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Old
11-30-2012, 12:12 PM
  #326
BoldNewLettuce
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
How many Memorial Cup mvp's does Sequin have again?

Someone who can win not one, but two of them surely has some hockey sense.
You'd have to be an idiot to look directly at Sequins trophy case.

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11-30-2012, 12:15 PM
  #327
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Re all this Hall discussion: Hall is a great player but IMO Hartikainen fits with RNH and Ebs better as a linemate.

Hopefully Hall and Yakupov form chemistry and compliment each others skill.

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11-30-2012, 12:16 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by BoldNewLettuce View Post
You'd have to be an idiot to look directly at Sequins trophy case.
how hard is to type seGuin's name correctly? The guy has been in the leaQue for a couple years now.

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11-30-2012, 12:21 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by BoldNewLettuce View Post
You'd have to be an idiot to look directly at Sequins trophy case.
Care to elaborate?

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11-30-2012, 12:22 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
how hard is to type seGuin's name correctly? The guy has been in the leaQue for a couple years now.
They do it on purpose.

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11-30-2012, 12:23 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
how hard is to type seGuin's name correctly? The guy has been in the leaQue for a couple years now.
People are misspelling it on purpose.


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Old
11-30-2012, 12:28 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Care to elaborate?
That many freshly polished trophies, bedazzled in glitter and shiny crap, probably blinding...

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11-30-2012, 01:11 PM
  #333
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That many freshly polished trophies, bedazzled in glitter and shiny crap, probably blinding...
Nope, that's just his reflection in the mirror with that sequined jersey on.

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11-30-2012, 01:15 PM
  #334
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Hall sucks on breakaways, he said that it's something that he'd like to work on, let's see it. That said he is clearly not 100% yet so let's not judge his future potential when he's getting used to his "new shoulder". And Hemsky 83, he does have a good shot, it's just that he isn't hitting the net enough with it.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:33 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Hall sucks on breakaways, he said that it's something that he'd like to work on, let's see it. That said he is clearly not 100% yet so let's not judge his future potential when he's getting used to his "new shoulder". And Hemsky 83, he does have a good shot, it's just that he isn't hitting the net enough with it.
This has been a consistent problem since he's entered the NHL. He's got the hardest wrist shot on the team right now (yes, harder than Eberle's), but the accuracy is lacking horribly. You can't just say it's a good shot if the accuracy isn't there.

As an aside - Yakupov's shot is scary good. More velocity than Hall, better accuracy than Eberle - that's a scary combination.

As for working on breakaways, he should just stop trying to deke out goalies. He's actually quite horrible at it. The dekes that do work for him have more to beating defensemen, and that too when used in combination with his speed. He's not that RNH/Datsyuk-like talent where he can be standing there, basically immobile, and still deke you out of your pants. Goalies can easily read dekes from someone like Hall - he needs to let his speed become more of a factor on breakaways/shootouts so he can make goalies back off and expose holes.

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11-30-2012, 01:34 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Hall sucks on breakaways, he said that it's something that he'd like to work on, let's see it. That said he is clearly not 100% yet so let's not judge his future potential when he's getting used to his "new shoulder". And Hemsky 83, he does have a good shot, it's just that he isn't hitting the net enough with it.
Hall tends to build up way too much speed on his wide open breakaway chances.

I think in JR hockey you can intimidate a less experienced goalie by coming in hard...but...a better pro level goalie isn't going to have a hard time with just straight speed.

Breakaway efficiency is like pretty much any other aspect of the game in that its not so much about what move you make its how well you make it.

So I agree with you...Hall needs to keep working on his shooting/accuracy.

Ultimatley he can have success by shooting more and less stickhandling.

And as a left handed shot...I strongly believe the stick side on a left hand glove goalie is where you want to be looking.

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11-30-2012, 01:40 PM
  #337
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On a positive note...The way that Justin Schultz opens up space at the blue line is awesome. Was thinking yesterday that if he had Yak on his side we would see a ton of PP goals from Yakupov primary assist to Schultz just because of him opening up space and then quick pass for the one timer from Yak. Cannot wait to see Yak join them!

I really don't care that much anymore about an NHL season. I am enjoying watching them down in OKC learning how to win and building chemistry. In saying that I would still be happy to see a season. Mostly to see Yak get to play with the kids as well. That is one of the only downsides to this lockout is that he is stuck over in Russia.

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11-30-2012, 01:40 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Everest View Post
Hall tends to build up way too much speed on his wide open breakaway chances.

I think in JR hockey you can intimidate a less experienced goalie by coming in hard...but...a better pro level goalie isn't going to have a hard time with just straight speed.

Breakaway efficiency is like pretty much any other aspect of the game in that its not so much about what move you make its how well you make it.

So I agree with you...Hall needs to keep working on his shooting/accuracy.

Ultimatley he can have success by shooting more and less stickhandling.

And as a left handed shot...I strongly believe the stick side on a left hand glove goalie is where you want to be looking.
He should take note of how Nail approaches breakaways. They have somewhat similar wrist shots.

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11-30-2012, 01:44 PM
  #339
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On a positive note...The way that Justin Schultz opens up space at the blue line is awesome. Was thinking yesterday that if he had Yak on his side we would see a ton of PP goals from Yakupov primary assist to Schultz just because of him opening up space and then quick pass for the one timer from Yak. Cannot wait to see Yak join them!

I really don't care that much anymore about an NHL season. I am enjoying watching them down in OKC learning how to win and building chemistry. In saying that I would still be happy to see a season. Mostly to see Yak get to play with the kids as well.
And vice-versa with Yakupov creating space for Schultz to shoot, defenders have to show a lot of respect for Yakupov's shot and his passes are so quick that he'll be able to feed Schultz a lot of open looks. Those two are going to give penalty killers fits (I assume Schultz will be on both PP units).

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11-30-2012, 01:44 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
How many Memorial Cup mvp's does Sequin have again?

Someone who can win not one, but two of them surely has some hockey sense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffor...emorial_Trophy

Players with questionable hockey sense on this list:
Milan Lucic
Alexander Radulov
Darcy Tucker
Pat Falloon

Hell, half of these guys aren't even NHL players. This list just goes to show that the "Memorial Cup MVP" argument is even more pointless when comparing Hall and Seguin.

I'll admit the gap is probably not as large as I tend to make it sound, but objectively speaking, it's definitely there. Just look at these HF polls over the past few months:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1253273

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...php?p=56065515 (Seguin higher up than Hall)

Outside of HF Oil, the general opinion amongst NHL fans these days is that Seguin>Hall. They're both spectacular players - we should be happy to have one of them. I'm just shocked how butt-hurt Oiler fans are getting about the concept of Seguin being the better player.

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11-30-2012, 02:04 PM
  #341
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Hall is outscoring Seguin, on a lesser team, with less games played. How is this even up for debate anymore?

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11-30-2012, 02:17 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffor...emorial_Trophy

Outside of HF Oil, the general opinion amongst NHL fans these days is that Seguin>Hall. They're both spectacular players - we should be happy to have one of them. I'm just shocked how butt-hurt Oiler fans are getting about the concept of Seguin being the better player.
Outside of HFOil, most people might see Hall play once a year, they judge only by stats (since they usually will only have experience viewing one player in a discussion), and they forget what happened previous to the most recent season. With that in mind, it isnt much of a surprise that Sequin is HFboard's clear favorite (after Hall was the runaway favorite last year...)

Seguin might be the better player, but it's far from established. Judging by the impact Hall has for the Oilers, I doubt it.

Im shocked at how many people cant get off Sequin's pole after one decent season...

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11-30-2012, 02:19 PM
  #343
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It's probably that topless picture of him from the club.

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11-30-2012, 02:20 PM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffor...emorial_Trophy

Players with questionable hockey sense on this list:
Milan Lucic
Alexander Radulov
Darcy Tucker
Pat Falloon

Hell, half of these guys aren't even NHL players. This list just goes to show that the "Memorial Cup MVP" argument is even more pointless when comparing Hall and Seguin.

I'll admit the gap is probably not as large as I tend to make it sound, but objectively speaking, it's definitely there. Just look at these HF polls over the past few months:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1253273

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...php?p=56065515 (Seguin higher up than Hall)

Outside of HF Oil, the general opinion amongst NHL fans these days is that Seguin>Hall. They're both spectacular players - we should be happy to have one of them. I'm just shocked how butt-hurt Oiler fans are getting about the concept of Seguin being the better player.
HF polls?

Hall has done something no one else has done. Ever. But ya, he doesnt have any hockey sense. Good call.

This from a guy whose very username has questionable hockey sense.

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11-30-2012, 02:24 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Hall is outscoring Seguin, on a lesser team, with less games played. How is this even up for debate anymore?
Who cares about a lesser team? A more indicative index would be to look at who he's playing with and what situations he's being put in.

Hall has
a) more offensively dynamic linemates (RNH/Eberle > Bergeron/Marchand)
b) more PP minutes (2:27 for Seguin, 3:03 for Hall)
c) worse QualComp to deal with (0.03 for Hall, 0.057 for Seguin = 140 forwards separate Hall and Seguin in terms of the competition level of the opposition they faced at even strength)
d) more TOI in general (18:13 for Hall vs 16:56 for Seguin)

He's actually being given more opportunity to thrive offensively and produce - which he has to his credit. I think NHL fans are cognizant of this, but the gap that should exist between Hall and Seguin in terms of offensive production given the opportunities that Hall sees just isn't there.

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11-30-2012, 02:28 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
HF polls?

Hall has done something no one else has done. Ever. But ya, he doesnt have any hockey sense. Good call.

This from a guy whose very username has questionable hockey sense.
Sam Gagner has done something no one has done in 20+ years. Does that make him the best player in the NHL?

Hall isn't completely lacking hockey sense - I'm not saying that at all. If he were like that he wouldn't have the production that he does. But in terms of putting together his physical attributes into what he could be - the rate-limiting step here is his hockey sense. It's quite easily his weakest trait - and probably what's going to stop him from being the 85-90+ point player most were hoping to get when we drafted him.

FTR - a bunch of HF polls on the main board are probably a more objective representation of the difference between the 2 players than a bunch of Oiler fans sitting here gloating about MVP trophies won in junior hockey.

No one's out to get the Oilers or their players. People aren't being favorable to Seguin either. Hell, most of them would put RNH/Eberle above Seguin (which I agree with).

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11-30-2012, 02:33 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
Who cares about a lesser team? A more indicative index would be to look at who he's playing with and what situations he's being put in.

Hall has
a) more offensively dynamic linemates (RNH/Eberle > Bergeron/Marchand)
b) more PP minutes (2:27 for Seguin, 3:03 for Hall)
c) worse QualComp to deal with (0.03 for Hall, 0.057 for Seguin = 140 forwards separate Hall and Seguin in terms of the competition level of the opposition they faced at even strength)
d) more TOI in general (18:13 for Hall vs 16:56 for Seguin)

He's actually being given more opportunity to thrive offensively and produce - which he has to his credit. I think NHL fans are cognizant of this, but the gap that should exist between Hall and Seguin in terms of offensive production given the opportunities that Hall sees just isn't there.
a) Bergeron is > RNH at this point because he helps his team retain the puck more. Eberle is more dangerous than Marchand.
b) I'll give you PP minutes but the Oilers PP was top of the league for a good chunk of the season, so why wouldn't you go with what works? Boston's PP wasn't so hot
c) Does QualComp take into account the quality of team mates on the ice? The Oilers have essentially had Tom Gilbert and a lame Ryan Whitney (when he played) to move the puck out of the D Zone.
d) no argument here, Bruins could afford to keep Seguin off the ice more because their team was that much better than the Oilers.

One of my best friends is a lifelong B's fan, so I watch as much as I can. Seguin more often than not just seemed to be a support type player. He has taken over the game on occasion (like that big win against the TBL). I'm not discounting the fact he's a great player but people seem to think he's the phenom that we missed out on, fact is he's being out produced by Hall.

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11-30-2012, 02:38 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
Who cares about a lesser team? A more indicative index would be to look at who he's playing with and what situations he's being put in.

Hall has
a) more offensively dynamic linemates (RNH/Eberle > Bergeron/Marchand)
b) more PP minutes (2:27 for Seguin, 3:03 for Hall)
c) worse QualComp to deal with (0.03 for Hall, 0.057 for Seguin = 140 forwards separate Hall and Seguin in terms of the competition level of the opposition they faced at even strength)
d) more TOI in general (18:13 for Hall vs 16:56 for Seguin)

He's actually being given more opportunity to thrive offensively and produce - which he has to his credit. I think NHL fans are cognizant of this, but the gap that should exist between Hall and Seguin in terms of offensive production given the opportunities that Hall sees just isn't there.
So if you look at every part of an argument that could favor Seguin while ignoring the rest, he looks better than Hall? You dont say!

What about the fact that Hall played a substantial portion of the season not lined up with RNH/Eberle... (Im not even sure they were his most common even strength linemates)
What about Hall playing a substantial portion of the season injured?
What about the huge gulf of coaching ability and resulting systems separating Renny from Julien?
What about the massive gulf in quality between Boston's defense and Edmonton's? Dont think those guys have an impact in a forward's performance?

Yes, Hall is given more of an opportunity to produce offensively, but Im pretty skeptical that isnt balanced out by the fact that the team he plays on is weaker than the Bruins in every way possible. It's a team sport, and the incompetence of others can easily drag down the performances of stronger players.

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11-30-2012, 02:40 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Neatman View Post
Outside of HFOil, most people might see Hall play once a year, they judge only by stats (since they usually will only have experience viewing one player in a discussion), and they forget what happened previous to the most recent season. With that in mind, it isnt much of a surprise that Sequin is HFboard's clear favorite (after Hall was the runaway favorite last year...)

Seguin might be the better player, but it's far from established. Judging by the impact Hall has for the Oilers, I doubt it.

Im shocked at how many people cant get off Sequin's pole after one decent season...
I can't believe it either.

I don't know why, but it seems that everyone loves to hate Hall, even Oiler fans. Maybe it's because he doesn't have the highlight reel "sick dangles," or something like that, maybe it's the fact that most people on HF are eastern based so they don't get to watch him very often, or maybe it's something else, but I just don't get it.

As someone who has watched a ton of both Hall and Seguin, I honestly can't understand how anyone can come to the conclusion that Seguin is better. Seguin has the better aesthetic skills like stick handling and such, but Hall makes a much, much bigger impact on the game than Seguin ever will, and he does it every game he plays. Hall will never be invisible, Seguin will.

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11-30-2012, 02:42 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post

FTR - a bunch of HF polls on the main board are probably a more objective representation of the difference between the 2 players than a bunch of Oiler fans sitting here gloating about MVP trophies won in junior hockey.

No one's out to get the Oilers or their players. People aren't being favorable to Seguin either. Hell, most of them would put RNH/Eberle above Seguin (which I agree with).
What does it matter if an opinion is objective if it's also completely uninformed? Those main board polls are laughable. How many people voting in them actually view both players more than a couple times a year? It's a popularity contest essentially, with people going by what they see on a stat line or what theyve heard.

Youve outline a perfect example of what Ive just said. On the main board, people would vote Eberle over Hall, but if you look on HFOil, Hall would be voted the better player. Weird isnt it, that the perception of two players will differ between a group of people that watch them both play, and a group of people that do not.

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