a big shot to play a sound defensive game? I don't think so.

Given what we have on the back end already (Phaneuf, Rielly, Gardiner, Blacker), we're more in need of Nurse or Morrisy, and what they bring to the table.
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Quote:
Do you need a big shot to play a sound defensive game? I don't think so.
No, but it does help if you want to play a sound offensive game.

You are making the mistake you did last year again, you draft the BPA. Again I'll use the Cirella / Macinnis example. I would never draft Cirella for the Leafs because we supposedly need size on the D when a unique offensive defenceman is available in Macinnis. Especially when that offensive defenceman can play Defence pretty well also.


Last edited by crump: 11-29-2012 at 05:22 PM.
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11-29-2012, 04:38 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Ernie, I love chatting with you. You always say things that make me chuckle.



No, but it does help if you want to play a sound offensive game.

You are making the mistake you did last year again, you draft the BPA. Again I'll use the Cirella / Macinnis example. I would never draft Cirella for the Leafs because we supposedly need size on the D when a unique offensive defenceman is available in Macinnis. Especially when that offensive defenceman can play Defence pretty well also.
And there are more than a few conflicting reports that Pulock would be BPA over either of Nurse or Morrisy right now, so what's your point?

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Last edited by crump: 11-29-2012 at 05:22 PM.
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11-29-2012, 04:41 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Jones isn't clearly #2.

Barkov has shone on the international stage already, so what are you on about here?
He's #2 on many lists, some as high as #1.

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11-29-2012, 04:47 PM
  #607
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He's #2 on many lists, some as high as #1.
And until he shines internationally, there will be questions unanswered regarding the 3 players at the top.

We'll know who fits where after the WJC.

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11-29-2012, 05:09 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
And if a team passes on Mackinnon this year at #1, I would say they will run the risk of looking foolish for the next decade and on. Jones is clearly #2 until we see Barkov outside the Finnish league. I think even his biggest fan here FInnishKulemin would agree on this.
Not on that I don't, but at this point in time I would agree with you on the MacKinnon part. He's the number one guy pretty solidly although the whispers are starting about Barkov and Jones challenging him.

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11-29-2012, 05:49 PM
  #609
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Not on that I don't, but at this point in time I would agree with you on the MacKinnon part. He's the number one guy pretty solidly although the whispers are starting about Barkov and Jones challenging him.
I still have Mackinnon as #1 by a good margin, we will see later in the year but I suspect just as with Hall and Yakupov it will play out this way. He's going to have to play bad or Jones and Barkov will have to play out of their skates to knock him off #1 IMO.

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11-29-2012, 05:51 PM
  #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Mod



No, but it does help if you want to play a sound offensive game.

You are making the mistake you did last year again, you draft the BPA. Again I'll use the Cirella / Macinnis example. I would never draft Cirella for the Leafs because we supposedly need size on the D when a unique offensive defenceman is available in Macinnis. Especially when that offensive defenceman can play Defence pretty well also.
It hurts my head how stupid it is to keep referring to Nurse as Cirella and Pulock as Macinnis. That would be like picking players at the draft based on their player comparisons. They aren't the same players at all, stop using this as an example. I could easily do the same by comparing Nurse to Pronger and Pulock to McCabe. It isn't at all fair to the players and means nothing in this argument.

Also fun fact: Pulock was a 7th rounder to the WHL, Nurse was 3rd overall to the OHL.

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11-29-2012, 05:53 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I still have Mackinnon as #1 by a good margin, we will see later in the year but I suspect just as with Hall and Yakupov it will play out this way. He's going to have to play bad or Jones and Barkov will have to play out of their skates to knock him off #1 IMO.
Going in to the WJC, he certainly sits atop the rankings. We do, however, know how much weight pundits put on performances at this tournament. Each of these 3 will be playing against elite, older competition. I'm not going to watch the tournament with a set list in my head.

I think I'll wipe the slates clean for it, and judge based on what we can tangibly see. If I go in seeing what I WANT to see, i've already discounted my evaluation. I'm excited, and hope all 3 give a great run for #1.

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11-29-2012, 06:32 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Going in to the WJC, he certainly sits atop the rankings. We do, however, know how much weight pundits put on performances at this tournament. Each of these 3 will be playing against elite, older competition. I'm not going to watch the tournament with a set list in my head.

I think I'll wipe the slates clean for it, and judge based on what we can tangibly see. If I go in seeing what I WANT to see, i've already discounted my evaluation. I'm excited, and hope all 3 give a great run for #1.
And this is a perfect example of how the TSN has succeeded in blowing the WJC ridiculously out of proportion. The very idea that 2 weeks of glorified shinny against inferior competition outside of 2-3 games on a different sized rink can outweigh months of structured tough hockey is ludicrous.

Take a look back through past teams and see how many guys excelled in this tournament and never amounted to anything in the NHL. It's a fun tournament and great to watch but it's not the be all and end all for any of these guys.

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11-29-2012, 06:59 PM
  #613
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Of course not, but it's not irrelevant, and it does provide draft elligible players the opportunity to measure themselves against elite competition.

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11-30-2012, 02:08 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Of course not, but it's not irrelevant, and it does provide draft elligible players the opportunity to measure themselves against elite competition.
The competition at the world juniors will be less for some players. Barkov in the Sm-liga, lindholm in the SEL and Nicushkin in the KHL are all examples that immediately jump to mind.

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11-30-2012, 03:16 AM
  #615
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The competition at the world juniors will be less for some players. Barkov in the Sm-liga, lindholm in the SEL and Nicushkin in the KHL are all examples that immediately jump to mind.
All the more reason they should shine, don't you think?

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11-30-2012, 06:54 AM
  #616
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All the more reason they should shine, don't you think?
Maybe but 3 or 4 games that actually matter is a ridiculously small sample size to draw any conclusions over.

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11-30-2012, 07:51 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by LeafDangler View Post
Maybe but 3 or 4 games that actually matter is a ridiculously small sample size to draw any conclusions over.
Although it is a small sample size, there are many conclusions that can be made. These games are huge for scouts/players. It shows them whether or not they can step up their game in big games. If a highly ranked player doesn't shine against their peers it can certainly hurt their rankings.

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11-30-2012, 08:09 AM
  #618
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Although it is a small sample size, there are many conclusions that can be made. These games are huge for scouts/players. It shows them whether or not they can step up their game in big games. If a highly ranked player doesn't shine against their peers it can certainly hurt their rankings.
That's the problem. You really can't. For every Eberle there is 2 or 3 Coglianios. It's a great opportunity to gather all the guys in one place but I'd put way more stock in regular season, and extended playoff appearances.

I believe intelligent scouts do the same. It's just not a great barometer of NHL success.

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11-30-2012, 08:47 AM
  #619
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Do be somewhat cautious, and watch these other teams plays against teams other than Canada. Remember how effective Malkin and Ovechkin were against Team Canada?

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11-30-2012, 09:07 AM
  #620
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Originally Posted by LeafDangler View Post
That's the problem. You really can't. For every Eberle there is 2 or 3 Coglianios. It's a great opportunity to gather all the guys in one place but I'd put way more stock in regular season, and extended playoff appearances.

I believe intelligent scouts do the same. It's just not a great barometer of NHL success.
Nobody is saying the contrary to your argument...

What everyone is saying, is that you can put more stock in it than you currently are. The draft elligible players are facing off with their draft group, and those from the last 2-3 years. It's s round robin, with an elimination stage, and a medal game (if you get that far). It is enough to measure players' progress since the Ivan Hlinka, when they last played against their age group, and enough to get a look at how they stack up against the crowd.

Saying the WJC is hardly significant is wrong, because we've seen the opposite, year after year. The reality is, scouts and analysts DO use it as a measuring stick, whether someone on a message board thinks so, or not.

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11-30-2012, 09:30 AM
  #621
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It was a good discussion until that crappy argument from authority.

Last year Nail Yakupov played 7 games for Russia. 3 against Swi, Lat and Slov (inferior talent). 4 against Swe, Cze, Can and Swe. He finished with 0 goals, 9 assists, + 4 and a silver medal. He was later drafted #1 overall and is the consensus best player from the draft to this day.

What did that WJC performance really tell us about Nail Yakupov as an elite NHL forward and what implications did it have on his draft stock? I would argue very little in comparison to his seasons with Sarnia. Ryan Murray is also an excellent example as well.

Toting the hype from NHL analysts with a vested interest in pimping the WJC carries very little weight with me and I would posit that neither you nor I really knows much at all about what emphasis scouts put on the WJC.


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11-30-2012, 09:53 AM
  #622
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Originally Posted by LeafDangler View Post
It was a good discussion until that crappy argument from authority.

Last year Nail Yakupov played 7 games for Russia. 3 against Swi, Lat and Slov (inferior talent). 4 against Swe, Cze, Can and Swe. He finished with 0 goals, 9 assists, + 4 and a silver medal. He was later drafted #1 overall and is the consensus best player from the draft to this day.

What did that WJC performance really tell us about Nail Yakupov as an elite NHL forward and what implications did it have on his draft stock? I would argue very little in comparison to his seasons with Sarnia. Ryan Murray is also an excellent example as well.

Toting the hype from NHL analysts with a vested interest in pimping the WJC carries very little weight with me and I would posit that neither you nor I really knows much at all about what emphasis scouts put on the WJC.
Ever been present at an international hockey event?

Like A WJC, Ivan Hlinka, or U-18/17 WC?

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11-30-2012, 09:57 AM
  #623
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And this is a perfect example of how the TSN has succeeded in blowing the WJC ridiculously out of proportion. The very idea that 2 weeks of glorified shinny against inferior competition outside of 2-3 games on a different sized rink can outweigh months of structured tough hockey is ludicrous.

Take a look back through past teams and see how many guys excelled in this tournament and never amounted to anything in the NHL. It's a fun tournament and great to watch but it's not the be all and end all for any of these guys.
You're kidding right? Ofcourse the WJC is a high profile event that scouts and GM's attend and rank highly in their player evaluation for the upcoming draft.

It is one important factor to a prospect's draft stock, just as regular season play, playoffs, and prospects games.

But to dismiss it so throughly as you have in this post, is truly ludicrous.

From your post, it infers you give it no credence at all.

BTW Just because TSN is sucessful in it's ratings for the tournament does not take away from the prospects play in the tournament. I assure you they all know this is an opportunity to make a case for themselves in the upcoming draft.

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11-30-2012, 10:00 AM
  #624
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Ever been present at an international hockey event?

Like A WJC, Ivan Hlinka, or U-18/17 WC?
Yep, WJC in Halifax. I was too young at the time to take a lot from it though.

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11-30-2012, 10:02 AM
  #625
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You're kidding right? Ofcourse the WJC is a high profile event that scouts and GM's attend and rank highly in their player evaluation for the upcoming draft.

It is one important factor to a prospect's draft stock, just as regular season play, playoffs, and prospects games.

But to dismiss it so throughly as you have in this post, is truly ludicrous.

From your post, it infers you give it no credence at all.
If you attend one of these events (WJC in Buffalo, U-17 WC's in Windsor), there are a ton of scouts, and even GM's who make the trip to see these kids play. Scouts are making notes, discussing, etc.

Scouts aren't mystical creatures, like unicorns. They're average people, who are really approachable, and willing to talk hockey, usually. Try it sometime LD.

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