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Old
11-30-2012, 08:50 AM
  #51
HockeyGuruPitka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
People have different opinions about Burke... but opinions overall don't really amount to anything.

Based on the facts Burke has been a failure. A humiliating and disgraceful failure.

It's been four years.

The team he took over was 10th in goals for. Last years team 10th in goals for.
The team he took over was 30th in goals against. Last years team was 29th in goals against.
The team he took over finished 7th last. Last years team finished 5th last.
The Marlies team he took over had almost 15 extra points in the regular season and won precisely one less game in the playoffs than last years marlies.
The Leafs prospects are currently ranked worse by both the Hockey News and HF than the team the took over.

Those are the FACTS.
It takes rhetoric and spin to counter those facts.
Many leaf fans resort to the rhetoric and spin (as opposed to accepting the facts) because they "think he's funny during media interviews".

I personally form my opinion based on facts, not whether I think someone is funny during an interview.
Having a superior intellect than most posters allows me to assess information based on factual and statistical analysis, as opposed to altering reality with spin and rhetoric to form an opinion based on bias.
I guess you neglect to remember that the leafs were the oldest team in the league and strapped to the cap? i guess you neglect to remember that we were tied down to these guys with NTC's? I guess you neglect to remember that Burke managed to turn the cap around and use it as an asset? I guess you neglect to aknowledge that we are going to have one of the lowest payrolls going into a post lock-out offseason with one of the deepest UFA markets that (because of cap reduction) will force teams to shed weight? I guess you neglect to remember that the cupboard was empty when Burke got here, yet our farm team is now a contendor?

Here is 2011-2012 production of our old top six forwards compared to our current:

Antropov

69 GP 15G 20A 35P (0.51 PPG)

Ponikoravski

82GP 14G 19A 33P (0.40 PPG)

Blake

45GP 7G 5A 12P (0.27 PPG)

Stempniak

69GP 14G 14A 28P (0.40 PPG)

Hagman

71GP 9G 14A 23P (0.32 PPG)

Grabovski

74GP 23G 28A 51P (0.69PPG)


Average TOP 6 PPG (0.43)
CURRENT TOP 6

Phill Kessel

82GP 37G 45A 82P (1PPG)

Joffrey Lupul

66GP 25G 42A 67P (1.01 PPG)

Mikhail Grabovski

74GP 23G 28A 51P (0.69PPG)

Tyler Bozak

73GP 18G 27A 29A 47P (0.64 PPG)

Clarke Macarthur

73GP 20G 23A 43P (0.58PPG)

JVR

43GP 11G 13A 24P (0.55PPG)

Average top 6 PPG (0.74PPG)

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11-30-2012, 09:03 AM
  #52
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Oh great another one of these threads...

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Old
11-30-2012, 09:13 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
I guess you neglect to remember that the leafs were the oldest team in the league and strapped to the cap? i guess you neglect to remember that we were tied down to these guys with NTC's? I guess you neglect to remember that Burke managed to turn the cap around and use it as an asset? I guess you neglect to aknowledge that we are going to have one of the lowest payrolls going into a post lock-out offseason with one of the deepest UFA markets that (because of cap reduction) will force teams to shed weight? I guess you neglect to remember that the cupboard was empty when Burke got here, yet our farm team is now a contendor?

Here is 2011-2012 production of our old top six forwards compared to our current:
Average TOP 6 PPG (0.43)



CURRENT TOP 6
Average top 6 PPG (0.74PPG)

You forgot to compare our current top 6 to what our top 6 was during the year Burke got here. Aka has there been significant improvement? Regardless of getting younger, are they actually doing a better job?

Blake: 63 points in 78 games = 0.808 PPG
Ponikerovsky: 61 points in 82 games = 0.744 PPG
Stajan: 55 points in 76 games = 0.724 PPG
Grabovski: 48 points in 78 games = 0.615 PPG
Antropov: 46 points in 63 games = 0.730 PPG
Moore: 41 is 63 games = 0.651 PPG

Average top 6 PPG 0.712 PPG

So after four years, Burke has managed to improve our PPG in our top 6 by 0.028...wooo... what an accomplishment.

Did he at least make our top 6 physically intimidating? No.
Did he at least make our top 6 defensively sound? No.
Did he find us a #1 C? no.

Who cares how those guys are doing on other teams. How is THIS team doing compared to how THIS team was doing 4 years ago.

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Old
11-30-2012, 09:15 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Nice to see you.

When Burkewas telling LEafs Nation what it wanted to hear...that it wouldn't take 5 years to make the playoffs...I heard a lot of media people looking at the club were saying 7 years to make it competetive.

And to be honest when you take into account the amount of young talent of the teams we were beating, and the Prime aged Talent on the teams we were chasing and the assets we were left with, 7 years was far more reasonable.

Most teams can make a rebuild in 5 years because they have soem good pieces to move out. And if we could have moved McCabe, Sundin, Kaberle and Tucker while their value was high, we wouldn't have needed to bring in Burke for a rebuild.


He got ahead of himself.
hello nice to see you too

i never thought of Burke as a guy who told Leaf Nation what they wanted to hear. i think Burke came in with his bravado, and sold the dream to us and the players UFA's were ready to believe and jump on board, a few years later we have all seen the plan bust, and become a revised version of ultimate success, to patience.We have also seen players from around the league loose faith in the process and UFA's and players with no trades staying far away from our town.


We spend a lot of time defending the management but this is not Tampa, this is Toronto and if you are going to come in and guns blazing and fail as Burke states that he has, what makes us think that we should have faith in him and his team being able to do anything more than what they have.

as i said in the show we need to have pride in our logo and rember our traditions Conn Smyth wrote on the dressing room walls in the Gardens Defeat Does Not Rest Lightly On Their Shoulders and as Leaf Nation it should not rest lightly on ours.

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Old
11-30-2012, 09:20 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
You forgot to compare our current top 6 to what our top 6 was during the year Burke got here. Aka has there been significant improvement? Regardless of getting younger, are they actually doing a better job?

Blake: 63 points in 78 games = 0.808 PPG
Ponikerovsky: 61 points in 82 games = 0.744 PPG
Stajan: 55 points in 76 games = 0.724 PPG
Grabovski: 48 points in 78 games = 0.615 PPG
Antropov: 46 points in 63 games = 0.730 PPG
Moore: 41 is 63 games = 0.651 PPG

Average top 6 PPG 0.712 PPG

So after four years, Burke has managed to improve our PPG in our top 6 by 0.028...wooo... what an accomplishment.

Did he at least make our top 6 physically intimidating? No.
Did he at least make our top 6 defensively sound? No.
Did he find us a #1 C? no.

Who cares how those guys are doing on other teams. How is THIS team doing compared to how THIS team was doing 4 years ago.
What happened then doesn’t matter. You need to live in the present. If Burke hadn’t made these necessary changes, we would have sank with the ship. He turned worthless hockey players into assets and made something out of nothing. The players we have now, have trade value. The players back then were old and weren’t even considered top 6 forwards on most teams. Yes our defense is subject right now, however we have one of the deepest defensive prospect pools in the league. he has built it up in order to be sustainable over a long period. Yes i will admit that he hasn’t addressed the two most pressing issues goaltending and center, however any semi intelligent person would know that these are also the most difficult positions to fill. Do me a favour and figure out how many of the top goalies and centers in this league were acquired versus developed. Get back to me.


Last edited by HockeyGuruPitka: 11-30-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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11-30-2012, 09:30 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
4 years ago today, he was hired as GM/President.

Something kind of interesting:
I don't buy into that chart much at all.

When he came to Toronto he had literally NOTHING to start from. He built and revamped an entire roster in 4 years. I don't think anyone can argue that the team isn't more skilled, with much better prospects and a better cap situation now than we were before he came.

The results haven't lined up, but I actually think they are going to start happening soon...

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11-30-2012, 09:34 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
So you believe Burke wouldn't have done any other trades before the start of the season?
Burke traded Schenn for JVR and signed Jay McClement as two examples in preparation for his upcoming season which will be his 5th.

All 30 GMs got locked out by their owners in essence when the CBA expired and no more transactions were permitted thereafter. Burke is not somehow being unfairly treated for evaluation here as the same situation exists for his peers and the teams he is in competition for in the NHL standings.

There was plenty of warning for everyone involved that the CBA was expiring and the Owners were shutting the doors. The lockout is not a good excuse for any GM to hide behind as the reason for the current status of their team. He would be blaming his own employer for the reason he isn't able to do his job further.

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11-30-2012, 09:35 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
You forgot to compare our current top 6 to what our top 6 was during the year Burke got here. Aka has there been significant improvement? Regardless of getting younger, are they actually doing a better job?

Blake: 63 points in 78 games = 0.808 PPG
Ponikerovsky: 61 points in 82 games = 0.744 PPG
Stajan: 55 points in 76 games = 0.724 PPG
Grabovski: 48 points in 78 games = 0.615 PPG
Antropov: 46 points in 63 games = 0.730 PPG
Moore: 41 is 63 games = 0.651 PPG

Average top 6 PPG 0.712 PPG

So after four years, Burke has managed to improve our PPG in our top 6 by 0.028...wooo... what an accomplishment.

Did he at least make our top 6 physically intimidating? No.
Did he at least make our top 6 defensively sound? No.
Did he find us a #1 C? no.

Who cares how those guys are doing on other teams. How is THIS team doing compared to how THIS team was doing 4 years ago.
If you are somehow trying to argue that going from Blake, Poni, Stajan, Grabo, Antropov and Moore to Lupul, Bozak, Kessel JVR, Grabo, Kule isn't a massive upgrade based on some numbers, then I think you don't know hockey and I am fine with you giving up on the Leafs.

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11-30-2012, 09:55 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
I don't buy into that chart much at all.

When he came to Toronto he had literally NOTHING to start from. He built and revamped an entire roster in 4 years. I don't think anyone can argue that the team isn't more skilled, with much better prospects and a better cap situation now than we were before he came.

The results haven't lined up, but I actually think they are going to start happening soon...
What has happened is Reality, and what people hope will happen in the future is referred to as Optimism.

Only 1 is fact based while the other is fiction at this point in time, and that is an important distinction.

The great Burke debate is divided by those evaluating him on his current .422 winning % and 4 straight non playoff years and on what he has done, verses those that plead for more time and patience in hopes of what the team he assembled will do in the future.

When an employer calls an employee into his office in any business and does a performance review, do you believe he is basing his evaluation on what you have done for his business since you were hired, or what he hopes you will do from this point going forward?.

In Burke's case the actual results show the team is lower in the standings today, then when he took over the job 4 years ago. So believing the team is better on paper is an intangible debate as they're not better on the ice where it counts and is measured by the evidence in hand.


Last edited by Mess: 11-30-2012 at 10:22 AM.
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11-30-2012, 09:58 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
What has happened is Reality, and what people hope will happen in the future is Optimism.

Only 1 is fact based while the other is fiction at this point in time.

The great Burke debate is divided by those evaluating him on his current .422 winning % and 4 straight non playoff years and on what he has done, verses those that plead for more time and patience in hopes of what the team he assembled will do in the future.

When an employer calls an employee into his office in any business and does a performance review, do you believe he is basing his evaluation on what you have done for his business since you where hired, or what he hopes you will do from this point going forward?.

In Burke's case the actual results show the team is lower in the standings today, then when he took over the job 4 years ago. So believing the team is better on paper is an intangible debate as they're not better on the ice where it counts and is measured by the evidence in hand.
Both, obviously.

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11-30-2012, 11:05 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Both, obviously.
The goals certainly are expected future improvement, as was the case when Burke was hired originally, but that doesn't change what you have done verses what you hope someone will do. Playoffs were the intended goal and that happens by improving the team in the standings to be able to compete in them. This hasn't happened in Burke's case after 4 non playoff years on record as on today.

So how do you base a current evaluation on things that haven't happened yet?

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11-30-2012, 11:07 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The goals certainly are expected future improvement, but that doesn't change what you have done verses what you hope someone will do.

How do you base a current evaluation on things that haven't happened yet?
Forecasting happens all the time business. Many things are based on educated guesses.

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11-30-2012, 11:23 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Forecasting happens all the time business. Many things are based on educated guesses.
Forecasting is not a standard bases for performance job reviews, and not based on educated guesses on things that haven't actually happened, or on things someone hasn't done yet.

When Burke was hired it was done with the goal of improving the team, MLSE did that with hope of forecasting future playoff games and team success. That has not happened in the 4 years since his arrival and that is a fact, which proves the forecasting model was inaccurate up until now, and company objectives have not been met.

If a GM is hired and inherits a 83 point, 7th last overall team and in 4 years of changes and transactions he turns it into a 80 point, 5th last one overall, all the forecasting in the World is not going to show improvement based on actual results obtained. So forecasting is projecting, but its evaluated on performance on how accurate those educated guesses were when the actual results are in.

Which then turns the attention to if the original forecasting model (best guess) was inaccurate or the person hired with the goals of obtaining them the reason for the failure.

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11-30-2012, 11:31 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
People have different opinions about Burke... but opinions overall don't really amount to anything.

Based on the facts Burke has been a failure. A humiliating and disgraceful failure.

It's been four years.

The team he took over was 10th in goals for. Last years team 10th in goals for.
The team he took over was 30th in goals against. Last years team was 29th in goals against.
The team he took over finished 7th last. Last years team finished 5th last.
The Marlies team he took over had almost 15 extra points in the regular season and won precisely one less game in the playoffs than last years marlies.
The Leafs prospects are currently ranked worse by both the Hockey News and HF than the team the took over.

Those are the FACTS.
It takes rhetoric and spin to counter those facts.
Many leaf fans resort to the rhetoric and spin (as opposed to accepting the facts) because they "think he's funny during media interviews".

I personally form my opinion based on facts, not whether I think someone is funny during an interview.
Having a superior intellect than most posters allows me to assess information based on factual and statistical analysis, as opposed to altering reality with spin and rhetoric to form an opinion based on bias.
Just so you know, the Leafs prospects were ranked Top 10 last year until they graduated. That's how it works if you didn't realize.

The rest of your points are not worth responding to.

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11-30-2012, 11:35 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Burke traded Schenn for JVR and signed Jay McClement as two examples in preparation for his upcoming season which will be his 5th.

All 30 GMs got locked out by their owners in essence when the CBA expired and no more transactions were permitted thereafter. Burke is not somehow being unfairly treated for evaluation here as the same situation exists for his peers and the teams he is in competition for in the NHL standings.

There was plenty of warning for everyone involved that the CBA was expiring and the Owners were shutting the doors. The lockout is not a good excuse for any GM to hide behind as the reason for the current status of their team. He would be blaming his own employer for the reason he isn't able to do his job further.
This whole post is just

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11-30-2012, 11:39 AM
  #66
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Burke is the best GM this team has ever seen... just be patient guys...
Yeah cause his career numbers clearly show it and his record with the Leafs is fantastic. Burke is a sham. The guy is utterly incompetent.

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11-30-2012, 11:42 AM
  #67
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In reality Burke has been here 5 years

He came to the Leafs in November and was given a Six year contract with the first year pro rated. So in essence he missed one month October. His first move was bringing in Gerber who cost us Tavares because Cujo and Pogge couldn't stop a beach ball and Toskala was out for the season. Another Educated guess that went assunder along with many more since.

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11-30-2012, 11:53 AM
  #68
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4 years ago today, he was hired as GM/President and has failed to put a productive team on the ice.

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11-30-2012, 11:56 AM
  #69
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What it all comes down to is.... making the playoffs.

I still believe Burkie does not know how to BUILD a team.

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11-30-2012, 11:57 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Yeah cause his career numbers clearly show it and his record with the Leafs is fantastic. Burke is a sham. The guy is utterly incompetent.
I do think he has some good managerial tools but overall, he's overrated. The guy is also a hot head ad doesn't know when to shut up.

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11-30-2012, 12:16 PM
  #71
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SportsNet : Spector on Burke: Four-year report card

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/...0report%20card

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11-30-2012, 12:36 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Forecasting is not a standard bases for performance job reviews, and not based on educated guesses on things that haven't actually happened, or on things someone hasn't done yet.

When Burke was hired it was done with the goal of improving the team, MLSE did that with hope of forecasting future playoff games and team success. That has not happened in the 4 years since his arrival and that is a fact, which proves the forecasting model was inaccurate up until now, and company objectives have not been met.

If a GM is hired and inherits a 83 point, 7th last overall team and in 4 years of changes and transactions he turns it into a 80 point, 5th last one overall, all the forecasting in the World is not going to show improvement based on actual results obtained. So forecasting is projecting, but its evaluated on performance on how accurate those educated guesses were when the actual results are in.

Which then turns the attention to if the original forecasting model (best guess) was inaccurate or the person hired with the goals of obtaining them the reason for the failure.
I would like to think so but we don't know for sure. Burke has said that hockey is apart of the entertainment business. Could lead to one concluding that his job requirement is to make the team entertaining (which is most often associated with on ice success). But just a few days ago the team was valued at 1 billion dollars, much more than when he arrived. He must be doing something right.

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11-30-2012, 12:48 PM
  #73
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Is there anyway to listen to that without iTunes? Sorry I refuse to use any apple software or devices.
i will have an MP3 link by end of day

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11-30-2012, 01:02 PM
  #74
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How is this even an argument?

This team has failed in nearly every single category.
The retool has failed miserably.
The rebuild is 2-3 years behind where it should be.

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11-30-2012, 02:11 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
What has happened is Reality, and what people hope will happen in the future is referred to as Optimism.

Only 1 is fact based while the other is fiction at this point in time, and that is an important distinction.

The great Burke debate is divided by those evaluating him on his current .422 winning % and 4 straight non playoff years and on what he has done, verses those that plead for more time and patience in hopes of what the team he assembled will do in the future.

When an employer calls an employee into his office in any business and does a performance review, do you believe he is basing his evaluation on what you have done for his business since you were hired, or what he hopes you will do from this point going forward?.

In Burke's case the actual results show the team is lower in the standings today, then when he took over the job 4 years ago. So believing the team is better on paper is an intangible debate as they're not better on the ice where it counts and is measured by the evidence in hand.
Factually, we all agree the Oilers suck and their management has done a horrible job.

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