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Old
11-30-2012, 12:28 AM
  #76
Moore Money
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
Are you serious? Higgins and Hansen aren't even close to Filppula and Helm.
I agree Filppula is much better than Higgins but Hansen and Helm aren't all that different. I would give Hansen the edge as it stands now.

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Old
11-30-2012, 12:34 AM
  #77
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Theres no way i trade schneider unless its a huge overpayment.

He is the real deal. A goalie might not have a lot of value in the trade market.

But a great goalie has a bigger impact on the game than even a star forward.


Yes filppula is better than higgins. But with that said, I wouldn't trade edler for that package.

And I dislike Edler, absolutely find him overrated. But at a bare minimum he is still a 50 pt dman.

Who knows if we find him a steady dman, maybe he gets more confidence and shakes off those ugly moments in his game.

I would only trade edler for a 1st line forward. I know he is an upcoming UFA. maybe sign and trade?

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11-30-2012, 12:41 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
Just a canucks fan looking at the wings depth chart.

I don't know why wings fans are so high on Filppula. Actually I've even seen a lot of wings fans who would rather trade Franzen than Filppula.

Franzen for a few years there was probably the deadliest playoff sniper. He has a rare combination of size and hands where he can score in close and from far.

I know filppula has decent skill and probably puts up decent point production.

But you already have Datsyuk/ Zetterberg. Both are not that old. And you also have Nyquist who looks like he will be better than filppula.

Thats 3 high skilled smallish players with vision. Wouldn't you rather keep a bigger forward like franzen and trade filppula?

And I haven't even name guys like tatar / ferraro.
I don't really want to trade either. It is time we roll some kids and play things out in my opinion. On Filppula he has a bunch of talent, been getting hyped by Selanne and the Wings since he was drafted. When his role changed his numbers shot up and he is a very versatile guy. Did hint at this before being lost to injury even on the third line a couple years back. He has a lot of talent and is finally shooting the puck more.

You have to give something to get something so those two need to be trotted out in most trade offers. That doesn't mean everyone is desperate to move them.

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11-30-2012, 12:44 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
And I dislike Edler, absolutely find him overrated. But at a bare minimum he is still a 50 pt dman.


What?

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11-30-2012, 12:49 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post


What?
fine 49 if that makes you feel better

so thats back to back years hes scored at about a 50 pts pace.

and the year before he had 42.

So 40- 50 pt dman, how does that change my point?

Less than 20 dmen scored over 40 pts last year.

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11-30-2012, 12:53 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
fine 49 if that makes you feel better

so thats back to back years hes scored at about a 50 pts pace.

and the year before he had 42.

So 40- 50 pt dman, how does that change my point?

Less than 20 dmen scored over 40 pts last year.
I bolded two specific words for a reason.

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11-30-2012, 12:53 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I don't really want to trade either. It is time we roll some kids and play things out in my opinion. On Filppula he has a bunch of talent, been getting hyped by Selanne and the Wings since he was drafted. When his role changed his numbers shot up and he is a very versatile guy. Did hint at this before being lost to injury even on the third line a couple years back. He has a lot of talent and is finally shooting the puck more.

You have to give something to get something so those two need to be trotted out in most trade offers. That doesn't mean everyone is desperate to move them.
I've watched enough hockey to know how good flippula is.

But say you keep flippula and move franzen. Datsyuk/ Zetterberg / Flippula / Nyquist

thats 4 smallish guys in the top 6, and all four are better passers.

Makes more sense to keep the big Franzen that can score, especially playoff proven.

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11-30-2012, 12:56 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
I bolded two specific words for a reason.
And my point is, even if he doesn't improve his defensive game, at his current level of play he is at least a top tier offensive dman.


If you want to nitpick 50 pts, 45 pts, whatever.

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11-30-2012, 12:57 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
And my point is, even if he doesn't improve his defensive game, at his current level of play he is at least a top tier offensive dman.


If you want to nitpick 50 pts, 45 pts, whatever.
I have no problem saying he's a good offensive defender, I just caught the point where he's a "Bare minimum" 50 point guy even though he's never hit that mark.

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11-30-2012, 01:00 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
I have no problem saying he's a good offensive defender, I just caught the point where he's a "Bare minimum" 50 point guy even though he's never hit that mark.
like I said if you want to nitpick go for it. the point was not to say that he will hit 50.
put 45 in there, and my point is the same. He is a high end offensive dman.

Still wouldn't trade edler for that package.

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11-30-2012, 01:04 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
like I said if you want to nitpick go for it. the point was not to say that he will hit 50.
put 45 in there, and my point is the same. He is a high end offensive dman.

Still wouldn't trade edler for that package.
Neither team would with two of the three hitting UFA next year.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:14 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Neither team would with two of the three hitting UFA next year.

I think the wings should consider it.

- Lidstrom retiring leaves a huge hole on defense.

- Nyquist is ready for nhl action and can replace filppula's offense.

- Helm is an elite bottom 6 player, and a fan favourite. But as much as it hurts to lose him, 3rd line players can be acquired.

- I like the chances Detroit has at signing Edler. Winning organization, lots of swedish players, and cap space.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:15 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
To Detroit: Edler
To Vancouver: Filppula, Helm
No. Well, maybe for Hamhuis.

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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think Hansen-Helm is a fair comparison. The Canucks don't have anyone who compares to Filppula though. We definitely could use a player like him, though.
I think the original Kesler/Hansen comparison was about as close a it comes. Kesler and Helm each having a slight edge.

Filppula actually led the Wings in ESP with 54, and tied H.Sedin, who led the Canucks. Filppula only posted 13 PPP. Kesler, OTOH, put up 28 ESP and 19 PPP. A large part of this discrepancy is the different roles they had at ES and PP; Filppula played top-six as a winger, with a reduced defensive responsibility from previous seasons. From 2007-08 through 2010-11 he averaged 71 GP (missed 44 games) and 30 ESP, splitting time between the second and third lines. Kesler averaged 82GP (missed 2 games) and 37 ESP. Both averaged approximately 14 minutes per game at ES over the span and in individual years. The biggest difference in their total numbers came from Kesler playing significantly more on the PP; specifically on the first unit with the Sedins rather than on the second unit or being an "alternate option" as Filppula was in 2008-09, when he "second" unit was the ridiculous Franzen-Zetterberg-Hudler-Kronwall-Samuelsson. As many as four of whom might be on the FIRST unit this upcoming(?) season. Whenever that is.

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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
Just a canucks fan looking at the wings depth chart.

I don't know why wings fans are so high on Filppula. Actually I've even seen a lot of wings fans who would rather trade Franzen than Filppula.
Because Filppula is a much better and younger player, while Franzen is a lazy floater who has the value to be a significant piece in a deal to get back a top-pairing defenseman. Ye, he's a valuable scorer. But Detroit has several skilled young forwards, and dropping a guy like Tatar or Nyquist into Franzen's ice time and adding a guy like Bouwmeester, Edler, Hamhuis, Enstrom, Yandle, etc. would make the Wings a much better team than just keeping Franzen around.

Quote:
Franzen for a few years there was probably the deadliest playoff sniper. He has a rare combination of size and hands where he can score in close and from far.
Second-deadliest. Zetterberg>Franzen. And Franzen hasn't shown that beast mode since 2010.

Quote:
I know filppula has decent skill and probably puts up decent point production.

But you already have Datsyuk/ Zetterberg. Both are not that old. And you also have Nyquist who looks like he will be better than filppula.

Thats 3 high skilled smallish players with vision. Wouldn't you rather keep a bigger forward like franzen and trade filppula?
If Franzen played the physical game he did when he entered the game, yes. And the defensive game he played. But now, he plays Brett Hull's game, except he's not nearly as good at it. You can't use his size by putting him in front of the net; he's not good at screening/rebounds/etc. He's apparently forgotten how or doesn't care about playing defense. And the hitting? Jiri Hudler plays a grittier game; that should tell you something. For all of the crap I give Todd Bertuzzi about his uselessness, at least he'll go out and hit every now and then, even if he thinks he's still a skill player and doesn't hit like a grinder.

But ultimately? I'd rather trade Franzen+Quincey/Kindl+1st to get Bouwmeester+Glencross. Or maybe Franzen+Quincey for Pitkanen/Gleason+Larose. Perhaps add a mid-round pick to the second one depending on the defenseman.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:20 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
I think the wings should consider it.

- Lidstrom retiring leaves a huge hole on defense.

- Nyquist is ready for nhl action and can replace filppula's offense.

- Helm is an elite bottom 6 player, and a fan favourite. But as much as it hurts to lose him, 3rd line players can be acquired.

- I like the chances Detroit has at signing Edler. Winning organization, lots of swedish players, and cap space.
- The first one we know, but people also need to stop pretending this is prime Lidstrom. It will hurt but you got to do what you got to do, this was eventually going to happen. See what they have, panic moves help nobody.

-Nyquist is there to replace Hudler, well do better than Hudler really. He isn't counted on to replace Filppula, he is going to make the top 6 better and has great chemistry with Datsyuk.

-Helm brings a lot of speed to the lineup, and is a good pk guy on a team that if they don't want to play Datsyuk and Zetterberg huge minutes there needs him badly. Sure you can find some nice depth players but that doesn't mean you have to part with your own. When you find you like and is great in your system and huge for your team you hold on to that guy, see Draper.

-Great I am glad he would consider re-signing here, we hope he sign here on July 1st for a nice contract and no assets.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:25 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
- The first one we know, but people also need to stop pretending this is prime Lidstrom. It will hurt but you got to do what you got to do, this was eventually going to happen. See what they have, panic moves help nobody.

-Nyquist is there to replace Hudler, well do better than Hudler really. He isn't counted on to replace Filppula, he is going to make the top 6 better and has great chemistry with Datsyuk.

-Helm brings a lot of speed to the lineup, and is a good pk guy on a team that if they don't want to play Datsyuk and Zetterberg huge minutes there needs him badly. Sure you can find some nice depth players but that doesn't mean you have to part with your own. When you find you like and is great in your system and huge for your team you hold on to that guy, see Draper.

-Great I am glad he would consider re-signing here, we hope he sign here on July 1st for a nice contract and no assets.
ok..... sure

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Old
11-30-2012, 08:21 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Imo: Schneider > Gardiner and 1st > Schroeder.

Heck, you could even make it top-10 protected and I wouldn't care. Leafs + Schneider(or Luongo) = playoffs. The 1st is really not all that valuable when you have legitimate goaltending.
I'd love to get Schneider; I don't want any part of Luongo. Neither guarantees anything, let alone making the playoffs. However, the price is too high. I think, like many Leaf fans, every time I see us sending a #1 for a goalie, straight up or in a package, I just balk. Given the history of the organization, that reaction may amount more to being gun shy than to clear logic. But I just don't see the Leafs contemplating a move like that for a long, long time.

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11-30-2012, 08:44 AM
  #92
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I'd love to get Schneider; I don't want any part of Luongo. Neither guarantees anything, let alone making the playoffs. However, the price is too high. I think, like many Leaf fans, every time I see us sending a #1 for a goalie, straight up or in a package, I just balk. Given the history of the organization, that reaction may amount more to being gun shy than to clear logic. But I just don't see the Leafs contemplating a move like that for a long, long time.
does that mean you're satisfied w no playoffs or being a non-contender for a long, long time?
(im genuinely curious, not trying to be facetious)

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11-30-2012, 08:46 AM
  #93
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I'd love to get Schneider; I don't want any part of Luongo. Neither guarantees anything, let alone making the playoffs. However, the price is too high. I think, like many Leaf fans, every time I see us sending a #1 for a goalie, straight up or in a package, I just balk. Given the history of the organization, that reaction may amount more to being gun shy than to clear logic. But I just don't see the Leafs contemplating a move like that for a long, long time.
That's a fair stance however, you have to hope one of your goalies eventually becomes the answer, as this is not an particularly high demand for a goalie with the ceiling Schneider has. Toronto lacks the abundance of assets to make a quantity trade and needs to give up something big, at least for Schneider. Personally, I'd say either goalie would drag Toronto into the playoffs unless some fluke injury struck.

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11-30-2012, 09:03 AM
  #94
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Leaf untouchables list:

Gardiner
Rielly
Phaneuf
Kessel
2013 1st
2014 1st

Still want to try and make a deal? didnt think so...

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Old
11-30-2012, 09:23 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
To Toronto: Schneider, Schroeder
To Vancouver: Gardiner, 1st

To Detroit: Edler
To Vancouver: Filppula, Helm

Toronto gets a goalie and potential top-6C, Detroit gets a beastly defensman, and Vancouver gets a potential beastly defenseman, an established 3C, and a solid top-6 winger(who can play C)
Toronto says no way.

No chance that the Schneider / Gardiner difference is Schroeder / our 1st.

Gardiner has played more NHL games and is younger than Schneider so don't tell me he is less proven either.

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11-30-2012, 09:47 AM
  #96
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I agree Filppula is much better than Higgins but Hansen and Helm aren't all that different. I would give Hansen the edge as it stands now.
Yeah I don't think Hansen and Helm are that far apart. I like Helm better, but that's another argument. Saying the package of Hansen and Higgins is better than Filppula and Helm is just ridiculous though.

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11-30-2012, 09:56 AM
  #97
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Toronto says no way.

No chance that the Schneider / Gardiner difference is Schroeder / our 1st.

Gardiner has played more NHL games and is younger than Schneider so don't tell me he is less proven either.
Schneider may be about as proven as Gardiner, but he's also been better in that time period. If Gardiner had put up the second most points for any dman in the league, then it would be a wash.

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11-30-2012, 12:08 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Filppula actually led the Wings in ESP with 54, and tied H.Sedin, who led the Canucks. Filppula only posted 13 PPP. Kesler, OTOH, put up 28 ESP and 19 PPP. A large part of this discrepancy is the different roles they had at ES and PP; Filppula played top-six as a winger, with a reduced defensive responsibility from previous seasons. From 2007-08 through 2010-11 he averaged 71 GP (missed 44 games) and 30 ESP, splitting time between the second and third lines. Kesler averaged 82GP (missed 2 games) and 37 ESP. Both averaged approximately 14 minutes per game at ES over the span and in individual years. The biggest difference in their total numbers came from Kesler playing significantly more on the PP; specifically on the first unit with the Sedins rather than on the second unit or being an "alternate option" as Filppula was in 2008-09, when he "second" unit was the ridiculous Franzen-Zetterberg-Hudler-Kronwall-Samuelsson. As many as four of whom might be on the FIRST unit this upcoming(?) season. Whenever that is.
Kesler lead the Canucks in PP goals when he was on the 2nd unit playing with Raymond and a revolving door. The Canucks became one of the deadliest 5 man PP units when Kesler was put on the first unit PP. Lets not underate Kesler.. he is better than Fillpula offensively and defensively. It's not a knock on Fillpula, it's just a fact.

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11-30-2012, 12:52 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Schneider may be about as proven as Gardiner, but he's also been better in that time period. If Gardiner had put up the second most points for any dman in the league, then it would be a wash.
He led all rookie d-men in scoring...

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11-30-2012, 01:23 PM
  #100
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He led all rookie d-men in scoring...
Not all that impressive considering there weren't that many good offensive defensemen rookies.

Schultz will do better than that whenever the league comes back. Smith might very well do better too.

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