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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VII: The Last Waltz "Cut the sheet & drop the puck!"

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Old
11-30-2012, 03:38 AM
  #926
Zil
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Really surprised more people are not questioning the accuracy in the Forbes article.

Wake up Sheeple!


Be careful what you wish for.

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11-30-2012, 04:47 AM
  #927
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No it's not BUT neither side seems to have any interest in actually fixing the problem. That's the most frustrating part of all, after all this knowing that it is a 1000% guarantee that we will be going thru the same thing in 6 years with another lockout because sliding around % doesn't address the real issue.

It's pretty much simple math if a small number of teams account for the majority of the $$, and you force all teams to spend based on league revenues then those top teams will make monster profits and the bottom teams will struggle to make ends meet.

I'm not saying I have the answer or going to suggest that it's as simple as more revenue sharing. But until you either fix that imbalance and/or make teams spend based on their own revenue and not the leagues then you will continue to have these problems whether the players are getting 57%, 50% or 45% because its only a matter of time before the top teams drive up the league revenue to the point that the bottom teams can't afford that % either.
This!

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11-30-2012, 04:57 AM
  #928
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"I've learned it's not wise to read tea leaves here," said Gabriel Feldman, a professor of sports law at Tulane University. "My position all along has been that I would be surprised if they don't come to agreement in time to save the season. I've always believed there would be a shortened season, and thought this would generally be the window when the agreement would be reached. So I think it's too soon for NHL fans to panic. We have seen the NBA get a deal done at the last minute, and there is still time for the NHL to get a deal done at the last minute with or without dissolution of the union."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ssful/1736099/

I thought the Winter Classic would the first game so January 1 was my date. Then the Winter Classic was cancelled in early November. The Wings didn't want to host the game coming off a lockout. The NHL didn't want to spend the money to put on the event. I was listening to an ESPN podcast in October with LeBrun.Burnside,Custance and Katie Strang. They were discussing the ticket sales to the Winter Classic. The NHL didn't want to play in a stadium which wasn't full. Get a deal done within the next 2-3 weeks. They begin play the last week of December or first week in January. Ten day training camp. Tomorrow is December 1. End game is near. The BOG meeting is on Wednesday.

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11-30-2012, 05:01 AM
  #929
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Question, after Bettman and Jacobs, who would your next villain be? And the next one after that??
Every hard line owner, especially those who spent large amounts of money with the intention of rolling it back

The players are being incredibly stubborn and seem to be willing to blow up this season instead of conceding the owners demands, but that doesn't exactly make the owners demands more reasonable. I think the owners scorched earth method of "negotiating", and the hurried signing of a bunch of players to large contracts with the intention of recouping some of that cost through a new CBA, has been a real roadblock in any kind of effective negotiating, or at the very least, has made it much more unlikely that the players would just cave on several issues.

I also blame Bettman and the owners for the financial state of the game and for not actually addressing the economic problems of the league and instead just going after the players

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11-30-2012, 08:03 AM
  #930
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Every hard line owner, especially those who spent large amounts of money with the intention of rolling it back

The players are being incredibly stubborn and seem to be willing to blow up this season instead of conceding the owners demands, but that doesn't exactly make the owners demands more reasonable. I think the owners scorched earth method of "negotiating", and the hurried signing of a bunch of players to large contracts with the intention of recouping some of that cost through a new CBA, has been a real roadblock in any kind of effective negotiating, or at the very least, has made it much more unlikely that the players would just cave on several issues.

I also blame Bettman and the owners for the financial state of the game and for not actually addressing the economic problems of the league and instead just going after the players
I agree with most of this.

But if you're so worried that the owners are going to brow-beat the players into a deal, maybe this "players = children" metaphor has more legs than I thought.

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11-30-2012, 08:33 AM
  #931
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Eh, I mean realistically the players are probably fairly uneducated compared to the owners and have spent their entire lives training to play hockey, have had agents to deal with all of their business decisions since they were teenagers, have had the union to deal with the owners, etc etc, and in general it's not a balanced power dynamic...the owners and players aren't really on equal footing, at least at the individual level by any means.

The union is about trying to level that playing field and giving them a fair chance at negotiating. Saying "well how about we just meet without any union or league representatives" is pretty much an attempt to bypass those benefits the union gives the players and tip the balance of power back to the owners. Especially if the owners who will be meeting with the players are Bettman's core group of supporters.

Not that I necessarily think it'd work...I imagine within 30 seconds Jacobs would have just pissed them all off by talking down to them, I'm just saying that the offer to meet really doesn't sound like a good thing or some kind of gesture of good faith. It's the leagues attempt to get Fehr out of the picture.

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11-30-2012, 08:40 AM
  #932
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I'm hoping its a chance for the sides to agree to some compromises with a "save face" opportunity... if Bettman/Fehr aren't a part of the process, they weren't the ones to break. Maybe that's the naive approach and this is just a thinly veiled attempt of tricking the union. Maybe its both.

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11-30-2012, 08:40 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Really surprised more people are not questioning the accuracy in the Forbes article.

Wake up Sheeple!
problem is that there is no other source to provide a counter arguement. yeah i don't believe for a second that those numbers are 100% accurate. but at the same time i have no evidence to say that those numbers are completely off either.

i do believe that there are teams struggling and i do believe that a few teams make the majority of the $$...so the exact numbers might be write but the overall pictures? not so sure its that far off.

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11-30-2012, 08:47 AM
  #934
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Eh, I mean realistically the players are probably fairly uneducated compared to the owners and have spent their entire lives training to play hockey, have had agents to deal with all of their business decisions since they were teenagers, have had the union to deal with the owners, etc etc, and in general it's not a balanced power dynamic...the owners and players aren't really on equal footing, at least at the individual level by any means.

The union is about trying to level that playing field and giving them a fair chance at negotiating. Saying "well how about we just meet without any union or league representatives" is pretty much an attempt to bypass those benefits the union gives the players and tip the balance of power back to the owners. Especially if the owners who will be meeting with the players are Bettman's core group of supporters.

Not that I necessarily think it'd work...I imagine within 30 seconds Jacobs would have just pissed them all off by talking down to them, I'm just saying that the offer to meet really doesn't sound like a good thing or some kind of gesture of good faith. It's the leagues attempt to get Fehr out of the picture.
I think the owners and players meeting was just a floater that will be eventually rejected by the PA. To your point, where is the upside for the PA to be attending such a thing? The owners have plenty of upside because its a chance to talk some players into breaking ranks with PA leadership. Something thats probably not difficult to do for guys making less than a million a year and missing paychecks.

The big date is going to be the rumored December 5th Board of Governors meeting. Some moderate owners NEED to step up in that meeting and let the league leadership know its time to end this madness. If the status quo remains after that meeting, I'll really fear for the season for the first time throughout this.

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11-30-2012, 08:57 AM
  #935
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
problem is that there is no other source to provide a counter arguement. yeah i don't believe for a second that those numbers are 100% accurate. but at the same time i have no evidence to say that those numbers are completely off either.

i do believe that there are teams struggling and i do believe that a few teams make the majority of the $$...so the exact numbers might be write but the overall pictures? not so sure its that far off.
I think they're vaguely accurate but don't really account for everything that's going on with the teams. Like the Blues were recently solid for $130 mill and were included in that Forbes article as one of the least valuable franchises, but apparently Checketts was selling off related pieces of business piecemeal before that, so it's hard to know if you're comparing apples to apples when you talk about the Blues franchise value compared to the Rangers or something.

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think the owners and players meeting was just a floater that will be eventually rejected by the PA. To your point, where is the upside for the PA to be attending such a thing? The owners have plenty of upside because its a chance to talk some players into breaking ranks with PA leadership. Something thats probably not difficult to do for guys making less than a million a year and missing paychecks.
I agree.

Quote:
The big date is going to be the rumored December 5th Board of Governors meeting. Some moderate owners NEED to step up in that meeting and let the league leadership know its time to end this madness. If the status quo remains after that meeting, I'll really fear for the season for the first time throughout this.
Agree again, but I'm not terribly optimistic about moderate owners stepping up and forcing the issue. They don't seem to have done so at any point before now and it kind of seems like as long as there are 8 franchises supporting Bettman the rest of them just throw up their hands and go "welp, what can you do". Granted that impression is based on nothing, but yeah I think the hardliners are 100% behind canceling the season if they don't get everything they're after, and the moderates need to make some noise

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11-30-2012, 09:21 AM
  #936
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Agree again, but I'm not terribly optimistic about moderate owners stepping up and forcing the issue. They don't seem to have done so at any point before now and it kind of seems like as long as there are 8 franchises supporting Bettman the rest of them just throw up their hands and go "welp, what can you do". Granted that impression is based on nothing, but yeah I think the hardliners are 100% behind canceling the season if they don't get everything they're after, and the moderates need to make some noise
Where is Dolan in all this?

If the Forbes #'s are right hes throwing $75M in profit down the toilet -- this for a guy that just spent almost $1B renovating his arena.

More importantly (as far as Im concerned anyway), his team is one of the favorites to contend for the cup this year.

He was rumored to have been a help in the NBA negotiations - does he know he owns an NHL team too?

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11-30-2012, 09:36 AM
  #937
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Where is Dolan in all this?

If the Forbes #'s are right hes throwing $75M in profit down the toilet -- this for a guy that just spent almost $1B renovating his arena.

More importantly (as far as Im concerned anyway), his team is one of the favorites to contend for the cup this year.

He was rumored to have been a help in the NBA negotiations - does he know he owns an NHL team too?
What can Dolan really do?

He only has 1 vote. Perhaps if was willing to pay a decent chunk ( 1/2) of his profits along with other profitable owners the stalemate could be ended? I understand, Not gonna happen.


If you believe 1/2 the teams are making money (more than a few million) and a few of those are hard liners I find it hard to believe that only 8 owners are holding out? I believe the number is closer to 10-15.

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11-30-2012, 09:47 AM
  #938
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Where is Dolan in all this?

If the Forbes #'s are right hes throwing $75M in profit down the toilet -- this for a guy that just spent almost $1B renovating his arena.

More importantly (as far as Im concerned anyway), his team is one of the favorites to contend for the cup this year.

He was rumored to have been a help in the NBA negotiations - does he know he owns an NHL team too?
dolan has been the most vocal owner against the lockout but there really isn't much he can do unless a bunch of other owners get behind him to put pressure on the league

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11-30-2012, 09:49 AM
  #939
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I think the owners and players meeting was just a floater that will be eventually rejected by the PA. To your point, where is the upside for the PA to be attending such a thing? The owners have plenty of upside because its a chance to talk some players into breaking ranks with PA leadership. Something thats probably not difficult to do for guys making less than a million a year and missing paychecks.

The big date is going to be the rumored December 5th Board of Governors meeting. Some moderate owners NEED to step up in that meeting and let the league leadership know its time to end this madness. If the status quo remains after that meeting, I'll really fear for the season for the first time throughout this.
The upside is this is a way for them to get closer to playing hockey, to have their voices heard, and in a roundabout way, to give them a moment to think about what it'll be like without a union to fight their battle. The NHL knows that's their next move (decertification or disclaim or whatever)... Here's your chance to think about life post-PA.

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11-30-2012, 10:16 AM
  #940
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What can Dolan really do?
In theory he could be spending time behind the scenes trying to garner support among the other owners for changes to the process/to get the season going.

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11-30-2012, 10:24 AM
  #941
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I take it the mediation hasn't jumped started anything.

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11-30-2012, 10:54 AM
  #942
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NHL waiting to hear from PA before determining the dynamic of group of owners in owner-player mtng. Union first must agree to concept.

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11-30-2012, 10:54 AM
  #943
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The upside is this is a way for them to get closer to playing hockey, to have their voices heard, and in a roundabout way, to give them a moment to think about what it'll be like without a union to fight their battle. The NHL knows that's their next move (decertification or disclaim or whatever)... Here's your chance to think about life post-PA.
Thats the upside for the players?

Sounds more like a free for all.

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11-30-2012, 10:55 AM
  #944
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I take it the mediation hasn't jumped started anything.
Yep.

They heard the players positions.

They heard the owners positions.

They consulted and agreed with Bettman position... who said weeks ago that the sides were far apart.

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11-30-2012, 10:55 AM
  #945
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Today is the first day I am really pissed about the lockout. I saw some tourists walking into the NHL store. I wanted to tell them to go take a walk up the block to the NBA store on 5th. It will be a long time before I give those lousy ****s another penny if they lose ANOTHER season. I hope they miss all of next season too. 6-8 teams go bankrupt. There are players in the NHL who shouldn't be in the NHL. Let both of them pay the price. The 21 team NHL was a very good product. 16 teams made the playoffs.

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11-30-2012, 10:55 AM
  #946
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Of course, every player in NHL has been invited/encouraged by PA to attend "negotiating" sessions. League has allowed 4 owners to attend.

"Union must first agree to concept" as per @DarrenDreger. Where have we heard that before? PA should ask for owners of NYR, Mont, LA, Philly

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11-30-2012, 10:59 AM
  #947
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Today is the first day I am really pissed about the lockout. I saw some tourists walking into the NHL store. I wanted to tell them to go take a walk up the block to the NBA store on 5th. It will be a long time before I give those lousy ****s another penny if they lose ANOTHER season. I hope they miss all of next season too. 6-8 teams go bankrupt. There are players in the NHL who shouldn't be in the NHL. Let both of them pay the price. The 21 team NHL was a very good product. 16 teams made the playoffs.
I agree man. If they lose another year I am done giving them money.

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11-30-2012, 10:59 AM
  #948
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In theory he could be spending time behind the scenes trying to garner support among the other owners for changes to the process/to get the season going.
Dolan did make a motion to oust Bettman. With the huge penalties for going public about the lockout, its impossible to know exactly what Dolan is doing.

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11-30-2012, 11:01 AM
  #949
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Today is the first day I am really pissed about the lockout. I saw some tourists walking into the NHL store. I wanted to tell them to go take a walk up the block to the NBA store on 5th. It will be a long time before I give those lousy ****s another penny if they lose ANOTHER season. I hope they miss all of next season too. 6-8 teams go bankrupt. There are players in the NHL who shouldn't be in the NHL. Let both of them pay the price. The 21 team NHL was a very good product. 16 teams made the playoffs.
I've been to the NHL store a couple of times during the lockout and I can't believe people are buying stuff. I assume most of the people are tourists but without even getting into the fact that you're giving them money while they're in a lockout, what's the point in buying it now? Why not wait until whenever they come back? Last thing I'm doing is buying NHL stuff to wear during the lockout. It's just stupid.

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Old
11-30-2012, 11:03 AM
  #950
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Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie
Of course, every player in NHL has been invited/encouraged by PA to attend "negotiating" sessions. League has allowed 4 owners to attend.

"Union must first agree to concept" as per @DarrenDreger. Where have we heard that before? PA should ask for owners of NYR, Mont, LA, Philly
ahahah

fantastic

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