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Owner-Player meeting only, no Bettman or Fehr (UPD: 12/4 in NYC)
LOL. This has absolutely nothing to do with disliking DF. If you do not think that DF is spinning what the NHL is saying, then you need to wake up and smell the coffee. He absolutely is spinning it. That doesn't mean he's lying, just putting his twist on things, so that the players get his message, and see things his way. Why do you think the NHL posted their 2nd offer on their website? It wasn't because they were working on "winning" the PR campaign.
You (the NHL) can offer me (the PA) a gradual reduced split (54%, 51%, 50%, 50% over a 7 yr deal) and say how the players shouldn't take an escrow hit. And when I take that back to the players, I simply point out that the NHL has asked us to give up X billion dollars (which DF has done MANY times). Instead of him pointing out the good things, he simply points out the negative things. Now is that not him spinning the message? Of course it is.
But the end result is that the players ARE being asked to give up X billion dollars IN ADDITION TO CONTRACTING ISSUES.
I don't look at that as spin, I look at that as highlighting the IMPORTANT aspect of the offer and not being distracted by what you call good things.
The fact is that while these players are not economic majors, they know if they are getting taken to the cleaners and each and every NHL offers looks to do that.
Now, you may like to call Fehr pointing out the important aspects of a deal to players as being "spin" I call that Fehr doing his job and not letting the Union get distracted.
The facts are clearly this:
The NHL wants an immediate reduction in salary paid out to players AND they want to cut the contracting issues.
If DF is conveying that message to his Union, that is not spin, that is a Union Leader doing his job.
A player who's a Princeton grad was unable to answer the most basic questions presented to him a couple of days ago in a sports panel discussion.
Of course, this player may have purposefully ignored all communications from his PA Exec and therefore had no idea about the positions he was supposed to take...
That Princeton grad studied Psychology. Yes, it's impressive that some of these players have graduated from very well known institutions, however being a Princeton graduate doesn't mean that you are knowledgeable about EVERYTHING. As far as I know, George Parros is the only player in the league that has a degree from an impressive university AND his major is relevant enough to be applied to this situation. However, his major doesn't make him a guru on how to negotiate but if I had to choose players that I'm certain can understand the economics and the numbers without someone explaining it to him, George Parros would be the only name I could come up with.
Bettman doesnt actually want the players to meet with the owners. He wants the players to break. Some (Hamrlik's) will say they should meet and some (Toews's) will say they don't want too.
He is splitting the players without ever actually needing the meeting to take place. This will hopefull show which players aren't fans of Fehr.
That Princeton grad studied Psychology. Yes, it's impressive that some of these players have graduated from very well known institutions, however being a Princeton graduate doesn't mean that you are knowledgeable about EVERYTHING. As far as I know, George Parros is the only player in the league that has a degree from an impressive university AND his major is relevant enough to be applied to this situation. However, his major doesn't make him a guru on how to negotiate but if I had to choose players that I'm certain can understand the economics and the numbers without someone explaining it to him, George Parros would be the only name I could come up with.
Well, Mathieu Darche has a Commerce degree in Marketing and International Business (per Wiki) from McGill, and he actually won the CIS’s Outsatnding Student-Athlete award. So I’d imagine he’s fairly knowledgeable.
Bettman doesnt actually want the players to meet with the owners. He wants the players to break. Some (Hamrlik's) will say they should meet and some (Toews's) will say they don't want too.
He is splitting the players without ever actually needing the meeting to take place. This will hopefull show which players aren't fans of Fehr.
Point Gary.
What are you talking about? Gary's not doing that; he has no actual power.
Well, Mathieu Darche has a Commerce degree in Marketing and International Business (per Wiki) from McGill, and he actually won the CIS’s Outsatnding Student-Athlete award. So I’d imagine he’s fairly knowledgeable.
Based on his tweets, you wouldn't think the guy is all that smart. I didn't know that about his background and while I still wouldn't think that it's as advantageous as Parros' economics background, Darche's background should certainly help him understand the numbers better than most.
Bettman doesnt actually want the players to meet with the owners. He wants the players to break. Some (Hamrlik's) will say they should meet and some (Toews's) will say they don't want too.
He is splitting the players without ever actually needing the meeting to take place. This will hopefull show which players aren't fans of Fehr.
Point Gary.
Exactly.
This is basically just a potshot by Bettman. There's no risk involved from his side, and for all he knows it might cause a little more grumbling by players behind the scenes.
It's purely brinksmanship at this point. Negotiations aren't active, so there's not much else to do but score cheap points.
Really don't see why the players should be afraid to do this. No deal will nor should be had directly from such a meeting. And if Fehr doesn't want it, the players should simply ask him, Why? Whatever the players hear directly from the owners, they can still take that back to Fehr and say: 'This is what they told us.' Fehr then still can spin it whichever way he wants. I mean really, what's the difference? The players being spun tails by Fehr or by the owners; at least this way they get to hear the owners version directly as well as Fehr's version directly. I'm sure it's not the first time owners and players would have spoken directly to each other in one context or another.
How hard is it to understand that if a player wanted to know how the owners felt at any time, all they had to do was show up to the meeting when the two sides got together.
If each and every one of the union body wanted to attend a negotiating session, Fehr would make the arrangments to accomodate that. Not likely that that would happen, but reduce that to 3 players per team, that's still 90 players, Fehr would make the appropriate accomodations be that a Ballroom in one of the large hotels in the city or setting the players up in a room and having them attend via conference call.
At no point in time has ANY player been discouraged from attending a meeting so if there was the SLIGHTEST inkling that the guys were not being updated with the proper information we would have heard about that a long time ago.
What alot of posters here fail to understand is that this "spinning" and mis-information and secracy was all part of the previous union leadership (Goodenow and Saskin) and to re-establish the unions trust in the leadership, Fehr has had to be more open with both the negotiations and with the communication back to the Union body.
Bettman doesnt actually want the players to meet with the owners. He wants the players to break. Some (Hamrlik's) will say they should meet and some (Toews's) will say they don't want too.
He is splitting the players without ever actually needing the meeting to take place. This will hopefull show which players aren't fans of Fehr.
Guys wanting to get back on the ice for purely financial reasons will say they should take the meeting.
Do you really think 700+ men are wanting to lose the whole season? This should cause some turbulence within the NHLPA. Even if just a few players speak out slow cracks within the armour will start to show.
In 5 days the NHL will cancel another 2 weeks. After that 1 more cancellation and the season is over. It's gut check time and a few of the 'soft' liners will break.
It's kinda funny that we say the players can't possibly understand the negotiations since they don't have certain degrees. Most people here feel like they have a very good handle on the situation (or at least enough to share very strong opinions on the matter) and I doubt that a large percentage of those individuals have advanced business degrees.
This is basically just a potshot by Bettman. There's no risk involved from his side, and for all he knows it might cause a little more grumbling by players behind the scenes.
It's purely brinksmanship at this point. Negotiations aren't active, so there's not much else to do but score cheap points.
If the PA refuses to do this, couldn't the league use this in court to counter a disclaimer of interest or decertification? It wouldn't prevent the players from filing suits but it could help in their favour of getting a ruling that the lockout will be considered legal even if the PA disbands (though precendence set by the NFL and NBA would suggest that the NHL would get this ruling anyway). A refusal would lend to the league's argument that disclaimer of interest/decertification is just a bargaining tactic used to threaten the league through legal means, afterall, if the players didn't want to want to talk without their union head in the room, why are they dissolving the union all together and giving up that right to be represented collectively by that same guy?
At no point in time has ANY player been discouraged from attending a meeting so if there was the SLIGHTEST inkling that the guys were not being updated with the proper information we would have heard about that a long time ago.
I'd think that there's a difference between "attending" and speaking directly to the owners themselves, without Fehr or Bettman jumping into the conversation.
Guys wanting to get back on the ice for purely financial reasons will say they should take the meeting.
Do you really think 700+ men are wanting to lose the whole season? This should cause some turbulence within the NHLPA. Even if just a few players speak out slow cracks within the armour will start to show.
In 5 days the NHL will cancel another 2 weeks. After that 1 more cancellation and the season is over. It's gut check time and a few of the 'soft' liners will break.
The owners will continue to say why this is a good deal for the players, the players will continue to say that they do not want their contracting rights adjusted after agreeing to the 50/50 reduction and another cut in salary 7 years after taking a cut in salary in the previous CBA.
No, I do not think that all 700 players want to lose the season, but if you asked me to put a % on it. I would say that there are MORE owners willing to start the season based on the players last proposal than there are players willing to play under the owners last proposal.
I'd say that close to 70% of the owners in the league are willing to accept the PA's last proposal.
I would venture a guess that it's under 10% of the players that are willing to play under the owners last proposal.
So yes, there are going to be some players that will grumble after this meeting. There are players that are not one bit happy with the PA right now. It's a very veeeery small group.
The thought, and those thinking it, that this will somehow splinter the PA is out to lunch.
I'd think that there's a difference between "attending" and speaking directly to the owners themselves, without Fehr or Bettman jumping into the conversation.
but your point was that DF was putting a spin on the message from the owners.
The fact is, the players can attend, hear from the owners, partake in the discussion and ask any question they want.
It's not a matter of you can attend to listen, but don't speak.
Fehr wants to get a deal done.
He has not put a muzzle on the players the way Bettman has on the owners.
Why is that?
If a player attends a meeting, he is also PART of that meeting.
but your point was that DF was putting a spin on the message from the owners.
The fact is, the players can attend, hear from the owners, partake in the discussion and ask any question they want.
It's not a matter of you can attend to listen, but don't speak.
Fehr wants to get a deal done.
He has not put a muzzle on the players the way Bettman has on the owners.
Why is that?
If a player attends a meeting, he is also PART of that meeting.
Sure Fehr wants to get a deal done! But he wants a deal that keeps or makes his reputation that he can get done for the players even more than some of them may expect. He wants to pull off the "win", even though it could cost the game. Of course I'm perhaps being overly negative, but he is a union negotiator, not a hockey-first guy.
If I were a player I'd consider trying a direct meeting with the owners. Perhaps however I'd give the players the option of choosing which owners they DO NOT want at the bargaining table.
The thought, and those thinking it, that this will somehow splinter the PA is out to lunch.
We're all entitled to our own opinions.
I'm pro-reality. Don't give a rats *** about the players or the owners - sick of them both to be honest.
Eventually the PA will splinter. Maybe next week - maybe next summer. And they will never recover their lost earnings. Count on it.
"Fair" or "not fair" is not part of the equation here. Life isn't fair in the "real world". These self-entitled NHL players will eventually "get it". At least the smart ones.
I have a major in economics. I know for a fact that getting a degree didn't make me an expert in any way. Work experience is the only thing that can make you an expert.
The fact that you got billion dollars doesn't make you any better than the guy next to you but if you have built a business that netted you a billion dollars sure makes you better than a guy with zero actual work experience.
That is not entirely accurate. Work experience is a helpful tool however, it is one among the many that have proven viable. There are plenty of people with little to no higher education in the classical sense, yet have amassed a fortune through self-taught research and hiring the right people to accommodate their weaknesses.
